Opioids Do people actually like methadone recreationally?

[Pissed_and_messed]

I get euphoria of subutex and I don't give a fuck if my sphincters are constricting or not.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

You'll find that even a drug as "shitty" as Buprenorphine can produce a thriving community of addicts who are more than happy to use it.

I have found that once you have taken opioids long enough, they might act more euphoric than in the beginning.

 

[Rachrach]

"We are not in a pissing contest here"...

Oh, is that why your ass came in here & turned it into one?

Opioid rotation DOES address tolerance you imbecile. I've done it myself a million fucking times.
Have a high tolerance to heroin? Try using hydrocodone/tramadol/etc for a few days while your heroin tolerance goes down. Incredibly simple fucking concept that you can't seem to grasp, because it would shatter your ego.

What do you think would cause lack of analgesia? Gee, I wonder if a high tolerance could?

We aren't talking about people in hospice. Chronic pain patients ALSO use opioid rotation. Opioid rotation in general can benefit anyone, a junkie, a chronic pain patient or some one in hospice.

No actually, I don't "like methadone" per se, I hardly have any experience with methadone except using it recreationally in the past. And it indeed give me a subjective euphoria. Not the same as heroin euphoria but that's an obvious given.

The OP asked if methadone is recreational. I said yes because recreational effects are subjective. Some people enjoy drinking, but I don't. Some people enjoy huffing air duster, but I don't. And I bet all of the people that do would describe it as being 'recreational' or 'euphoric'. Who am I to tell them "Well no, that's impossible that you feel that way!"...

Then you come in here & start talking about "the morphine rule" and how it's impossible for anyone to get euphoria from methadone (basically dismissing everyone's experiences in here). So who's really moving goalposts? Euphoria isn't even necessarily needed for 'recreation' anyway.

Whether or not a drug gives a rush doesn't mean it isn't capable of being euphoric or recreational either. I like how you generalize all "junkies" too, as if we're all a monolith.

You're not educating anyone by trying to argue with me, so you've already failed at your stated mission.

Excuse me if I ignore the insults and deal with any actual points you made.

How can Opioid Rotation deal with Tolerance, like you claim. All opioids are interchangable apart from ROA, half-life, euphoria & Receptor Affinity. Tolerance is tolerance. You cannot defeat the Tolerance of any opioid by simply using a different opioid (excepting Loperamide but that is simply a Blood to Brain issue).

Your subjective opinions & experiences have nothing to do with anyone else's. How will Rotating types of opioids be advantageous to one's Tolerance?

If you are a heroin addict you will be in the throes of physical withdrawal if you attempt to sate your addiction with hydrocodone, never mind Tramadol. The latter is a highly selective substance with a therapeutic ceiling. Even then it is like nabulphine in that it is gender-biased & for some it has zero effect at all, again, like nabulphine.

Next, you conflate analgesic plateau with Tolerance. They are not synonymous to one another. Medical professionals rarely Rotate opioids at all. When they actually do so, it is due to 1 of 2 things (I reckon that this will be the third time stating it):

1] Allergic reaction(s).

2] Poor or negative responsiveness.

Neither of the two have anything to do with Tolerance (i.e. requiring a higher dosage, since IF a substance is Rotated, ignoring the issue of Allergy(ies), it is only after optimal titration.

You on the other hand that Rotation is a tool to defy psychoactive Tolerance, as in, "I do not get as high as I think I should so I rotate opioids."

As for the rest, just more insults.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

"Tolerance is tolerance"

That statement is not exactly true. Tolerance can be caused by numerous factors and one good example is metabolic tolerance. With metabolic tolerance you clear a specific drug from your system more quickly due to increase of hepatic enzymes for example. This is independent of any down regulation happening to mu opioid receptors, the reward circuits involved, or regulation of adenylate cyclase.

If you metabolize heroin really well for example, it gets cleared faster but if you introduce a different opioid such as a fentanyl or nitazine you can bypass that metabolic tolerance entirely as long as there aren't overlapping metabolic pathways

Please try to keep things civil

 

[SoCalShordie]

Man, I’ve been to the methadone clinic and I never felt like any kind of buzz from methadone. Granted I got up to only 60mg but I have had way better experiences with suboxone when I was on it in the beginning.

Just keep seeing people talk about getting high on methadone on other platforms. I just never really found it recreational at all.

I was on methadone for years and i always felt a slight “buzz” just enough to keep the cravings away. I also knew a co-worker back when I was dancing at spearmint rhino who took methadone pills recreationally. She had a scrip & everything.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I wouldn't bother with the guy. But I understand if you wanna go on in hopes they could be able to argument.

Yeah I'm good.

I got diagnosed with a heart arrhythmia over a week ago. I went from living life to now living with feeling like im dying at least 10-15 times a day. so I'm definitely not interested in dealing with people like this. lol No stress for me.

People like this love to argue for the sake of arguing, because if they admit they're wrong, then it damages their fragile ego. Dudes not even making sense or staying on topic & purposely trying to be argumentative. People like this don't even deserve any respect here, they should be laughed at & put their place & then everyone moves on.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Yeah I'm good.

I got diagnosed with a heart arrhythmia over a week ago. I went from living life to now living with feeling like im dying at least 10-15 times a day. so I'm definitely not interested in dealing with people like this. lol No stress for me.

People like this love to argue for the sake of arguing, because if they admit they're wrong, then it damages their fragile ego. Dudes not even making sense or staying on topic & purposely trying to be argumentative. People like this don't even deserve any respect here, they should be laughed at & put their place & then everyone moves on.

Out of curiosity, do you have long QT?

 

[Keif' Richards]

I thunk we are right in stating that Opioid tolerance is pretty much absolute due to cross tolerance (the same receptors are used for any drug defined as an Opioid agonist).

I think prescribers are doing what little they feel they can with the idea of Opioid rotation. If we say the efficacy of Opioids for a given patient is a factor of 100, maybe the can squeeze another 10 out of that situation by switching the Opioid.

It's not a miracle or anything, but it is something. There are clearly subtleties even between Opioid agoniss that we still don't fully understand, why do some people love Oxycodone the most, others Heroin... there is clearly something going on influencing these decisions.

Also, some Opioids like the namesake of this thread, methadone possess auxiliary effects like N-Methyl-D-Aspartate (NMDA) antagonism that make them suited for certain types of pain.

In the end, our knowledge is limited regarding some of what we ate trying to define here. Sorry for typos I'm on my phone

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Out of curiosity, do you have long QT?

Nah, thankfully not.
I have PVCs apparently.

I had been noticing over the past 2 years or so, that once in awhile, I'd have this strange sensation like the top of my stomach was flip flopping around. Or like my heart was stopping. Felt like how it feels when you get jump-scared. But I wasn't too bothered at first cause it would only happen a few times in a 24hr period & then weeks/months would go by before it happened again. So although I wondered wtf it was, it didn't bother me too much since it rarely happened.

But then at the beginning of this month, I was getting over a lung infection & feeling really tired, so I increased my caffeine intake. Plus I was on an albuterol inhaler.
And one night I was so tired & bored & done with life, that I took 50mg of ephedrine & a small dose of shrooms.

And then the next day, I noticed I had that funny flip flopping sensation happening again, except it happened like 15 times in the first two hours of being awake.

And then it continued to keep doing it for the next few days until I finally went to the ER. Cause it was scaring the shit out of me.

And the ER doc knew right away what it was & hooked me up to some heart monitor & an ekg. And we waited for the sensation to happen, which it did thankfully. And they caught it on the machine & he said "yup, that's a PVC". So then they did a chest xray on my heart. They said my heart looked really good & sounded good. So it's not heart disease causing it. Doctor said it was probably caffeine + ephedrine + stressed that caused it. He said it should go away. but I don't know if he was just saying that to keep me clam or be positive or if he was really confident that it would go away. From what I've read, it does go away for some people. And for others it gets worse or is life long.

So I've been high-anxiety ever since.

I cut all caffeine out of my diet (24 years of drinking coffee/energy drinks every day) & started taking coQ10, l-carnitine & l-arginine.
And so far it seems like it has gotten better. It hasn't disappeared completely, but the frequency of when I get that strange sensation has gone down & when it does happen, it's not as intense & scary as it was just a week ago. So I have hope that it'll go away or at least go back to being so infrequent that I can tolerate & deal with it.

I was a mess for a few days when it was happening all day, every day, cause I thought I was gonna be stuck feeling that way forever now. And I don't know how anyone can put up with it, since it seems like it sets off my fight or flight response every time I'd get that freaky sensation. Felt like my life was over, but it does seem to be getting a lot better. I should find out more from my regular doc soon. Hopefully it'll all be good news. Cutting caffeine has been kind of shitty though, as I definitely notice I'm more groggy & grumpy when I get up in the morning & feel pretty sluggish. But maybe it'll be worth it to cut caffeine in the end anyway.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I thunk we are right in stating that Opioid tolerance is pretty much absolute due to cross tolerance (the same receptors are used for any drug defined as an Opioid agonist).

I think prescribers are doing what little they feel they can with the idea of Opioid rotation. If we say the efficacy of Opioids for a given patient is a factor of 100, maybe the can squeeze another 10 out of that situation by switching the Opioid.

It's not a miracle or anything, but it is something. There are clearly subtleties even between Opioid agoniss that we still don't fully understand, why do some people love Oxycodone the most, others Heroin... there is clearly something going on influencing these decisions.

Also, some Opioids like the namesake of this thread, methadone possess auxiliary effects like N-Methyl-D-Aspartate (NMDA) antagonism that make them suited for certain types of pain.

In the end, our knowledge is limited regarding some of what we ate trying to define here. Sorry for typos I'm on my phone

Here's another example...

Patient is on tramadol for months/years... it stops working. So doc switches to heroin (this scenario would never happen, but bare with me) and then suddenly the patient gets pain relief again. You can have a tolerance to less potent opioid & then switch to a more potent one & get relief again.

So potency, dosage, metabolism, etc.. all play a role in why opioid rotation can be helpful.

Not getting relief from codeine? Switch to tramadol. Not getting relief from tramadol? Switch to hydrocodone & on & on until the patient finds relief again.

And if the patient is tolerant to a potent full agonist, they can also switch to a less potent agonist for a number of days while their tolerances goes down for the more potent one.

I thought everybody knew this. lol

So I have no idea why this Rachrach person even wants to argue about any of this.
And as you stated, not all opioids are cross tolerant either.


I use to do this myself years & years ago. I was tolerant to buprenorphine, so I'd switch to tramadol (when I had access to it) for about 3-5 days & then when I'd go to take my buprenorphine again, I'd get some relief from it.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Here's another example...

Patient is on tramadol for months/years... it stops working. So doc switches to heroin (this scenario would never happen, but bare with me) and then suddenly the patient gets pain relief again. You can have a tolerance to less potent opioid & then switch to a more potent one & get relief again.

So potency, dosage, metabolism, etc.. all play a role in why opioid rotation can be helpful.

Not getting relief from codeine? Switch to tramadol. Not getting relief from tramadol? Switch to hydrocodone & on & on until the patient finds relief again.

And if the patient is tolerant to a potent full agonist, they can also switch to a less potent agonist for a number of days while their tolerances goes down for the more potent one.

I thought everybody knew this. lol

So I have no idea why this Rachrach person even wants to argue about any of this.
And as you stated, not all opioids are cross tolerant either.

What you're saying here is in essence, true.

Opioids for the use of analgesia, be it mental or physical, are generally pretty linear in their effects. A more potent Opioid will satisfy, increasing tolerance and so on.

I believe, an correct me if I'm wrong, the topic we wish to discuss is more of the esoteric, inexplicable aspects of tolerance to Opioids and indeed all drugs for that matter.

I've been a 20 bag a day Heroin user and I've been a 4+ gram, relatively pure Heroin habit (I lived in Asia for a bit and it was extremely cheap). A 750ml bottle of hard liquor in Duhok, Kurdistan sold for 12,000 dinar and the going rate for a point of Heroin was as low as 100 dinar. When I was in Iraq, it was ~1,200 republican dinars to an American dollar. Alcohol is seen as the "high class; elite; American/European" thing. They look at Alcohol, they see it in commercials and I shit you not, they talk about their pure Heroin as if it's toxic sludge and they all wonder what "champagne" really is like... it must make you dream sweet dreams. Here we are in our culture buying bottles of Vodka for 20 bucks, staying drunk all day, while your DOC would cost you 100-200 a day.

My point with all of this? There is an inexplicable difference in the way Opioids effect a person the higher their tolerance goes. It is not entirely linear. A 20 bag with no tolerance would open up all the doors of pleasure in the entire universe. 4 grams a day just makes you numb. You get angry at the fact, when you realize you're not able to feel anything anymore, emotions, pain, happy, sad... no, just numb. That feeling of just wanting o feel again... it was the moment I realized that infinite Heroin was not the key to everything I had always thought it was.

Confucius tells us to make every move in our lives with the "best right intention". We know we are playijng with fire by using these powerful substances, but we keep going deeper, when the true joy comes from using the drug in pure moderation, at the highest level of benefit to cost.

What we chase is a process of diminishing returns until you're in a hotel in Cambodia with nothing but a fan spinning, the humidity clinging to your sweaty body and everything in the room, having to do two separate shots at a time as your needles are getting clogged from the sheer amount of product. You inject, wait 3 seconds... you feel a small rush of warmth. This rush creates nostalgia. You remember for that split second the happiness; when it was good; when it made YOU FEEL GOOD. In the end, I'm just clinging to a desperate memory that the Opium might in fact be brainwashing me into remembering.

That is what I feel is the end of the line. You're either numb or sick. This is the state I see many of our Fentanyl addicts in, unconsciousness or sheer pain, and with Fentanyl, this all happens several times a day.

It's definitely linear to a point, but that point has diminishing returns that are undeniable

 

[pharaoh]

People I've known that are on it basically use it as a back up for their desire to be able to still use heroin but be able to manage withdrawals. Of course this isn't always the case. I never got a decent buzz off it and actually found it to be a horrible drug, even as an ORT. Bupe is the way to go and some people (with a tolerance) have reported pleasant effects as it has anti-anxiety qualities - can't remember the proper term. But also it is ridiculously potent and I've seen people become very sick from using 1 or 2 mgs without tolerance, thinking it was a low dose.

But yeah, heroin culture here basically led to methadone being a substitute for a heroin habit rather than an effective treatment. Possible harm reduction qualities due to preventing withdrawals but also major overdose risk.

As for recreational use, I've never known anyone to use it that way.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I use to use bupe "recreationally" when I was first introduced to it.

I've been using opioids for 16 years now, but before long term bupe, I obviously had weeks here or there where I didn't have anything & my tolerance dropped significantly.

During these times, .5mg-1mg of bupe had me high all day. It wasn't as good as heroin or even tramadol, but it was more enjoyable than just being sober or drinking.


If people can use bupe recreationally (if tolerance allows it), of course methadone could be too. One would assume methadone would be even more satisfying since it's a full agonist. But I've met people who actually prefer bupe over methadone. I've met people who preferred bupe over oxycodone even.


So there's a million variables when it comes to what makes something recreational for some one.

A heroin addict probably isn't going to find methadone recreational, but some one who's only ever taken some tylenol 3s is probably gonna enjoy methadone.

Personally for me, even with a tolerance, I still find taking a full agonist enjoyable, even if all it does is make me feel "normal" or "content".

 

[Rachrach]

What you're saying here is in essence, true.

Opioids for the use of analgesia, be it mental or physical, are generally pretty linear in their effects. A more potent Opioid will satisfy, increasing tolerance and so on.

I believe, an correct me if I'm wrong, the topic we wish to discuss is more of the esoteric, inexplicable aspects of tolerance to Opioids and indeed all drugs for that matter.

I've been a 20 bag a day Heroin user and I've been a 4+ gram, relatively pure Heroin habit (I lived in Asia for a bit and it was extremely cheap). A 750ml bottle of hard liquor in Duhok, Kurdistan sold for 12,000 dinar and the going rate for a point of Heroin was as low as 100 dinar. When I was in Iraq, it was ~1,200 republican dinars to an American dollar. Alcohol is seen as the "high class; elite; American/European" thing. They look at Alcohol, they see it in commercials and I shit you not, they talk about their pure Heroin as if it's toxic sludge and they all wonder what "champagne" really is like... it must make you dream sweet dreams. Here we are in our culture buying bottles of Vodka for 20 bucks, staying drunk all day, while your DOC would cost you 100-200 a day.

My point with all of this? There is an inexplicable difference in the way Opioids effect a person the higher their tolerance goes. It is not entirely linear. A 20 bag with no tolerance would open up all the doors of pleasure in the entire universe. 4 grams a day just makes you numb. You get angry at the fact, when you realize you're not able to feel anything anymore, emotions, pain, happy, sad... no, just numb. That feeling of just wanting o feel again... it was the moment I realized that infinite Heroin was not the key to everything I had always thought it was.

Confucius tells us to make every move in our lives with the "best right intention". We know we are playijng with fire by using these powerful substances, but we keep going deeper, when the true joy comes from using the drug in pure moderation, at the highest level of benefit to cost.

What we chase is a process of diminishing returns until you're in a hotel in Cambodia with nothing but a fan spinning, the humidity clinging to your sweaty body and everything in the room, having to do two separate shots at a time as your needles are getting clogged from the sheer amount of product. You inject, wait 3 seconds... you feel a small rush of warmth. This rush creates nostalgia. You remember for that split second the happiness; when it was good; when it made YOU FEEL GOOD. In the end, I'm just clinging to a desperate memory that the Opium might in fact be brainwashing me into remembering.

That is what I feel is the end of the line. You're either numb or sick. This is the state I see many of our Fentanyl addicts in, unconsciousness or sheer pain, and with Fentanyl, this all happens several times a day.

It's definitely linear to a point, but that point has diminishing returns that are undeniable

Hahaha. Just to say, most every hotel I have been in while in Cambodia merely had a fan. Only time humidity was even felt was in a guesthouse by Beong Keok (I know, I know, it was a long time ago, before Chinese filled in the lake & bulldozed the Cham ghetto & Backpacker Nirvana around it). The guesthouse had no chink between the boards so no matter how fast that fan went, you could never feel iit. It was always the same temp & humidity as the air outside.

That reminiscing away, you are absolutely right about the frustration of having nearly pure heroin and not feeling a thing. Researchers are right, with free heroin a junky still plateaus at between 2 & 3 grammes. Bukowski said that as well in talking about his time in Tangiers. Buying morphine for a pittance, OTC, he plateaud and his room became a rubbish dump. It was filled with half eaten take away containers. All he got out of bed for, was to do a dosage and then got back into bed.

I used to fantasise about how great it would be to have unlimited pure heroin. The reality though is that it basically sucked (though not as bad as not having it). It became boring to use.

 

[pharaoh]

I use to use bupe "recreationally" when I was first introduced to it.

I've been using opioids for 16 years now, but before long term bupe, I obviously had weeks here or there where I didn't have anything & my tolerance dropped significantly.

During these times, .5mg-1mg of bupe had me high all day. It wasn't as good as heroin or even tramadol, but it was more enjoyable than just being sober or drinking.


If people can use bupe recreationally (if tolerance allows it), of course methadone could be too. One would assume methadone would be even more satisfying since it's a full agonist. But I've met people who actually prefer bupe over methadone. I've met people who preferred bupe over oxycodone even.


So there's a million variables when it comes to what makes something recreational for some one.

A heroin addict probably isn't going to find methadone recreational, but some one who's only ever taken some tylenol 3s is probably gonna enjoy methadone.

Personally for me, even with a tolerance, I still find taking a full agonist enjoyable, even if all it does is make me feel "normal" or "content".

Its pretty dangerous for someone with no tolerance. Bupe is potentially lethal in small doses and I accidentally nearly killed my friend by letting him have a tiny bit off of a 2mg tablet - he and his girlfriend were sick for days. Methadone is different though because of the range of doses. I'm sure psychonaut wiki has the info but what would even be a starting dose for someone with low to no tolerance? And it isn't much of a high - just a kind of groggy slog, noddy type of drug without much euphoria. Bupe when snorted is almost speedy and is good for anxiety. It is big in prisons here or has been in the past anyway.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Can get you pretty high if you're naive to opiates. As an established heroin user it just lets you achieve 'normality'.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Its pretty dangerous for someone with no tolerance. Bupe is potentially lethal in small doses and I accidentally nearly killed my friend by letting him have a tiny bit off of a 2mg tablet - he and his girlfriend were sick for days. Methadone is different though because of the range of doses. I'm sure psychonaut wiki has the info but what would even be a starting dose for someone with low to no tolerance? And it isn't much of a high - just a kind of groggy slog, noddy type of drug without much euphoria. Bupe when snorted is almost speedy and is good for anxiety. It is big in prisons here or has been in the past anyway.

It's definitely possible for some one with no tolerance to OD on bupe, but it's rare.
They're more likely to just get sick & regret taking it.


I personally find all opioids stimulating & good for my anxiety in one way or another. Even heroin gets me up & moving around & feeling social.
Bupe as well, although I find every opioid has it's own flavor of "stimulation" and bupe doesn't make me feel as satisfied & content enough to get shit done. Maybe some days it does, but it's very infrequent & unpredictable.

I was recently with somebody over the holidays who had access to methadone but said they preferred buprenorphine. Which I thought was interesting, because you would think a full agonist would be more enjoyable than a shitty partial agonist. But then again there are people out there who enjoy kratom, which I can't understand at all, but who am I to tell them they're not really enjoying it anyway.

 

[Rachrach]

Its pretty dangerous for someone with no tolerance. Bupe is potentially lethal in small doses and I accidentally nearly killed my friend by letting him have a tiny bit off of a 2mg tablet - he and his girlfriend were sick for days. Methadone is different though because of the range of doses. I'm sure psychonaut wiki has the info but what would even be a starting dose for someone with low to no tolerance? And it isn't much of a high - just a kind of groggy slog, noddy type of drug without much euphoria. Bupe when snorted is almost speedy and is good for anxiety. It is big in prisons here or has been in the past anyway.

Guidelines say 20 to 40mg WITH Tolerance. For people without it is dependent upon weight, but most physicians (etc.) simply go very low at 2.5mg. I should say used to "go low" because it has fallen into disfavour for obvious reasons (outside of Addiction Treatment).

Methadone is hands down the worst opioid for analgesia, because of the serious risk of overdose. It has a freakishly long half life and its analgesic potential vis a vis duration falls far short of morphine (and its metabolites). So, an opioid naive consumer receives methadone for pain relief. Works quite well but when its potency fades the half life is only getting its legs...so more methadone is ingested, so on & so forth. It amazes me how long it took for medical providers to catch on about the plethora of overdosing amongst Chronic Pain patienta.

You are right that Bupernorphine is widely consumed in prisons in the US, UK & Israel. Probably in other nations as well but I do not know that.

 

[Rachrach]

I need to add, Bupe is very difficult to overdose on though not impossible. Its mixed nature (Agonist/Antagonist) avoids many of the normal opioid pitfalls, for example, depressed breathing.

 

[pharaoh]

@Rachrach an old friend from my junkie days told me that they went abroad and managed to smuggle a load of meth in via a 7-up or Sprite bottle (7-up I'm guessing as she is Irish and in Ireland flat 7-up was a remedy for any malady, but it HAS to be flat). Would that be possible? Could've been quite a while back, possible even before the airports got all fucked due to 9/11 which is before my time but she had her kid with her as an infant and he must be in his early 20s by now. Anyway could that have been done? Probably not now eh? I had to get a letter from the Home Office just to take 3 or so days of 8mg bube tablets with me although I also took them another time when flying somewhere else without bothering and they didn't even see them.

Always wondered if this was possible for... reasons.... But I doubt it now anyway due to the tech. They probably have shit that can detect inconsistencies in the liquid, not to mention any dogs that might be sniffing about if you're collared. She said this was early on in her addiction so she looked "normal". I've mostly managed to get away with being "normal looking" ('yo he's a fed!' type stuff happening often) and have dressed down on purpose to score. Not saying I'd bother now and I don't need to but I'd love to know if it could be possible.