Benzos Diazepam replacement ideas

[clear_sky]

I've been prescribed diazepam for a few years for anxiety.
Haven't taken it for over a year for a number of reasons (mainly wanting to see if I can beat the anxiety with a healthy lifestyle and a change of people around me).
I succeeded for the most part.
However, lately things have been getting on top of me and I needed to take something again.
Filled my script and discovered that good old diazepam isn't doing much in terms of anxiety reduction.
So I'm planning on going to my Dr this week and asking for a replacement.
I don't want xanax, because it zonks me out too much, I don't know what's happening when I'm on it.
Plus I become addicted to it really quick, overdo the dose and then it's just a downward spiral.
So - what benzo will give me a nice, relaxed, non-anxious feeling?
My Dr will give me pretty much whatever I ask for, so I thought I'd get some ideas here..

 

[ErgicMergic]

Clonazepam is your best bet if you find that Valium is too weak. It is not as sedating, or as muscle relaxing, but is more anxiolytic at an equivalent dosage. Personally, I would try to get a higher dosage of Diazepam, or supplement it with L-Theanine 200mg capsules, as Clonazepam is the most addicting commonly prescribed benzo out there (stronger anxiety relief means stronger rebound anxiety).

Xanax zonks you out since it is a high potency, short acting benzo. Clonazepam is similarly high potency, but is a long-lasting benzo.

 

[tricomb]

Klonopin is definitely not more addictive than xanax.
The shorter the half life, the more addictive.

 

[ErgicMergic]

^True, I meant to write physically addicting (dependence), not mentally addicting. Considering 1mg Klonopin = 1mg Xanax, taking 1mg Klonopin twice a day will get you dependent faster than 1mg Xanax twice a day, as the clonaz never really leaves the Benzo receptor site this way. Tolerance and dependence develop much faster with long-acting benzos like Valium or Klonopin, versus shorter acting ones like Xanax or Ativan.

This is just how Methadone or Bupe gets you dependent faster than an equivalent dose or a shorter acting opioid.

You're right, though. Shorter-acting = you get from sober to high much faster, and the feeling of "high" to most people is the quick onset, feeling 0mph high to 100mph high in 20 minutes, versus an hour. Shorter-acting also means it wears off quickly, leading to compulsive redosing.

 

[Cyanoide]

Actually you get addicted faster to short-acting benzos like alprazolam. Also, quitting is harder as the withdrawal symptoms are worse with short-acting benzos. When I used alprazolam daily, WD symptoms started to appear only a few hours after a missed dose. With clonazepam which I now use, I sometimes forget to take my dose (I take it twice a day) and get no symptoms at all. Also, with alprazolam you have to take it 4 times a day, when clonazepam only has to be taken twice a day.

I found diazepam to be quite poor for anxiety and would also vote for clonazepam. Clonazepam also has strong anti-convulsive properties and has moderately strong muscle relaxing properties, hence it is more relaxing physically than diazepam. Also IME it's the only benzo along with alprazolam that is very effective for panic attacks.

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

Klonopin is definitely not more addictive than xanax.
The shorter the half life, the more addictive.

Well said.

I started out with alprazolam (Xanax), moved to lorazepam (Ativan) and now I'm using clonazepam (Klonopin) - all prescribed. My doctor wants me to find out what works best for me. Alprazolam and lorazepam are certainly more addictive than clonazepam (and they're both shorter acting).

 

[Opanaking]

Klonopin is definitely not more addictive than xanax.
The shorter the half life, the more addictive.

That's not true per say. They are both the same potency and if your addicted to either of them your going to have problems eventually. But yes the short half life from xanax is going to make you have to take it even more. However I never found klonopin to last that long unless higher doses were taken. The duration of effects is way shorter then it's half life. I needed it at least three times a day and would say the effects lasted about 8 hours at the most before I needed to redose. Xanax actually works better in the sense that it kicks in faster and provides relief. With klonopin it takes an hour to come on and then about another hour to hit peak plasma concentrations. They're effects are really similar. Klonopin is almost like a maintance benzodiazapine. The main downfall with it is it's not going to provide relief if your having a panic attack you'll have to wait.

If you can keep your tolerance down with klonopin then it's a good benzo, but I found that over time tolerance grew faster with klonpin. The period in which it produced anxiety relieving effects almost went down as short as xanax.

This has been my experience and I took both for awhile. But like I said if you keep your tolerance low it should work. The truth is they all stop working at some point, there only meant to be taken for a couple of months. Once you start taking them for over a year is when you might run into problems. The only thing you can do really is keep your tolerance low.

If your on valium already maybe you should give librium a try. It also has a long half life. But what your describing to me is called a paradoxical effect. Eventually if you take benzos long enough they'll all give you that.

My advice would be go on librium maybe 25mg's twice a day and start learning to deal with your anxiety. The pills are only part of the help, you need to put in some work to. Klonopin might work good for you if you stay at low doses like 2mg's a day. But eventually it might speed you up to. I guess the only thing you can really do is try and find out. Just remember to keep your doses low in case you have to come off of it one day.

 

[tricomb]

Dumbest thing you've ever heard eh? I sincerely doubt that.

Klonopin does absolutely zero. The dumbest thing I've ever heard is saying xanax = klonopin in potency, but this is subjective.

I don't know what point you're making about how you still need to redose on klonopin despite it's longer half life.
Maybe you took my comment to mean people who take xanax dose more often than people who take klonopin? That's not what I was saying.

 

[Jabberwocky]

So I guess no one likes good old lorazepam these days?

That was my ideal benzo before I learned how to manage my anxiety w/o medication. Relatively long half life, and it didn't make me black out like xanax or fuck me up like k-pins.

 

[Opanaking]

Tricomb,

Xanax and klonopin are the same potency. There only difference is the half life and different effects. Xanax is going to come out of your body faster. What I was saying when you said xanax is more addictive then klonopin was that there both really addictive so that bugged me. So the main difference being your going to have to dose alprazolam and inbetween doses your going to start pheening like crazy. Well I found that after you take klonopin for long enough you start to need it more and you cant rely on the half life as much as in the beginning. And it becomes less effective then xanax would be at the same dose.

My point I was making is that they are both very addictive. I tried both of them for my anxiety over the years and that's where my information comes from.

The withdrawal from both of them is terrible and I found klonopin and xanax to be very simliar with different half lifes. To say one is more addictive then the other is just non sense. Unless your speaking strictly from a half life point of view then your right.

 

[phatass]

i personnally find oxazepam works pretty well... it doesn't have the muscle relaxing properties of diazepam... but since thats not what you're after it should be fine... that or maybe prazepam.... clonazepam works for a lot of people... i found it to be inneffective though.... i guess it really depends on the person

 

[Jabberwocky]

My point I was making is that they are both very addictive.

The truth, as all benzos tend to be. And let's not separate their propensity to cause dependency from their addictive nature...

Of course, everyone is different. Some people will find Xanax more addictive while others Klonopin. Some, if very (very) few in number, won't find either all that addictive. From my own experience, with myself as well as literature and observation on BL and in person, I seem to think that, as a general rule, most people become dependent on Xanax more quickly (i.e. after taking it for a shorter amount of time) than most who take Klonopin. Like Tricomb, I credit this to Xanax's short half life. But, then again, this is only my experience and what makes sense to me (and apparently it also makes sense to many others, although this in itself it certainly not the best way to turn a valid observation into a universal truism).

Really, it all comes down to this one all important point when having such a discussion: All benzos have a universal propensity to become addictive. If taken frequently enough, they will cause dependency.

 

[Cyanoide]

Dumbest thing you've ever heard eh? I sincerely doubt that.

Klonopin does absolutely zero. The dumbest thing I've ever heard is saying xanax = klonopin in potency, but this is subjective.

They are equally potent, but as they differ somewhat in effects it's possible some experience alprazolam as stronger. IME it has a faster onset and "hits" you more while clonazepam rises slowly and feels more subtle.

But I don't think you even believe it yourself when you say "Klonopin does absolutely zero". It's just different than alprazolam.

Tricomb,

Xanax and klonopin are the same potency. There only difference is the half life and different effects. Xanax is going to come out of your body faster. What I was saying when you said xanax is more addictive then klonopin was that there both really addictive so that bugged me. So the main difference being your going to have to dose alprazolam and inbetween doses your going to start pheening like crazy. Well I found that after you take klonopin for long enough you start to need it more and you cant rely on the half life as much as in the beginning. And it becomes less effective then xanax would be at the same dose.

My point I was making is that they are both very addictive. I tried both of them for my anxiety over the years and that's where my information comes from.

The withdrawal from both of them is terrible and I found klonopin and xanax to be very simliar with different half lifes. To say one is more addictive then the other is just non sense. Unless your speaking strictly from a half life point of view then your right.

I use clonazepam daily (3 mg) but no other benzo has built up such a tolerance for some reason. If I start getting panicky on stimulants I have to take 15-20 mg clonazepam (and since my pills are 0,5 mg that means 30-40 pills, it's insane) to calm me down. While alprazolam is equally potent, I have to take much less to prevent a panic attack. Maybe 5-10 mg.

While I'm just as addicted to clonazepam as alprazolam a few years ago I felt more addicted on alprazolam, due to two factors: you have to take it more often, and withdrawal kicks in fast. With clonazepam I could probably manage a whole day without feeling any bad WD.

WD from all benzos is horrible. I tried to quit alprazolam but the result was just that I switched to diazepam. When I tried to quit diazepam, I just switched to clonazepam. Oh, and I used oxazepam as my first benzo but switched to alprazolam because oxazepam is very poor for strong anxiety and panic disorder. Now I don't anymore feel like I even want to quit. I can live with being addicted, trying to quit is a very long and painful process. The worst part for me in WD are not the physical symptoms, but the rebound effect so I get all the anxiety, panic attacks, depression etc. back. Now I've mostly overcome them all. Also it would be impossible for me to be at work and live a normal life while on WD, I would have to take a many months break from everything. Even tapering extremely slowly and following the Ashton manual for tapering is too much.

 

[clear_sky]

Thanks, everybody!

I've never heard of any of the brand names for stuff like bromazepam and prazepam.
Lorazepam doesn't seem to be commonly prescribed here (Aus) either.
I used to get oxazepam for insomnia but got mad hangovers from it, I much prefer temazepam for sleep.
So I might see if I can get some clonazepam (aka Rivatril).

L-Theanine sounds like an interesting idea as well.

There seems to be some confusion in this thread regarding the muscle-relaxing properties of diazepam vs clonazepam..
Some say less, some say more?
I guess if it's similar to alprazolam, it would be more muscle-relaxing compared with diazepam.
That's the effect alprazolam has on me, anyways.

 

[Cyanoide]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread regarding the muscle-relaxing properties of diazepam vs clonazepam..
Some say less, some say more?
I guess if it's similar to alprazolam, it would be more muscle-relaxing compared with diazepam.
That's the effect alprazolam has on me, anyways.

The general consensus I've encountered among doctors and psychiatrists is that clonazepam has the strongest muscle-relaxant properties, which IME is true. Clonazepam (Rivatril here too) is a more multifunctional drug than diazepam, as it has strong anticonvulsive properties. It's e.g. prescribed for epileptics because it can prevent seizures.

But I found diazepam to be one of the poorer benzos anyway, it's good for e.g. generalized anxiety disorder but not especially effective for very strong anxiety and panic disorder.

 

[PokePoke]

I have to agree with the above posts. After speaking with doctors and a number of patients, Clonazepam seems to be the best route for tapering off / quitting Alprazolam or Diazepam. There are a variety of reasons for this. One: the longer half-life and two: it is not as potent. This seems to be the best route to go. The idea is to get you off of the fast acting, high-potency benzos, then to get you on the long acting, lower potency benzos. It's the step down routine so to speak. From what I've experienced and read, this seems to be the 'solution' and seems to be quite effective. After speaking with your doctor / psych., this is what he'll likely suggest. The next step after Clonazepam would be a lesser benzo; and perhaps, something to control blood pressure if I'm not mistaken. Good luck to you. I know getting off the benzos is one of, if not the hardest meds to quit.

Please share your results once you've spoken with a doctor. I'm sure we're all curious.

 

[PokePoke]

Also, lorazepam is quite effective; and infact, may be an alternative to the Clonazepam. I know it's been used to help alcoholics curve they're addictive / dependence. But in regards to tapering off of xanax, this is also another route you may want to consider. Let me know what you decide to do and please post your results every few days based on your symptoms (atttiude, physical well-being, energy, etc.).

 

[Cyanoide]

I have to agree with the above posts. After speaking with doctors and a number of patients, Clonazepam seems to be the best route for tapering off / quitting Alprazolam or Diazepam. There are a variety of reasons for this. One: the longer half-life and two: it is not as potent. This seems to be the best route to go. The idea is to get you off of the fast acting, high-potency benzos, then to get you on the long acting, lower potency benzos. It's the step down routine so to speak. From what I've experienced and read, this seems to be the 'solution' and seems to be quite effective. After speaking with your doctor / psych., this is what he'll likely suggest. The next step after Clonazepam would be a lesser benzo; and perhaps, something to control blood pressure if I'm not mistaken. Good luck to you. I know getting off the benzos is one of, if not the hardest meds to quit.

Please share your results once you've spoken with a doctor. I'm sure we're all curious.

I fully agree but have to point out again that clonazepam is equally potent as alprazolam. Clonazepam just has a much longer half-life. The subjective feeling, especially in someone without tolerance, can well be that alprazolam feels stronger. Even I, a clonazepam addict, feel the effects of alprazolam as somehow stronger. More "in your face".

Benzodiazepine equivalence table

Also clear_sky, if you want to read more about benzos and switching and tapering, I strongly recommend http://www.benzo.org.uk/ . Especially Benzodiazepines: How they work and how to withdraw. It's also called the Ashton manual after Professor C Heather Ashton, often regarded as the most prominent expert on benzo withdrawal in the world. Most doctors and psychiatrists will recommend using the Ashton manual for quitting benzos.

 

[Psychonauticunt]

Alprazolam has a more "strong" feeling to it and it is more potently anxiolytic; however, it also peaks faster, so you feel the effects quicker and more prominently - almost like a 'rush' of some sort. However, all in all in its effects, I find clonazepam about equally potent; once it reaches full effects, its muscle-relaxing properties make up for the lack in anxiolytic action. I have also read, though, that clonazepam is the benzo with the largest variance in patient response per mg.

Clonazepam is a decent alternative to diazepam; subjectively, I find it less sedative, more anxiolytic, longer-lasting in peak effects, and in general a better benzo.
Others I might recommend are lorazepam and bromazepam, which have intermediate half-lives but long enough to get you through the most of the day (if not with one, then two doses), and are more potently anxiolytic than diazepam. Bromazepam feels quite close to diazepam in its effects profile, except stronger.

 

[clear_sky]

PokePoke, I think you may have misunderstood.
I'm not trying to taper off from Diazepam. I had fully quit taking Diazepam two years ago.
Went through the whole tapering business, until I was completely benzo-free.
Things were fine for some time. However, recently I felt the need to take something for my anxiety again.
So I tried some Diazepam - no luck, just made me more tense.
So basically I've been after a benzo to replace Diazepam. Not one that I can use to taper off from Diazepam use.

Anyways. I went to see my doctor today. He wasn't too keen on prescribing clonazepam.
Something along the lines of the government not wanting it to be prescribed, etc.
He was of the opinion that I should keep taking Diazepam.. and throw some Alprazolam in the mix.
Not exactly what I was after, but I decided to give it a go, seeing as the last time I had Alprazolam was years ago.
And things may have changed since then.
Oh, bonus - I somehow ended up with a Tramadol script on top of everything else

It would be an understatement to say that I've had a really cruisey day today...
The mix seems to be doing the job, I'm definitely feeling more social.
As opposed to being completely antisocial and not wanting to see/talk to anyone.