DMT and Religion, The inaccuracies in reported effects due to religious thought.

[Haoma]

This thread is bound to piss some people off, I feel the topic must be raised though. Just by the very nature of the DMT experience I think it leaves open the window for people to interpret their experience as having their own views get mangled in with the information transferred to you from the entities.

In my experience the information being transferred to me occurs in the form of me having thoughts which didn't originate within me. This makes it very easy to put my own slant on what I am being told. I notice from seeing and talking about DMT experiences with others that while a lot of information truly does come from an outside source there always seems to be personal slants to peoples experiences.

I am very experienced with DMT and have broken through more times than I can remember, I just think it is imperative to stay somewhat grounded and not lose sight of reality(whatever reality is) because every experienced DMT user knows just how far out there your views can become when presented with the existence of hyperspace.

I was atheist my entire life till trying DMT and in just 5 minutes was shown just how little we know of reality. For a while I was guilty of following DMT like one would a religion and have seen countless others fall into this mindset. I guess the point of this post is to point out the correlation so people can assess their own views. Not belittling the DMT experience in the least bit, just trying to take an objective approach to avoid the follies seen in religion. (beliefs based on "faith" not fact)

 

[SirTophamHat]

Any religious religious connotation aside, DMT exists and perhaps originated with medicinal purpose. --not the molecule itself, the consumption of it

I am not a deist, yet somehow find a level of spiritual meaning in this particular molecule above others. Nothing like feeling óf the universe givin ya a big ol hug as you exit hyperspace. It's weird how fulfilling that feeling can be.

 

[MyExcuse]

Wut? Ya'll crazy, DMT is just a drug like crack and black tar Heroin.

What I hear:

I was sane my entire life till trying DMT and in just 5 minutes was shown just how fragile sanity is. I'm guilty of considering unscientific views seriously, like one would religion, and have seen countless others fall into this mindset. I guess the point of this post is to point out the correlation so people can assess their own views. Not belittling the DMT experience in the least bit, just trying to take an objective approach to avoid the follies seen in psychosis. (beliefs based on "delusions" not fact).

Just saying, let's just do drugs and get along. If you fall off the mental bandwagon along the way, that's on you.

 

[ParappaTheRapper]

I have never been able to make sense of any of my DMT experiences or come to any conclusions about them. Too many possibilities.

 

[sn23]

Awesome music, just listened to it yesterday

Besides that, I have nothing serious to contribute to this thread. DMT breakthroughs are certainly among the most bewildering experiences a human can have. No idea how to make any real sense of them, or if any such attempt is even a useful approach.

 

[lastest]

There are no elves. There is no immortal soul. There is no hyperspace. The Necromonicon only existed in Lovecraft's imagination. Your parents bought you those Christmas presents.

 

[Rorthron]

Not belittling the DMT experience in the least bit, just trying to take an objective approach to avoid the follies seen in religion. (beliefs based on "faith" not fact)

That is absurd. Beliefs are per their nature based on faith. Science is based on fact, and reproducible fact, for that matter. You believe what you want to believe. DMT or any other drug may or may not strengthen or shatter your beliefs. That's up to you to decide how relevant each experience is. Now, do not expect "facts" under any subjective experience, whether by a drug or by years of meditative seclusion in a monastery. If you want facts, become a scientist and stop taking drugs.

 

[Lazyscience]

just because you see all these amazing things on DMT is no reason to start believing any old nonsense. how can trust your brain to give you accurate information when youre incredibly fucked on hallucinogenic drugs?

ive never taken DMT before but i am certain that if i did i would still be able to separate reality from the dreamword of tripping on drugs. i think if you cannot, you have mental problems.

 

[Lazyscience]

great im totally up for the challenge i hope im wrong too because that would be more fun.

 

[TheAppleCore]

ive never taken DMT before but i am certain that if i did i would still be able to separate reality from the dreamword of tripping on drugs. i think if you cannot, you have mental problems.

I am certain of this as well. I can't believe the rude and ignorant ridicule that this post is getting.

I've probably smoked DMT more times than I've taken all other psychedelic drugs combined, and DMT hasn't forced me to believe jack shit, and in no way has it undermined my skeptical and scientific view of the world. The only "truth" that DMT has ever shown me is the fact that human beings are actually capable of experiencing such extreme altered states. Otherwise, I'm still a hardcore materialist, and believe that anything you see on DMT is the result of a chemical interacting with your brain.

Doesn't change the fact that DMT is probably the most fascinating and exciting thing I've ever done, and that DMT always ends up inspiring lots of cool and wacky philosophical or spiritual ideas. I just take them all with a grain of salt.

 

[Ismene]

I've never smoked DMT but I've taken oral DMT at doses sufficient to stun a charging rhino and I've always been perfectly aware of my surroundings, what reality was and that I was tripping on a drug.

It's never made me believe in elves or aliens - I simply believe that it is an incredibly psychedelic drug with profound effects on the human brain.

 

[Lazyscience]

i would actually be very wearing of trying DMT now because it seems that from what you people are saying it causes psychosis. from the many expeiences ive had with mushrooms and similar analogues, i come away from the experience amazed by all the pretty colours and patterns and the weird things i was thinking but i just see it as a kind of strange dream or a film i watched. it seems that DMT is different though i suppose.

 

[potito]

Man, get your facts straight! science was never based on theories. science is based exclusively on observed and measurable facts. Theories arise to explain the facts. Theories come and go and are, as you point out, beliefs. Yet, just because a theory is wrong (which they often are) it does not mean that science is wrong. For a given fact, a set of theories may exist to explain it. And that is science.

[Yet I have the feeling we are getting away from the topic of the thread, and this is not the place for "Science 101", so I'll restrain from further commenting this topic here]

As an aside, I believe this is utterly wrong. Many, if not most scientific breakthroughs, have come from intuition, mystical insights, dreams or even the use of drugs. Einstein, Tesla, Faraday, Mullis are just a few names that spring to mind.

 

[-=SS=-]

This thread is bound to piss some people off, I feel the topic must be raised though. Just by the very nature of the DMT experience I think it leaves open the window for people to interpret their experience as having their own views get mangled in with the information transferred to you from the entities.

Let me be the first to say I 100% agree with this. It is infact why I did NN-DMT about half a dozen times over a 2 year period and why I will never use it again. On all of my "trips" I experienced interaction with entities.. none were anything like "elves" or other forms people have mentioned however.. and there were 2 in particular that basically resulted in me never wanting to do DMT again. The first came out of nowhere; I was just watching colours/3D patterns in that "space" then this mass/mess of black pulsating lines intruded into the space and I instantly recoiled in fear. Straight away I told it to "fuck off" and it receeded out of my space. The second happened at the end of a trip. Again I was just watching all this shit unfold infront of me and then this beautiful woman appeared, smiled, then reached out and touched my face. Her hand kinda ghosted through where I felt my face should be and into my "head", then I came out of the trance within seconds. What shocked me was that I met a guy who experienced exactly the same (the woman/hand thing).. he too came to the same conclusion that it seemed a bit suspicious.

Upon reflection I decided that being in the DMT state makes you potentially vunerable to other life/entities. Every time I did DMT I always felt an uneasy eerie feeling, like I had just stumbled into a forbidden haunted castle or something. Now whilst I saw some fucking amazing things on DMT like colours and patterns that no computer could ever reproduce and experienced moments of pure ecstacy (I had tears after the first experience), I will not be going back there through smoking. Even the shamans that everyone bangs on about are not immune from entities and malicious intent in that space. It is like being in the ocean.. you can swim, but you better watch the fuck out because there's shit in that environment that will eat or kill you.. you are out of your own domain.

Perhaps the best example of where entities have given information and the person has gotten mangled up in it is Terence McKenna.

 

[SONN]

How does one explain experiencing objective lifetimes in a split second?

are the 'mind' and the 'brain' one singular concept and idea that are both just the result of electrochemical signals by neurotransmitters?

 

[MushroomEnlightend]

If there is one thing to be learned from psychedelics in general it is probably the realization of the subjective experience. To the example made earlier (about Britain declaring war on Germany) I only take this as "fact" because I have been presented proper evidence for it to make sense. I didn't believe this out of blind faith because someone told me it, I did my own investigation as we must do with everything in life. Skepticism can be good. Even the Buddha said not to believe his word out of blind faith but to question it and see if it fits in with your own subjective experience and then integrate it into your life. Because of the subjectivity of the every day experience all of our realities are slightly different all with different truths and experiences. What psychedelics will then tell you is that we must rise above this subjectivity, this ego, and become enlightened with the fact that we are all one, everything is one. This is supported not only by my own psychedelic experiences but also through my dabbling in buddhism and quantum physics. I'm not telling anyone this is fact but simply that I have found it to be true. If any of that makes sense...

 

[Ismene]

Re Ismene's points: If one can distinguish "reality" from "hyperspace" while dosed one has clearly not "broken through".

I disagree sockpuppet - I think the whole point of psychedelics is that you are perfectly aware you are tripping. If you weren't aware of this fact and thought it was real then I'd call that psychosis. I've got no interest in psychosis which is why I stick to psychedelics rather than deleriants.

But also - Large doses of LSD or psilocybin or mescaline should also produce total immersion and inability to know one's name much less distinguish from reality - so it certainly sounds like you are some sort of hardhead or have otherwise been prevented from tripping deeply in general.

Nah, I've taken staggering doses of LSD and mushrooms and been perfectly aware that I'd taken a drug - I think the vast majority of people who take psychedelics agree. Perhaps you're inexperienced and took too much your first time or something? When you've got a little more experience you'll be able to take larger doses and be fine. That was the whole point of LSD research - people understood that they were on a drug - if that wasn't a feature of LSD then it would have been terrifying and useless for research.

Upon reflection I decided that being in the DMT state makes you potentially vunerable to other life/entities.

Are you sure these "entities" arn't just a product of your own imagination tho? Like all those rednecks in southern towns who claim aliens abducted them and used anal probes?

 

[spacejunk]

^ i don't think "psychosis" is the right word. maybe "delirium" is a more appropriate term?

i would really like to participate in this thread beyond that, but i fear it's been tainted by a clash of egos.
a shame, because it is a subject i am very interested in at the moment, but it so easily turns into a drag...unless approached in an easy-going, reflective way. ah well.

 

[Ismene]

^^

So you really can't tell reality from tripping? If a stranger knocked on your door while you were on mushrooms and said "I am the mushroom fairy here to take all your money and furniture and then bumrape you" you would just say "Ok Mushroom fairy"?

 

[spacejunk]

^ agreed.
there are certain drugs that do make it hard to differentiate 'hallucinations' from 'reality' and blur the sense of self to the extent that you have no understanding of intoxication or whatever; but those (to me) are more things like datura. deliriants; not the classic psychedelics.

i am pretty sure sockpuppet is referring to something akin to 'ego death' - whatever we take those words to mean - or at least a fragmentation of our everyday reality to such an extent that normal abstractions (money is a good example) becomes meaningless or absurd.
this is very different to being able to "tell reality from tripping" (or not).
i don't think anyone could ever be under the illusion that they are or are not tripping because it is such a profound state of consciousness - but this does not mean that the insights gained in that realm are some drug-induced delusion.