• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ
  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

DMT and Religion, The inaccuracies in reported effects due to religious thought.

then why don't we see

eye-to-eye

[Aha! I see you've led me in a Mayan deer-dance here, my friend - nicely done - and a valuable contribution to contemporary DMT-inspired weaving's of cosmic time - the deer is humbled, bloodied, and ready to die... thankful for release... bored of material bonds...].
 
Last edited:
^ Dunno, some kind of blockage in the cosmovision pipes maybe? Give it another flush, I'm sure it'll go down this time.
 
Ritualized sacrifice is the most noble end imaginable for me...
the eternal joy of spiritual release - between worlds - words go
in the flow
of meaningless embodiments
where form and idea mean nothing
and everything
to lose nothing is to gain everything


(not encouraging suicide - only ritual sacrifice... and blood letting...)
 
I truly have no idea what you're talking about Ismene

Which bit are you struggling with sockpuppet?

Not sure if you've never dosed high enough to leave your body, become aphasic, have sensory reality replaced, have the concepts of language such as "stranger" and "me" vanish, etc, but that's what a high dose does for me and most people I have known all my life.

I dunno, I've dosed pretty high. 20 dried grams of cubensis and 300mg of moclobemide, 500mics of acid and 3 blotters of DOM. Oral DMT at doses sufficient to stun a rampaging elephant ;)

and for all "breakthrough" doses of DMT by definition.

I usually take DMT orally rather than smoke it. I did overdose on rectal DMT once - while it was very extreme and the DMT visuals were overlaid over reality I was always perfectly aware that I was tripping. I've certainly never known I wasn't on a drug and I've taken doses that would leave most trippers on their knees.
 
Ismene, maybe you won't take me seriously... but do smoke-yourself a massive dose of DMT and get fully-dissolved into the universe. Only smoking does it; and I've never been in a similar state on anything else at all - nor could I imagine getting there on anything else - and it's never failed for me; or lots of people I've given it to... and I'm not a kid... except in disguise... take that as you will...

and I'm off...
and cosmovision is definitely not a hoax.
 
Last edited:
^Been there, done that (willing to bet Ismene has as well). What's your point? High dose DMT, done in any ROA, has never made me lose my grip on reality for longer than the experience. Even while high DMT leaves me very clear headed, I always know I'm on a drug.

Ever done ayahuasca or pharmahuasca? You're into the whole "giving psychedelics religious significance" scene, so I bet high dose oral DMT would be right up your alley.

x-sun-x-moon-x (this is more referring to your earlier posts in the thread)

I kinda dig what you've been doing around here, but you're being deliberately enigmatic and you seem to be intentionally pissing people off (not that I don't think that's funny). If you want people to actually pay attention to your posts you should probably participate more directly and less enigmatically, or everyone will just glaze over your posts as "another nonsensical one by that guy."

Maybe if you were a famous author people would wade through your posts to find some meaning, but you aren't, and I don't think the way you're going about it will make anyone agree with you, or even read your posts. I know I was reading all your posts initially, and now I'm just glazing over them.

Eh, just a friendly suggestion though, you do you man. I like your posts and I do think you're contributing something, even though I'm not always sure what it is (which is the point in a way right?). But I also think people are going to miss what you have to say if you don't tone down the weirdness a bit.

Which bit are you struggling with sockpuppet?

Not sure if you've never dosed high enough to leave your body, become aphasic, have sensory reality replaced, have the concepts of language such as "stranger" and "me" vanish, etc, but that's what a high dose does for me and most people I have known all my life.

I dunno, I've dosed pretty high. 20 dried grams of cubensis and 300mg of moclobemide, 500mics of acid and 3 blotters of DOM. Oral DMT at doses sufficient to stun a rampaging elephant ;)

and for all "breakthrough" doses of DMT by definition.

I usually take DMT orally rather than smoke it. I did overdose on rectal DMT once - while it was very extreme and the DMT visuals were overlaid over reality I was always perfectly aware that I was tripping. I've certainly never known I wasn't on a drug and I've taken doses that would leave most trippers on their knees.

I agree with Ismene, I've had many very high dose experiences. I've had language break down to the point where I can't talk, I've "left my body" as ya'll say, I've had my mind eliminated and watched it rebuild. I've seen my life flash before my eyes in forwards and reverse and been left to piece it back together. And I've completely lost sight of who and where I am for periods of days.

And I've always been able to differentiate between sober, objective reality and tripping. I've always known I was high. And my world view, which is essentially nihilism combined with a love of science, has stayed in tact even while tripping, because the same philosophical arguments I use sober work while high.

Actually, all the experienced trippers I know remain fairly lucid and intelligent while tripping, whereas most people new to tripping come up with all kinds of random crazy shit that doesn't make sense, but that's just my experience. I and my trip buddies view psychedelics as tools for looking inwards, not as literally different physical plains or as a realistic way to examine existence in general.

Reality is filtered through our perceptions, but that isn't to say objective reality is non existant. There are plenty of antiquated arguments about form and whether our brains define the world around us, but with modern knowledge of astronomy and physics we know that the cosmos are larger than the human mind. When we die everything else will continue to exist, and the form in which it exists will be objective and have nothing to do with the psychedelic mind state.

People can look at psychedelics as sacraments all they want, but they are drugs that work by fucking with neuro chemistry (not saying the two views are necessarily contradictory either). Without a brain to alter, psychedelics do nothing. And that is where the distinction between tripping and actual, objective reality should become apparent.

I think it's understandable to, while high, inhabit a radically different mindset and world, and I think it's even excusable to believe some crazy shit while tripping. But to continue to believe in these alternate realities once sober is clearly ridiculous. I think psychedelics show us our minds, expose us to the potentials of our brains. I see no reason to believe they hold sway on the cosmos at large.

Humans have always wanted to explain existence in terms of humans. We are always looking to make the universe about us, to have our personal dreams or religious experiences dictate the actual world. Since ancient times this has been true, but I would like to think we are advancing as a species. We should look at psychedelics as useful drugs, to try and turn them into some kind of universal religious experience is silly and I feel it reduces the importance of reality and the cosmos.

Existence is bigger than humans and bigger than any altered mind state humans can induce- we just aren't that relevant, cosmically speaking.
 
Last edited:
^^^Wonderful post, I can relate to a lot of that.

I would love someone to just explain what they have learned about reality while hallucinating. Nobody has ever been able to do that for me. Just explain how being under the influence of drugs has increased your understanding of what reality actually is.

They are distortions, hallucinations, and delusions. Which are all drug effects of psychedelics.

It is basically an error in your brain. A hallucination by definition is a perception in the absence of stimuli. There was never anything there to cause the experience. Your brain created it because it's chemistry was altered and it was never even real. Why in hell would that be more accurate than what my sober mind is telling me right now?

Schizophrenia and psychedelic use share some of the same characteristics. Schizophrenia is a break in someone's reality, really sad and unfortunate I might add, and what their mind is telling them is not real and in no way can be applied to the true reality of what a healthy person is experiencing.

Example, Schizophrenics would do something like say step in front traffic trying to stop a car with their hand. I can tell you right now that car isn’t stopping because of their hand. The person driving hopefully puts the breaks on in time, and if he does, the schizophrenic will believe no matter what anyone says that the power of their mind stopped the car.
 
its nice to hear some sense being talked in this thread at last. i think that a religious person tripping on something like DMT would be much more likely to see religious things in their psychedelic journey in much the same way as religious people who have near death experiences report seeing the virgin mary or mohammed or whatever characters are in their particular mythology.
 
SpinOutOfControl;10648367Schizophrenia and psychedelic use share some of the same characteristics.[/QUOTE said:
They don't share the fundamental defining characteristic tho - that you're aware you've taken a drug.

its nice to hear some sense being talked in this thread at last. i think that a religious person tripping on something like DMT would be much more likely to see religious things in their psychedelic journey in much the same way as religious people who have near death experiences report seeing the virgin mary or mohammed or whatever characters are in their particular mythology.

I'm not sure if they'd be able to shape a psychedelic experience that well tho - no matter how much you believed in Jesus I think a powerful dose of psychedelics will displace most of that thought process - althought maybe you could see Jesus in your psychedelic imagery if you were fervent enough and you were vastly experienced with psychedelics.

I think DMT imagery is a little bit more powerful because it's what you've read Terence Mckenna saying and when you're out of your depth and wondering what to think after taking DMT your mind instinctively reaches for Terence and his trusty alien elves.

When you actually sit back and contemplate for a while - and this is on oral DMT rather than smoked - you get more of a sense that the alien thing is just bullshit for your mind to hide behind.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would love someone to just explain what they have learned about reality while hallucinating. Nobody has ever been able to do that for me. Just explain how being under the influence of drugs has increased your understanding of what reality actually is.

They are distortions, hallucinations, and delusions. Which are all drug effects of psychedelics.

It is basically an error in your brain. A hallucination by definition is a perception in the absence of stimuli. There was never anything there to cause the experience. Your brain created it because it's chemistry was altered and it was never even real. Why in hell would that be more accurate than what my sober mind is telling me right now?

Schizophrenia and psychedelic use share some of the same characteristics. Schizophrenia is a break in someone's reality, really sad and unfortunate I might add, and what their mind is telling them is not real and in no way can be applied to the true reality of what a healthy person is experiencing.

Example, Schizophrenics would do something like say step in front traffic trying to stop a car with their hand. I can tell you right now that car isn’t stopping because of their hand. The person driving hopefully puts the breaks on in time, and if he does, the schizophrenic will believe no matter what anyone says that the power of their mind stopped the car.

have you never taken psychedelic drugs?
to me, your analysis seems way off, and much more in line with the early theory that psychedelics were 'pyschotomimetic', or mimicking psychosis.
high doses of certain psychedelics may well fracture an individual's perception of reality to the extent that it has similarities to a psychotic response, but it is absolutely false to say that all psychedelic drug use is able to compared so simplistically to psychosis or delusion.
psychedelics are used by a lot of people for a lot of different reasons, nowadays. the power and incomprehensibility of a smoked DMT breakthrough, has certainly made me question my own beliefs and understandings of the world - but certainly not imprinted a new belief system upon me or led me down the path of delusion.
not delusion, just discovery.

i don't know what the experience of a dmt breakthrough means, and i don't pretend to - but this idea that hallucinations are only in the realm of mental disturbance sounds like the sort of drug war propaganda we've been fed for 50 years. i don't buy it any more than i buy any other assertion that is lacking in proof.
a great deal of fascinating research has been conducted on psychedelics, and it is an absolute tragedy that such great restrictions have been placed on researchers for the last 40+ years.

it may help dispel some of the more ridiculous myths around psychedelics if we were actually allowed to explore their impact on human consciousness in a mature way, rather than all of the scare-mongering we are so used to. psychedelics haven't been considered psychotomimetics for half a century.

if you've never experienced the clarity of introspective thought - of big picture understanding and acceptance of death - that can occur under the influence of psychedelic drugs, then it is not something i can easily explain to you.
nor do i have any particular urge to want to convince you.
if you think psychedelic drugs are just a gateway to madness and illusion, who am i to challenge your beliefs?
your loss, not mine.
 
Yes I have used lots of psychedelics.

No they don't mimic psychosis or any mental disorder for that matter, nor did I say that.

You don't think someone tripping on drugs is having delusions? or hallucinations?

One time on a ton of LSD among other and things I thought I was Jesus Christ... Guess what, I'M NOT!
 
Last edited:
+
You don't think someone tripping on drugs is having delusions? or hallucinations?

One time on a ton of LSD among other and things I thought I was Jesus Christ... Guess what, I'M NOT!

But perhaps you ARE! ;)

I dunno about delusions or hallucinations - I tend to see the world like a painting. I don't know whether that's a delusion or just a different way of seeing nature.
 
i've never had delusions on LSD.
perhaps it's your response to the drug, as opposed to a typical response to the drug.

i find drugs such as LSD open me up to a lot of insights into my existence, free of the everyday baggage of normal thought patterns, free of the filters and conditioning that i have adapted to exist in the society i live in.
i wouldn't say they're all good ideas - there may be moments of confusion, of paranoia - but i wouldn't call psychedelic thoughts delusions.

i feel this thread has gone way off topic, but i wanted to chime in to respond to that post.
obviously this is all very subjective, but i think it is very misguided and over-simplified to equate "tripping" with "delusions".
 
Here is a question. Does anyone here believe what their tripping mind is telling them over their sober mind? Does it make sense to do that? To hold your thoughts and experiences in an altered state of mind more to a higher level of importance, applicability, and truth than your everyday experience. Or is your everyday experience on drugs? Then it would at least make more sense.

Personally nothing from any of my trips have ever meant anything beyond WOAH! that was interesting... In the beginning of my psychedelic experience I tried to take it seriously it just made me look kinda crazy. It is inexperience in my mind that causes someone to get sucked into what they saw.

Space junk have you ever had an epiphany or realization during a trip? It happens a lot on LSD with me. Have you ever reconsidered that realization after a trip? I bet it didn't make any sense what so ever. It feels neat and makes perfect sense at the time though.

That is experiencing a delusion in my opinion, even if it is temporary. Tripping is full of these things going on in my head. Never do I take them seriously because I know I am on drugs. Someone with inexperience may not be able to tell he difference as easily and buy into it, then it is a full fledged delusion in every sense of the term.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
^ again - highly subjective.
yes, i certainly have experienced 'epiphany' moments on LSD that have still made total sense the following days.
not everything you experience and contemplate can be integrated into everyday existence, but that is not to say it is all pointless or meaningless.

perhaps you are projecting your preconceptions about the nature of psychedelic experience onto your trip?
if you think it is just going to be insanity, perhaps that is the path your trip takes?

i'm not saying everything i've experienced in psychedelic states has been useful - but i'm certainly not saying it has all been useless, either. far from it, in fact.

to say "someone with inexperience may not be able to tell he difference as easily and buy into it" comes across as really dismissive and condescending. i'm not buying into anything, and i'm not inexperienced with these states.

i don't buy into the notion that psychedelic states of consciousness are delusional, that's for damn sure.
 
to say "someone with inexperience may not be able to tell he difference as easily and buy into it" comes across as really dismissive and condescending. i'm not buying into anything, and i'm not inexperienced with these states.

I am sorry you took it so personally. It was not intended for anyone specifically just a statement about what i have noticed among people without much experience with psychedelics.

I have watched it happen to my friends when we were younger. One friend in particular was in pretty bad shape.

I am certain of this as well. I can't believe the rude and ignorant ridicule that this post is getting.

I've probably smoked DMT more times than I've taken all other psychedelic drugs combined, and DMT hasn't forced me to believe jack shit, and in no way has it undermined my skeptical and scientific view of the world. The only "truth" that DMT has ever shown me is the fact that human beings are actually capable of experiencing such extreme altered states. Otherwise, I'm still a hardcore materialist, and believe that anything you see on DMT is the result of a chemical interacting with your brain.

Doesn't change the fact that DMT is probably the most fascinating and exciting thing I've ever done, and that DMT always ends up inspiring lots of cool and wacky philosophical or spiritual ideas. I just take them all with a grain of salt.

This really sums it up for me and parallels with my beliefs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
What's your point? High dose DMT, done in any ROA, has never made me lose my grip on reality for longer than the experience.
Sorry, I thought he was saying that even during the experience he knew he was 'on a drug'. I had in mind a sensory overload - aimed at what, in particular, I'm not sure now... but to each there own. I'm not sure why I was so insistent.

Ever done ayahuasca or pharmahuasca? You're into the whole "giving psychedelics religious significance" scene, so I bet high dose oral DMT would be right up your alley.
No, I haven't - but I should. I'm not averse to sleep-deprivation through stimulant-use to act as an 'amplifier' before taking any psychedelic. To me, it is a very real 'spirituality' (not-implying 'spirits'... despite earlier claims...) - not as an arbitrary imposition of significance onto a drug experience, but a seen/known/experienced significance. Encountering repeatedly-observable phenomena and paradigms which are shared by other people over millenia can't be dismissed based upon the means of getting-there. The 'reality' (or hallucinated-reality) is observable in remarkable clarity, and interact-able in a repeatable fashion - although certainly the person is 'psychotic' to an outsider; it's only problematic as regards the time-scale of 'recovery'; if that makes sense. I don't know if this makes any sense at all to people who use drugs in a less irresponsible fashion.

But the rationalization as 'psychosis' - using philosophies from people who never knew, or imagined, the state of mind seems inadequate - and entirely dismissive of the content of the experience itself - whether 'psychosis' or 'trip' - it's still a change in brain chemistry nonetheless. To question an observed 'reality' by questioning its reality avoids confronting the fact that it is repeatedly observable, and observably real (or 'unreal', if preferred) regardless; and exists with common themes described-repeatedly throughout history... I'll stop there since attempted rationalizations of hallucinated realities may be construed as 'psychotic' by 'psychotomimetic' users, paradoxically, and using words to describe the 'visions' only leads to using names with religious overtones, and immediately confuses the intent of the person trying to express the non-religious 'vision' - viewed in a surrounding with 'spiritual' overtones all the same, if that makes sense!

From a socially-aware perspective, which I sometimes forget... I see that you're absolutely right in all of your comments ;) So thanks for pointing out my megalomania! I'll claim 'temporary-psychosis' if I may... and not bore anyone with bizarre 'interpretations'... Haha.
Stating 'beliefs' as 'known-fact' - as I may have done in the past - is also not very helpful in reaching any understanding of 'truth', but it may highlight the interchangeable-nature of arbitrary beliefs of any kind... except to a 'psychotic' person may actually forget that they don't believe in it anyway - which can lead to severe internal crises! In fact it's best not to come onto the internet at all.
I'll add that McKenna's book True Hallucinations is a very interesting read for those who like to read between the lines of rambling words. But this concept in itself may be a form of 'psychotic' reaction.

Love and light and DMT :) Unoit.
I was doing quite well until the end - but then I had a relapse!
 
Last edited:
As for much of the rest of this thread - anyone who wants to live in a world controlled by psychiatrists and the DSM wants to live in a different world than I do! LOL Mainstream society has failed miserably in most everything and is on its way down fast....

I feel you man, I really do.

The thing is - regarding people's inability to see things from this perspective - I think it's not so much a case of inadequate dosages, but more a case of them not being mentally receptive to it. Psychedelics grant an enormous amount of power to the mind, but if you use that power in sloppy ways you are not going to see the full potential. Practising yoga can help you to understand mindfulness, balance, and harmony in a holistic perspective, but if you practise yoga just to "get fit" then you aren't going to see those benefits. It's the same with the brain and the mind.

My very first psychedelic trip (on Salvia) left me with a sense of knowing that there were profound depths to reality that my cultural programming had not allowed me to perceive. But I can see how those who are ingrained deeply within the cultural groove - and who have never really thought to look what's outside the shoebox of perception they live in - just don't get it, because that is the mindset they take in to the experience. The psychedelics just reflect their limited world view, only in technicolour.
 
Last edited:
Top