Do you have to be in full withdrawl b4 taking SUBUTEX

[themystic13]

Im sorry if this has already been covered, but im having trouble finding a topic or a directly related situation.

So here's whats up:

SWIM has been off and on heroin for the last few years. Swim is doing about a .5- one gram a day of Inland Northwest tar (not very good quality) and is trying to quite (after about a year now of doing it again) but is having huge issues making it the full 24 hrs without caving. The last time SWIM took a suboxone, she swore it didnt do anything for her, but felt much better after her normal dosing of H.
SWIM decided to get subutex this time to try kicking. All of SWIMS friends swear that they didnt have to go through withdrawl before taking their subutex. Swim would love this, but is very afraid of p/w.

Does anyone have any PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, and not just speculation (which no offense, seems to make up alot of these forum answers) with taking SUBUTEX before 24 hrs of w/d?
I have read that there really is no difference between subutex/suboxone and that the naloxone hardly ever even makes it orally- and is just to prevent IV use, but INTERNET RESEARCH ASIDE- I want other's actual experience- or atleast someone you know personally's experience.


Thank you & Salame, my Earth Brothers and Sisters

 

[TheCount420]

Usually for me 12 hours is more then enough for me to take Suboxone or subutex. I have never gone into precip withdrawals either though..

 

[The Doc.]

Subutex does cause PWDs yes its the buprenorphine( the opioid in subutex/suboxone) that causes it not the naloxone You got to listen to your body you cant go by a time frame because everyone metabolises substances at different rates for example I only wait 4-6 hours after heroin to dose suboxone/subutex but some people need to wait up to 48 hours because heroin actually stays in their system for that long due to slow metabolism. So wait till your feeling physically sick with a runny nose, achy joints, nausea, diereah, and anxiety/restless legs. If you google the COWS scale you can measure how severe your withdrawal is, a score of 26 is best to be at but if your really miserable and been PHYSICALLY(not mentally) sick for a while chances are your ready to take your subutex/suboxone. Also if you inject suboxone or subutex instead of take it sublingually while inducting from heroin to suboxone the chances of going into PWDs are a lot higher due to the high dose of buprenorphine being pushed through the BBB a lot quicker than sublingual does and all at once. The naloxone in suboxone plays a small role in PWDs only when IVing because although naloxone wont affect buprenorphine even when injected, it will assist in helping rip off the heroin from your receptor's though causing even worse PWDs. I have injected suboxone many times and been fine the naloxone does nothing to the buprenorphine since bupe binds to the receptors tighter than naloxone does, but again this is only as long as I haven't done heroin in the past 24 hours the only benefit to IV though is to have no waste (IV B/A=100% and sublingual B/A=30 percent) it doesn't get you much higher than taking it sublingually though (not worth the risk) . Another way to avoid precipitated withdrawal with suboxone and subutex is to use a small first dose such as 1mg sublingually then after taking the 1mg wait for it to kick in (you should feel fine with a low dose because its mainly high doses of bupe which cause PWDs) then if you feel the need to take another 1 or 2mgs or how ever much it takes to stave off withdrawal. This is smarter than just dosing a whole 4 or 8mgs at once if you are prone to PWDs.

 

[TheCount420]

You get sick just 4 to 6 hours after doing a shot of dope that you already need subs??

 

[The Doc.]

You get sick just 4 to 6 hours after doing a shot of dope that you already need subs??

Yes I had to use heroin every 2 hours back in the day before I went on bupe. I would do my last shot about 10oclock at night then my body would always wake up drenched in sweat, shivering cold sick as hell at around 2am every night and if I didn't have more dope to shoot then I couldnt go back to sleep I would lay there till I had to go to work at 7. Then if i shot up again to go back to sleep I would wake up again about 5am dope sick once again. Every time I've went on to sub's by about the 4 hour mark I feel ready to dose my first Suboxone. Its just my extremely fast metabolism I am weird that way it used to be slow as a kid and I was huge 250 pounds at only age 12 but these days as im older no matter how much I eat or however many nutritional supplements/meal replacments I take I can never gain weight.

 

[Emme80]

^(just along that note) I think that long term opiates just messes up /changes some basic body functions-reactions, timelines, be it permanent & some non- permanent. Slow metabolism-fast metabolism...gut function, nerves, etc. Such a Shame. Does indeed suck.

 

[The Doc.]

Yes I've thought about that too emme since I've been on them constantly since I was a kid. I was just talking to a women about this at the methadone clinic last night while telling her about suboxone and she was jealous cause methadone caused her to gain so much weight since she has been on it. I told her how I was really heavy as a kid then my metabolism changed and she was all like well how do you speed up your metabolism? Lol I just said well I didn't do it on purpose I just got older I suppose.

 

[Emme80]

Lol .. Glad to say it didn't put me back that far- already feel my metaboloization changing(always a fast metabolized- tiny little chic)
There's always speed...(JOKE)

 

[themystic13]

Okay I asked for personal experience. Ive already heard from you, Train spotter, and ive already heard all of that.

I dont agree with it though. Thats why I asked for EXPERIENCES.

 

[The Doc.]

Wait whats your reasoning for not agreeing with the statement subutex/pure buprenorphine causes PWDs?
You just said i dont agree with what we all said but never gave us a reason why you think buprenorphine doesn't cause precipitated withdrawal.

I dont know how much more experience you want almost all of us have done subutex before, you've got your answer if you want to ignore it that's up to you. Subutex isnt common around lots of places in the world
So you may not find a personal experience from someone right now who took subutex but ive read many reports from people who say subutex caused them precipitated withdrawal and know of a friend of a friend who had it happen

Or Is this what you wanted to hear?- Subutex will not cause PWDs and you will be perfectly fine to take it while high on other opiates since naloxone causes PWDd and there is no naloxone in subutex, the world is perfect and everybody is happy happy.

There you go you can choose to belive this version of events instead of the truth if it makes you happy.

Here is one thread with PERSONAL experience on subutex, it took me 10 seconds to find. Read down the page

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/500248-Precipitated-WD-with-Subutex

Explain why you dont belive our statements and don't just say i dont agree while talking down to us like we are dumb children. You can choose to take this advice or not all we can do is give it to you. Ive never purposly put myself through PWDs to see if the studies are wrong about bupe causing PWDs and im not about to because you still wont believe anyone from the sounds of it. You could do a half gram of heroin then shoot some subutex and see for yourself if you dont believe still, We're not going to anytime soon. There are too many stories on here of people getting extremely sick taking bupe while still on other opiates it doesnt sound like fun.

Sorry if i took it the wrong way if you were not trying to be a dick but i cant tell if you were being an ass to us or if your one of those curious people who see a wet paint sign or a danger do not use sign but choose to ignore it and end up covered in paint or hurting yourself?