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Do we live in a determined world?

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thesoundofmotion

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May 1, 2007
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What in our world is on a determined path?

Perhaps we can say the Earth and everything orbiting the sun and other systems in the cosmos is on a determined path.

Is that true? Do we know that for sure. I know classical science would believe in something like this. I believe Quantum Physics takes a different approach although I am not really that familiar with either of them.

What about us? Humans. Are our lives completely determined or are they not?

It's a good thought to know that some things are apart of our world and just happen as they happen. For instance you see a pretty girl and you get aroused. There can't be anything morally right or wrong about that. It's nature.

Sometimes I believe this is all too magnificent that it could not just be free-will or randomness or whatever you want to speak.

Sometimes I wish I could just cut out all the terminology and equations (although I hardly know any) and really understand what the Universe is about and how it really is. The deterministic world is one that really gets to me, especially regarding human behavior. For if it's all on a determined path than you raise a lot of questions about morality.

At the same time, is the Earth on a determined path but we are not? Is that what is really going on?

If we could take language out of all of this, would we somehow understand it all?

Thoughts?
 
I wonder about this but I've yet to find any definite satisfying answer. Some things just seem to be out of our control but at the same time I've found that we have such creative power if we become aware of it. Being conscious of what drives drives us seems to give more freedom but perhaps becoming conscious is just part of a path that is out of our control.

I just spent two weeks chasing after an idea and trying to make it happen. I put every ounce of energy into trying to clarify it and I wore myself into the ground. Then finally one day I was so exhausted and willing to give up on it. And then it finally became clear after all that stress. So was it me who created that from pushing myself? Or was it just sitting there waiting and guaranteed to come at any moment? Was the entire process pre-scripted? I have no idea. I'm curious about these things but I continue to wonder.
 
The question I dreamed was " are there moments of choice where everything is in perfect balance"? & I believe the answer is yes on all levels, altho this is obviously a guess - but I believe in infinity so then of course it's a simple conclusion to come to.
 
I think human thought is probabilistic as opposed to deterministic.
For instance, a human will observe something and will make a choice. We don't know what choice he is going to make, but if we know the observed event then we would have an idea of what he might do. But we still have no idea. Even if it was as simple as the man turning around and running away, he has an infinite number of path choices. It all comes down to how the electrons in his head move, which we cannot determine, but only guess. So even if a bunch of different people witnessed the same event, the fact that they all have different brains will lead them to different decisions, but its also that those bastard electrons are swerving all over the place and those are different for everyone, too.

And so we have an illusion of free will.
 
I wonder if at the atomic level a particle may choose to move one way or another if it were in a state of equilibrium, perhaps I haven't expressed that particularly well.
Like in the big bang hypothesis say - yeah I know it's called a theory now & may even have gained empirical facthood status.
Maybe particles cannot choose to do anything ?
 
thesoundofmotion said:
What in our world is on a determined path?

Perhaps we can say the Earth and everything orbiting the sun and other systems in the cosmos is on a determined path.

Is that true? Do we know that for sure. I know classical science would believe in something like this. I believe Quantum Physics takes a different approach although I am not really that familiar with either of them.
Click to expand...
Gravity is gravity is gravity. The earth is trapped in an orbit.

thesoundofmotion said:
What about us? Humans. Are our lives completely determined or are they not?
Click to expand...
Scientifically yes, free will is an illusion. (scientifically) and everything that has and will happened was pre determined at the big bang.

thesoundofmotion said:
Sometimes I believe this is all too magnificent that it could not just be free-will or randomness or whatever you want to speak.
Click to expand...
See above

thesoundofmotion said:
Sometimes I wish I could just cut out all the terminology and equations (although I hardly know any) and really understand what the Universe is about and how it really is. The deterministic world is one that really gets to me, especially regarding human behavior. For if it's all on a determined path than you raise a lot of questions about morality.
Click to expand...
How a raven like a writing desk?
The greatest thing you can do for yourself in this universe is to accept the fact that there are things beyond human comprehension and calculation. I recently saw this idea that I've had for a long time in the movie Pi. which was an excellence film if you understand it.
This does not mean to except ignorance or give up study. But often men are seen writhing in agony and torturing themselves over un solvable problems. Like what happens if an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
Find your peace in this world friend and live every day as you were going to pass. do your best to not hate anyone. (for hate only perpetuates the suffering that made you hate something in the first place.) Respect the life around you and be balenced. Extremism is hardly the answer. but sometime sit is what is needed to bring balance. In which case acting to balance the scales is practicing balance. And balance is the foundation of peace.
 
Legerity said:
I wonder about this but I've yet to find any definite satisfying answer. Some things just seem to be out of our control but at the same time I've found that we have such creative power if we become aware of it. Being conscious of what drives drives us seems to give more freedom but perhaps becoming conscious is just part of a path that is out of our control.

I just spent two weeks chasing after an idea and trying to make it happen. I put every ounce of energy into trying to clarify it and I wore myself into the ground. Then finally one day I was so exhausted and willing to give up on it. And then it finally became clear after all that stress. So was it me who created that from pushing myself? Or was it just sitting there waiting and guaranteed to come at any moment? Was the entire process pre-scripted? I have no idea. I'm curious about these things but I continue to wonder.
Click to expand...

"By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try. The world is beyond the winning."
Lao Tzu

I don't know either, but it is uncanny how often I encounter this!
I must admit I believe that everything is random (neither Stephen Hawking nor any of the religions agree with me on this but it is my gut feeling). I feel like my/our task is to draw meaning from a random existence. Why? The closest I can come is that aligning everything as close to compassion as possible feels better.
 
herbavore said:
"By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try. The world is beyond the winning."
Lao Tzu

I don't know either, but it is uncanny how often I encounter this!
I must admit I believe that everything is random (neither Stephen Hawking nor any of the religions agree with me on this but it is my gut feeling). I feel like my/our task is to draw meaning from a random existence. Why? The closest I can come is that aligning everything as close to compassion as possible feels better.
Click to expand...

Wu wei My friend. Live naturally. and follow YOUR path
 
My intitial reaction says no, it appears to be randomness. But the big bang represented an intial action or input of energy. And everything since then has been a reaction dating back to that. Energy increases orderdness in the universe or enthalpy. Hydrogen to helium to the stars are atomic factories making ever more complex atoms, those atoms formed molecules- macromolecules to enzymes to life. Which is ever more ordered and structured. The list goes on. In a way knowing the energy characteristics of a drop of water in a pond you could decipher the ripples it will make.

So it is determined, but is of a complexity which can probably never be fully understood. But I think we should still try, as sitting around praying for knowledge seems to be the least effective route.
 
if the big bang created the univers what created the big bang ?
some say there was a big bang before it and one before that and its a endless flow of big bangs

here is a fun carl sagan video about that : Hindu concept of the origin of the Universe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EyAKFi3_Xg

so where does it began ?
where is the zero point
but then what is a zero point if its 0
it aint, zero never is but always is at the same time
where do we start time, we start it now
thats what science do, it talks about the past from this very instance
how do we observe determinism, we do it from here and now
thats from a inside subjective experience
and even if you could create a computer to analyze all the data of the universe that we have now to understand precisely where we are heading we could not get the answer because every moments creates more data
i mean even if that god like computer would be our brain we still could not gather all the data
so we can see determinism from a outside point of view, cause it simply makes total sense
but from a inside point of view you dont know what is gonna happens, so its about free will
but then you are bound to be free, you cant free yourself from free will, its a paradox
you are determine to be free and free to determine
opposites are complimentary
its a concept well used in eastern philosophies but in western school of thoughts its all about linear thinking, its a line and its going somewhere and if you put the beginning of that line with the end you then call it circular logic and its view as a bad thing
but then circular logic is what moves you forward if you are centered with your heart in the middle, like a wheel on a car

time is like a coin
if its blue on one side and we call it the past
and if its yellow on one side and we call it the future
then once you roll the coin youll see it green from all angle and its gonna be called the present
its a continuum

so you are free to determine your freeness to determine your freeness to determine your freeness to determine....
cuz the present keeps on rolling by conjecting the past into the future
it starts from now
not from the big bang
or else you get caught up in a loop
what created the big bang that created the big bang that...
and if its nothing what created nothing that created nothing that....
if you get caught up in those loops you are not centered in the present
the present creates the present that creates the present...
and its ever present and you are living it
its good if you are centered
you are free to determine
and you determine that you are free

ta dam ; )
 
I don't seem to wind up in as much circular reasoning as you have postulated. Things go from a high energy state to a low on until more energy is absorbed into the system. The level of order is determined by the level energy. However there appears to be an evolutionary component to ordered systems. If these reasoning seem linear it is because of the limitations of written word and stream of consciousness.
 
I dont even know what half the people here are talking about anymore


but sometimes i wonder if ancient civilizations were actually far more intelligent with themselves than we are now.
 
everything that has and will happened was pre determined at the big bang
Click to expand...
That's an awfully bold claim given the development of quantum theory. Is it pre-determined whether this astatine atom I have is going to decay at any particular moment?
 
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