Do you think it's possible to use opiates long-term without abusing them?

[Longhauler]

i suppose you treat tolerance differently than most then. i will just keep doubling the dose to get a lesser effect until i either run out of supplies or money, in which case, i take my tolerance breaks. I can take big breaks from opiates and within a few days be back to my former high doses. For me, i was high all day every day so long as i had drugs or money, i couldn't skip a day and definitely not a week; i'm sure tolerance flat lines at some point, i've never hit that point though.

i find kratom kind of similar to dextroamphetamine for some reason, just that smooth stimulation and focus. Kratom's effects are more subtle but definitely remind me more of a stimulant than an opiate, regardless of dose. Perhaps that's why it treats opiate cravings and PAWS so well.

I would guess that if you need to increase the dose, your breaks are simply not long enough for your complete metabolism of mitragynine & 7-hydroxymitragynine. It's a fact that we don't flush out various ''opiate'' molecules at the same rate: different folks get rid of various substances more or less rapidly than others, and the same person may metabolize the same substance at different rates at different times in his/her life, depending for example on the physical shape of the person, and the other substances inducing or inhibiting enzymes that he/she ingests along with a given substance. For example, if you smoke cigarettes you will metabolize caffeine much faster than a non-smoker, because tobacco induces the CYP1A2 enzyme for which caffeine is a substrate. Also, SJW (that I take almost every day, with periodic breaks) is a known inducer of CYP3A4, which is the substrate of many psychoactive drugs.. I'm not sure if mitragynine & 7-hydroxymitragynine are substrates of 3A4 (somebody knows? I tried to find scientific documents on this particular subject to no avail...), but I think it is... And as I mentioned before, rhodiola, another supplement that I regularly take, is known to induce opioid neuropeptides: the Russians, in particular, have done tests using morphine-dependent mice, and the mice who received the rhodiola had substantially less tolerance and wd symptoms than the mice not treated with rhodiola. I do believe that humans treated with rhodiola enjoy the same benefits. And Mirtazapine! another AD that I'm using periodically (and venlafaxine for that matter) are also known to upregulate the opioid neuropeptides.... Additionally, I regularly take threshold doses of dmx on my opioid-free days to further decrease tolerance to kratom. All these things, I believe, partly explain why I'm still able to avoid physical addiction to kratom after 6 years of recreational use.

BUT, as mentioned before, I always skip at least a day between doses, and once in a while up to a week; if I use every other day this week, I will use only once or twice the next, and every 2-3 months, I skip a full week. And don't forget that I control my kratom cravings very effectively with weed and pregabalin (which I RARELY consume on my opioid days): usually, a weed/pregabalin high is enough to completely satisfy me...

It takes a while to get to know your own body regarding its metabolic capacities.. Being an addict for most of your life helps in this process a lot I would say lol.

And yes, just like you, kratom for me acts more like a stimulant than a pure opiate: I never ever nod on kratom, but it never gave me the jitters and paranoia that usually accompany my speed experiences.

Over the years, I refined my methods and my pattern of use, and the knowledge of my own bodily functions increased. Still, I could bet that I would be badly addicted to any other opiate than kratom.. For me, it's crystal clear that if they stupidly ban the substance, they're gonna make it much more difficult for many people to live happily, while helping another big bunch to die using other ''opiates'' in North America.

 

[Longhauler]

For a number of years I have contemplated growing some opium poppies...I have a friend in another state who told me about his experiments...said he grew some and tried it...since then I've thought about doing the same...even bought some seeds to see if they will sprout...yea, they will grow...but I never did it...still, every now and then the thought comes to mind. It'll be easy to do where I live...grow any amount easily. But I resist this idea periodically.

Maybe we can say I am addicted, even I never used opiates before...every now and again, I have to resist...I know how stupid this concept sounds, but where's the difference...addicted to wanting to grow and try opium...lol

Probably best I don't give in.

lol, you're funny

Yes, it's more than probably best if you don't give in... but if you do, I may want to visit your field someday

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Nope.

 

[Longhauler]

Nope.

Hum, thanks for that elaborate answer...

Because YOU can't do it doesn't mean nobody can. And it doesn't mean you never will. But of course, I understand that a dude feeling the necessity to inject his freakin buprenorphine instead of ingesting it normally is thoroughly unable to imagine folks with a better control than him... It also depends who you hang out with: I guess all your friends are just as immature as you are, so you never saw anyone able to get their shit together when it comes to opiates, it's not your fault.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Hum, thanks for that elaborate answer...

Because YOU can't do it doesn't mean nobody can. And it doesn't mean you never will. But of course, I understand that a dude feeling the necessity to inject his freakin buprenorphine instead of ingesting it normally is thoroughly unable to imagine folks with a better control than him... It also depends who you hang out with: I guess all your friends are just as immature as you are, so you never saw anyone able to get their shit together when it comes to opiates, it's not your fault.

Who are you again..?

 

[Longhauler]

Somebody you think is bullshitting you just because you're jealous, I guess

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Somebody you think is bullshitting you just because you're jealous, I guess

Get back to me when you have a little more experience and knowledge as to what the hell you're talking about. Until then, you're irrelevant.. and not sure why you're going out of your way to be confrontational, but nobody even knows who you are man.. Hah. Relax.

 

[Longhauler]

Get back to me when you have a little more experience and knowledge as to what the hell you're talking about. Until then, you're irrelevant.. and not sure why you're going out of your way to be confrontational, but nobody even knows who you are man.. Hah. Relax.

I never had the intention of being confrontational with you, Mr Scagnettie, but your ''Nope'' without further comment sure WAS confrontational, it meant ''I think you're full of shit Mister''. If I misinterpreted your terse post, sorry... And I won't go anywhere, unless someone having the power to do so kicks me out of BL. I'm talking about what I know, period, nothing more, nothing less, and I don't care about your advice. I AM thoroughly relaxed. If you change your attitude with me, I'll change my attitude with you, it's as simple as that. Thank you.

 

[HighonLife]

I don't see exactly what I would gain in telling you guys lies... What would be the point? Acquiring a good rep on BL??

i dont think anyone is accusing you of lying

people are just givin you the opinions n experiences

but you thread title asks if its possible for someone to use long term w/o abusing them but you seem to be defining abuse with physical dependence

imo you are kind of abusing opiates if kratom is your psychological crutch, n im not talkin down or anything, in fact im in a similar situation, i used rx opiates n heroin for years, i was able to stay abstinent from all opiates for over 18months n then after an episode of depression i slowly fell back into using rx opiates (oxymorphone, oxycodone, hydrocodone n methadone) n it didnt take long before i put myself in the position of being physically dependent once again, so i started using kratom given that my tolerance isnt nearly what it used to be even after my little run with the rxs so the kratom still works n i too would say its my psychological crutch, it lifts my mood n gives me energy n makes it where i dont go outta my way to find opiates (tho i have not mastered the art of turnin them down when they come knockin at my door) but i would say i do abuse the kratom, i dont abuse it to the point of tryin to get high off it but i abuse it in the sense that im in no pain yet i feel the need to have some just to improve my day to day functionin n copin in life. i too have no interest in goin back to 'the life' n kratom helps with that while still somewhat satisfyin my desire to be opiated.


this isnt really related but i noticed you said you dont think addiction is a disease, i agree with that but i do believe it is a disorder n the medical community i guess agrees given that opioid addiction is part of the DSM (havin said that i dont take what the DSM or psychologist say as gospel) but i actually have to write a paper in my substance abuse n rehabilitation class n i have to argue from one of three angles, addiction is: chronic disease, acute disease or choice

i think im goin to attempt to argue that it is choice (follow me for a second, i believe addiction is a disorder but for the purposes of this exercise im goin to argue for choice n here is why) i dont like callin it a disease, people dont refer to ADHD, OCD, Bipolar or any of those things diseases they are disorders so personally i just dont like the disease paradigm, while i do not feel addiction is just a choice n its just weak willed people who become addicted, it does stand out to me that anyone with experience in addiction will tell you that in order to quit one has to WANT it, one has to be truly commited and truly want to be clean. so imo by that rational how can one call it a disease, can someone with chrohns disease or lou gherigs disease just decide one day that they dont want this condition n then change it? no, they cant. so i am goin to argue that it is choice (based off of the 3 options i was given, but in my heart it is a disorder like any other disorder, its possible to treat it, its sometimes possible to keep control on the negative aspects of it but the nature of it will always be with the person.

i dont mean to highjack your thread, i just wanted to say that about the abuse v. physical dependence thing you got goin n i threw in my current endevours as a way of bouncing ideas off others with experience


back to the thread, i wouldnt recommend anyone who is a recovering opiate addict to attempt at chippin, im sure there are peeople out there who do it successfully but its just not a good idea in general, tho i do understand those who wish to try, imo its odd that in our society opioids are perfectly acceptable form of treatment with physical pain but its completely taboo to treat emotional/psychological pain with opioids and there is no denying opiates work for some with emotional pain, is using something so physically addicting a good idea for people dealing with psychological problems? maybe not, but there is something there with these chemicals, they do help people in this regard but thats another long topic of conversation

 

[Longhauler]

^^
Thank you for that great comment! I will respond to the best of my abilities as soon as I can.

PS Yes, I have a short fuse at times I feel like I did earn my fucking peace of mind regarding opiates, i.e., the balance I kind of reached with kratom... Just because you're into hard-core IVing, and addicted to death, sure doesn't mean you know better...

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^
Thank you for that great comment! I will respond to the best of my abilities as soon as I can.

PS Yes, I have a short fuse at times I feel like I did earn my fucking peace of mind regarding opiates, i.e., the balance I kind of reached with kratom... Just because you're into hard-core IVing, and addicted to death, sure doesn't mean you know better...

Comparing a kratom addiction or dependency to a serious heroin habit is ridiculous. It's not even in the same ball park.

 

[Benjo Diazepine]

Comparing a kratom addiction or dependency to a serious heroin habit is ridiculous. It's not even in the same ball park.

Not comparable..
But it is a continuum, no?

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Not comparable..
But it is a continuum, no?

Sure it's related... in the sense that they both lead to psychical dependancies.. but the severity of the withdrawals are literally not even close. I don't care how much Kratom you do or for how long.. you'll never experience the kind of hell one goes through kicking H, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, methadone, etc.

 

[Benjo Diazepine]

Sure it's related... in the sense that they both lead to psychical dependancies.. but the severity of the withdrawals are literally not even close. I don't care how much Kratom you do or for how long.. you'll never experience the kind of hell one goes through kicking H, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, methadone, etc.

Some would disagree.. but then again some seem to think kratom isn't addictive at all and is the most beneficiant plant ever bestowed on us from mother nature. I think they're both whacked! But that's a whole other topic.
I do agree with you though.
Of course, one can view IV use as being in a totally different creature too and heroin IV users as having more in common (in a way) with IV users of other drugs rather than pill poppers say. (yes, that's debatable, but you get my point I'm sure. Withdrawal isn't applicable here.)
I've used a lot of opioids by insufflation but never IV and I find IV users to be quite different than oral or otherwise; in the way the drugs work, in the relative damage it causes, and even what the user wants out of the drug.
IV users seem more after the rush while users with other ROA seem more to be after a type of homeostatsis or a state of mind (really just speaking for myself here).
I guess I've gone way off topic! WHOOPS, sorry folks. Here:

*Whatever drug is the worst to withdrawal from is the one you are currently withdrawing from*

 

[HighonLife]

Comparing a kratom addiction or dependency to a serious heroin habit is ridiculous. It's not even in the same ball park.

agreed

Not comparable..
But it is a continuum, no?

i think it could be a continuum, but def w/ kratom being around the bottom

Sure it's related... in the sense that they both lead to psychical dependancies.. but the severity of the withdrawals are literally not even close. I don't care how much Kratom you do or for how long.. you'll never experience the kind of hell one goes through kicking H, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, methadone, etc.

yea, and abusing those opioids over a long peroid of time is different than using kratom n sprinklin in oxy every now n then.

i think what scags is just tryin to say is fuckin around with other opioids over long peroids of time without abusing them is gonna be different then usin kratom. its good that you have been addicted in the past n you are able to control n maintain just using kratom sparingly but its not like you are sayin you used to be addicted to heroin n oxy n now you use heroin n oxy every other day or maybe once a week, cuz thats just hard to do really for anyone, particularly anyone whose previously been addicted. i mean the majority of the people who try things likely heroin dont get addicted but im sure those numbers change dramatically when you use things like that more then a couple times, n 1-4x a week is pretty frequent use really when u think of it, like not gotta have it everyday multiple times a day addicted abuse but its prob still abusive to use opioids 1-4x a week. n you're psychologically dependent so thats probably abusive

 

[Longhauler]

i dont think anyone is accusing you of lying

people are just givin you the opinions n experiences

but you thread title asks if its possible for someone to use long term w/o abusing them but you seem to be defining abuse with physical dependence

imo you are kind of abusing opiates if kratom is your psychological crutch, n im not talkin down or anything, in fact im in a similar situation, i used rx opiates n heroin for years, i was able to stay abstinent from all opiates for over 18months n then after an episode of depression i slowly fell back into using rx opiates (oxymorphone, oxycodone, hydrocodone n methadone) n it didnt take long before i put myself in the position of being physically dependent once again, so i started using kratom given that my tolerance isnt nearly what it used to be even after my little run with the rxs so the kratom still works n i too would say its my psychological crutch, it lifts my mood n gives me energy n makes it where i dont go outta my way to find opiates (tho i have not mastered the art of turnin them down when they come knockin at my door) but i would say i do abuse the kratom, i dont abuse it to the point of tryin to get high off it but i abuse it in the sense that im in no pain yet i feel the need to have some just to improve my day to day functionin n copin in life. i too have no interest in goin back to 'the life' n kratom helps with that while still somewhat satisfyin my desire to be opiated.


this isnt really related but i noticed you said you dont think addiction is a disease, i agree with that but i do believe it is a disorder n the medical community i guess agrees given that opioid addiction is part of the DSM (havin said that i dont take what the DSM or psychologist say as gospel) but i actually have to write a paper in my substance abuse n rehabilitation class n i have to argue from one of three angles, addiction is: chronic disease, acute disease or choice

i think im goin to attempt to argue that it is choice (follow me for a second, i believe addiction is a disorder but for the purposes of this exercise im goin to argue for choice n here is why) i dont like callin it a disease, people dont refer to ADHD, OCD, Bipolar or any of those things diseases they are disorders so personally i just dont like the disease paradigm, while i do not feel addiction is just a choice n its just weak willed people who become addicted, it does stand out to me that anyone with experience in addiction will tell you that in order to quit one has to WANT it, one has to be truly commited and truly want to be clean. so imo by that rational how can one call it a disease, can someone with chrohns disease or lou gherigs disease just decide one day that they dont want this condition n then change it? no, they cant. so i am goin to argue that it is choice (based off of the 3 options i was given, but in my heart it is a disorder like any other disorder, its possible to treat it, its sometimes possible to keep control on the negative aspects of it but the nature of it will always be with the person.

i dont mean to highjack your thread, i just wanted to say that about the abuse v. physical dependence thing you got goin n i threw in my current endevours as a way of bouncing ideas off others with experience


back to the thread, i wouldnt recommend anyone who is a recovering opiate addict to attempt at chippin, im sure there are peeople out there who do it successfully but its just not a good idea in general, tho i do understand those who wish to try, imo its odd that in our society opioids are perfectly acceptable form of treatment with physical pain but its completely taboo to treat emotional/psychological pain with opioids and there is no denying opiates work for some with emotional pain, is using something so physically addicting a good idea for people dealing with psychological problems? maybe not, but there is something there with these chemicals, they do help people in this regard but thats another long topic of conversation

Buddy, I think we basically agree on everything... The only thing I'm trying to say is that kratom allowed me to change my pattern of use and so, to better control the tolerance/physical dependency issues ordinarily associated with of the recreational use of opiates/opioids. I did say repeatedly that I consider myself psychologically addicted to opiates or any substance modulating the opioid endogenous system, for that matter. I just wanted to tell anyone potentially interested in this topic that after many trial and errors in my opiate addict career, I feel confident in saying that I managed to avoid physical addiction to kratom (and to other ''weak'' opiates very infrequently ingested), I've been enjoying it for many years now without abuse, or what could be considered abuse according to the average opiate addict standard, imo. I gave a brief history of my glorious opiate career 8), I've already talked about my method, the other substances I use as antidepressants, adaptogens and stimulants, etc. Please read again some of my previous posts in this thread! Hey! Maybe my method could be patented!! %)

But really... even if I do admit that I'm a tad bit proud of what I consider to be an accomplishment, my intention is not to brag about it. In fact, what really motivates me here is my fear that kratom might get banned in North America. If, by any chance, some policy maker in the States reads this thread, and thinks twice before criminalizing the import, sale and use of kratom, I would be immensely happy... I know I fucking dream, but you have no idea how much a ban of my primary substance of antidepressant treatment, the best fucking thing to cure what I believe to be my chronic opioid PAWS, would fucking piss me off... As I said before, I JUST DON'T WANT to completely stop using, and I don't think I would be able to chip so successfully with codeine, tramadol... or hydromorphone, stuff that I almost never do now, that I don't feel the need to abuse anymore. And I really doubt that some kind of bupe - or worse, methadone - maintenance program would help me better than that extremely effective (for my purpose) South-Asian leaf. Sorry if it sounds like I have a direct financial interest in the import of kratom... unfortunately I don't lol.

Thanks again for your comments. If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to answer them as soon as I can! Or if you wanna chat about anything else, please go ahead!

 

[Longhauler]

Sure it's related... in the sense that they both lead to psychical dependancies.. but the severity of the withdrawals are literally not even close. I don't care how much Kratom you do or for how long.. you'll never experience the kind of hell one goes through kicking H, oxymorphone, hydromorphone, methadone, etc.

Mr Scagnattie, I think we just misunderstood each other... Even if I feel reasonably justified in thinking that your post was offensive, to a certain extent, I may have overreacted... It would be great if our future exchanges (if there are any) could be more even-minded. Please believe that I have nothing against you or your style... I believe everybody should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies as long as they don't purposefully hurt others in the process. I felt attacked and reacted with some exaggeration, now I'm more than willing to turn the page...

Of course addiction to kratom is much less... heavy than addiction to strong opiates, and even less than an addiction to opiates intravenously administered... What makes you believe that I could think otherwise?? But it still could be directly compared, whatever you may say, if only because kratom really does modulate the same neurotransmitters and receptors in the brain.. 7-hydroxymitragynine may only be a trace molecule in some kratom strains, but it's still 17 times more potent as a MOR agonist than morphine, just fyi. To be heavily addicted to kratom is no joke, and abrupt cessation in this situation is no fucking walk in the park, and whatever you may say, it IS comparable to other opioid dependencies in this respect also... Yeah yeah, I perfectly agree that abrupt cessation of a heavy addiction to injected opiates might be more painful and last longer... so what?? As somebody else said, and whatever you may say, it IS a continuum. The only differences with the injection moa, as far as I know, is the flash, the greater efficacy of the same doses... and the increased risk of death... No other thing differentiates an addiction to a strong opiate that is orally ingested from another that is injected: in fact, if a greater amount of drug circulates daily in my veins as a result of my oral ingestion, my addiction will be technically heavier, and my withdrawals will be more severe, than yours even if you injected your dope and enjoyed the flash (and the greater risk of death).

What is different with kratom, in my opinion, is that the substance is much less abusable. I just can't take as much kratom as would be necessary for a strong euphoria on par with the one provided by ''true'' opiates, because each and every time I tried, what i experienced instead was a fucking dysphoric, extremely strong nausea... I quickly learned that with kratom, really, less is more. 8( The optimal dose won't get me high and powerfully euphoric, but it sure will cheer me up, kill my headache if I have one, give me stamina and motivation.. which is all I need really. I don't think that kratom is a miraculous plant, right for everybody, but for those who want to try an opiate, it is much safer than the other ones... And as far as I'm concerned, for someone who abused opiates for the greater part of his life, it is the best maintenance therapy, less dangerous and addictive than bupe or methadone..

An more than anything else, it is the only ''opiate'' that I learned to use reasonably.

Now, if you want to say that I'm lying about my controlled use of kratom, there's not much I can add to prove my point, I'm afraid... But if you can manage to suspend your judgement for the sake of argumentation, or talk about any other subject... that would be cool! Cheers my friend!

 

[HighonLife]

But really... even if I do admit that I'm a tad bit proud of what I consider to be an accomplishment, my intention is not to brag about it. In fact, what really motivates me here is my fear that kratom might get banned in North America. If, by any chance, some policy maker in the States reads this thread, and thinks twice before criminalizing the import, sale and use of kratom, I would be immensely happy... I know I fucking dream, but you have no idea how much a ban of my primary substance of antidepressant treatment, the best fucking thing to cure what I believe to be my chronic opioid PAWS, would fucking piss me off... As I said before, I JUST DON'T WANT to completely stop using, and I don't think I would be able to chip so successfully with codeine, tramadol... or hydromorphone, stuff that I almost never do now, that I don't feel the need to abuse anymore. And I really doubt that some kind of bupe - or worse, methadone - maintenance program would help me better than that extremely effective (for my purpose) South-Asian leaf. Sorry if it sounds like I have a direct financial interest in the import of kratom... unfortunately I don't lol.

Thanks again for your comments. If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to answer them as soon as I can! Or if you wanna chat about anything else, please go ahead!

yea, unfortunately kratom seems to recieve more n more attention everyday, i just saw some in DiTM about the new legal highs: kratom n mxe. well we all know kratom is hardly new, plants been around n in use in its native environment for centuries and apparently has even been used in the US for a few decades by the herbal supplement crowd as a natural pain reliever, similar to the way kava kava had been used in the US for 30 or maybe more years relatively under the radar but when head shops n gas stations start sellin the stuff it seems to lose its legitimacy n becomes seen as some new intoxicant marketed towards kids who cant get real drugs. unfortunately i doubt any law maker will be reading this little exerpt on BL and even if they did im not certain your story is what they would want to protect the plant for, politicians arent gonna say oh this plant helps out addicts maintain n control normal lives, if a politician was to support kratom legalities i would think they would do it under the guise of protecting the herbal community who has used the plant in the US successfully (w/o much incident is what i mean by that) for decades. but even then, call me a paranoid conspiracy theorists but if kratom becomes a bigger deal because of stories like yours and mine then pharmacuetical lobbyists would then do thier part in suading the government into believing its a legal high for kids n needs to be banned this way everyone has to resort to pharmacuetical opioid maintenance drugs. i mean im not gonna sit here n say kratom can hold its own with bupe n methadone but if there is enough people out there who use kratom the way you n myself do then the Rx companies just see us as a small piece of the pie that they can grab at by persuading legislation to schedule kratom. so while i see your point n think you're heart is in the right place im not convinced it would have any effect on policy makers even if they were to somehow see your story here


but changin public policy is really secondary to the real thing go on here, if you've been addicted to opioids in the past and kratom allows you to be w/o more destructive opioids and improve your quality of life then thats really all that matters, i myself dont wanna use kratom for long, i just saw it as a logical next step once i realised i was playin with fire again and could go either way with the opiates, n im fortunate enough that i didnt take my tolerance back to what it used to be or else im not certain kratom would of helped, n i think thats why there is gonna be some hate around the boards when comparing kratom and other opioid addictions cause there are seasoned junkies around here who unfortunately wont get the same benefits from kratom until they lower their tolerance, and thats easier said then done as we all know

anyways im ramblin now n lost my train of thought n where im goin with this but yea

*forrest gump voice*
guess that's all i have to say about that

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Mr Scagnattie, I think we just misunderstood each other... Even if I feel reasonably justified in thinking that your post was offensive, to a certain extent, I may have overreacted... It would be great if our future exchanges (if there are any) could be more even-minded. Please believe that I have nothing against you or your style... I believe everybody should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies as long as they don't purposefully hurt others in the process. I felt attacked and reacted with some exaggeration, now I'm more than willing to turn the page...

Of course addiction to kratom is much less... heavy than addiction to strong opiates, and even less than an addiction to opiates intravenously administered... What makes you believe that I could think otherwise?? But it still could be directly compared, whatever you may say, if only because kratom really does modulate the same neurotransmitters and receptors in the brain.. 7-hydroxymitragynine may only be a trace molecule in some kratom strains, but it's still 17 times more potent as a MOR agonist than morphine, just fyi. To be heavily addicted to kratom is no joke, and abrupt cessation in this situation is no fucking walk in the park, and whatever you may say, it IS comparable to other opioid dependencies in this respect also... Yeah yeah, I perfectly agree that abrupt cessation of a heavy addiction to injected opiates might be more painful and last longer... so what?? As somebody else said, and whatever you may say, it IS a continuum. The only differences with the injection moa, as far as I know, is the flash, the greater efficacy of the same doses... and the increased risk of death... No other thing differentiates an addiction to a strong opiate that is orally ingested from another that is injected: in fact, if a greater amount of drug circulates daily in my veins as a result of my oral ingestion, my addiction will be technically heavier, and my withdrawals will be more severe, than yours even if you injected your dope and enjoyed the flash (and the greater risk of death).

What is different with kratom, in my opinion, is that the substance is much less abusable. I just can't take as much kratom as would be necessary for a strong euphoria on par with the one provided by ''true'' opiates, because each and every time I tried, what i experienced instead was a fucking dysphoric, extremely strong nausea... I quickly learned that with kratom, really, less is more. 8( The optimal dose won't get me high and powerfully euphoric, but it sure will cheer me up, kill my headache if I have one, give me stamina and motivation.. which is all I need really. I don't think that kratom is a miraculous plant, right for everybody, but for those who want to try an opiate, it is much safer than the other ones... And as far as I'm concerned, for someone who abused opiates for the greater part of his life, it is the best maintenance therapy, less dangerous and addictive than bupe or methadone..

An more than anything else, it is the only ''opiate'' that I learned to use reasonably.

Now, if you want to say that I'm lying about my controlled use of kratom, there's not much I can add to prove my point, I'm afraid... But if you can manage to suspend your judgement for the sake of argumentation, or talk about any other subject... that would be cool! Cheers my friend!

Even a light to moderate heroin habit, (not even IV'ed, but snorted for example) is going to be lightyears harder a kick than even the worse Kratom habit.. and I really don't think anybody whose even semi-expierenced with opiates and dependency can debate that fact..

Either way, it's not impressive or cool to be more strung out than somebody else.. so you don't have to try and justify how bad your problem is.

Kratom doesn't even work for people with normal sized H habits or other strong opiate habits. No matter how much you take. I agree it is a great tool for maintenance or detox and most people would definitely rather take it than bupe or methadone, but the fact of the matter is that if you even have a mediocre habit, Kratom is not going to touch your withdrawals. Which is really unfortunate because I would love to be able to use Kratom for that purpose, but it's just not realistic for somebody with my using history. If ones addiction is at the level where Kratom will be effective, than I say go for it, it's a great tool

 

[RobotRipping]

kratom and immodium have made hydromorphone and morphine withdrawal bearable for me. My habit wasn't huge but 8mg hydromoprone at once is what i would need for great effects. Even after doing that for 5 days, i switched back to codeine then to kratom and then immodium with maybe 2-3 days of uncomfrotableness.

i hope they ban kratom then just throw us all on suboxone. fuckers. i guess that's the addict in me talking though, kratom is very beneficial for PAWS even if you're a hardcore IV addict, it will help with
PAWS.

funny enough i had to use kratom to get me off codeine lol. it's actually a better feeling drug than codeine by all means but gobbling down 20 capsules is what sometimes makes me go for codeine instead then i end up in the opiate cycle again.

if you're an addict or have been one, then i don't really think you can use opiates long term without slipping up, opiates just grab you so fucking hard once you've been addicted. more than 2-3 days on hydromorphone or morphine and i can expect a fucking withdrawal, the body just doesn't forget that shit. My argument is that kratom is the exception here as it's hardly an opioid and for most people, it acts mostly as a stimulant, regardless of dose, unless there are studies showing otherwise.

even just with codeine, i'll keep throwing myself in and out of mild shitty withdrawal followed by mild shitty PAWS. If i had more access to dilaudid i'd be fucked because there's just no way in hell i can use that stuff without becoming addictive about it.