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Detoxing with the Waismann Method?

phrozen said:
MMT is cheap as shit dude. Esepcially if you're a junkie with no job. Chances are it'll be covered by the gov't. AFAIK, Suboxone isn't, even if you were to get it at a methadone clinic.

You're right though, methadone isn't a good thing to detox with.


I agree with you guys who are saying Methadone is no good for Detox But its Great for Maintenance purposes............. They actually just started out doing Suboxone Detoxes at my methadone clinic last Week, Its not too popular for the people who are already on the Methadone because my counselor told me "You have too be off of your Methadone for 3 DAYS before switching over to suboxone AND It's More Expensive than Methadone"............


After that I didnt even ask the price.......... it my clinic its $12 a day (for Methadone), so ill stick with the Methadone so i dont have to pay More and Go through 3 days of WD's.............. Plus Iam not in it for a detox, iam in it for the Long Run, Maintenance............
 
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My Clinic Provides Both One Month Detoxes From Methadone, OR Methadone Maintenance....... The doctor lets you choose on Admission, When he asked me I said 'Maintenance, being clean for one month dosent work for anybody who has a heavy Opiate habit' and the doctor looked at me and said " Your right, he told me that the relapse rate for a 1 month detox is like 95% and I was doing the right thing, he asked me if i had friends who did One month Methadone detoxes before" and i told him "yes" and he said are they using right now and i said "Yes" Because He was right It Really IS True.......... Most of the end up back on dope or back ion Methadone................
 
MethaContin said:
This Guy was willing to pay $15,000 NOT to feel his Withdrawal Symptoms, After a year of heroin use they can be pretty bad........ I dont know the detox of heroin but i DO know the detox of Oxycodone and Morphine (2 Different Times) and wouldnt wish that on anybdy............



Man, if I were you i'd go for Straight Up Methadone Maintenance...........


No way. MMT for a 1 year habit is crazy and they probably wouldn't let you on any way. How long would you stay on it? A year? Now you just doubled the length of your addiction. Then you still have to detox off of the methadone. I have been shooting H for about 7 years, so if I stay on MMT for 2 years, it isn't that a big a deal. It will keep me clean, I detox and move on. But if I was only on H for a year adn got on MMT, I would be doubling the length of my habit. It makes no sense.

Also, I have done a few detoxes w/o any kind of opiates. They medicate the shit out of you, so it really is not bad at all. The first 2 or 3 days you are so out of it, you usually just sleep. After that, it's not bad at all. They give you a ton of meds, so you don't feel a whole lot. The only really bad part was the restless legs at night. That would keep me up for a while, but every hour or so they would give me ashot of magnesium or halcion or something and after a while you are out.
 
^ Interesting. It sounds like the place you went to detox was really kind to you if they give you so many meds. I'm guessing it's not like that everywhere. Since there's such a negative social stigma when it comes to opiate experience, I'm sure some doctors think addicts should be in pain when withdrawing and they don't care because they know opiate withdrawal is not life threatening for the average healthy person.

I don't have any first hand experience with hospitalized detox, I've always taken matters into my own hands, but I realize that for some people this just isn't possible. I'd be interested to hear other's experiences.
 
people tend to fail/relapse especially with the ultra rapid detox because after abusing your neurotransmitters for prolonged heroin use you are then forcing all opiates off of your receptors with the narcan. Your now depressed and have anxiety due the inability to produce your own endorphins. So now your synapse is sitting there like an empty bic lighter just flicking a spark with no gas. yeah you dont feel the acute physical withdrawals but you need something to replace. This is why suboxen/methadone work much better. If not youd be left feeling like when they give you narcan for an overdose after the horrible w/d part is over. Icky icky, icky. Anybody who thinks urd will work long term is crazy.
Also if your using more than a gram a day sub. will not work on many people. When i had a 2 gram a day habit 24 mg sub didnt work. This is why they will not let you transfer from a methadone program to sub. until you are down to 30 mg. Sub is not for people with serious habits. Anyway with a 2 gram a day habit you need some other form of replacement therarpy. There has been too much damage done where you will have PAWS like everyone does. This is the major problem and this is from not replacings endorphins either naturally or chemically.
 
sonic said:
^ Interesting. It sounds like the place you went to detox was really kind to you if they give you so many meds. I'm guessing it's not like that everywhere. Since there's such a negative social stigma when it comes to opiate experience, I'm sure some doctors think addicts should be in pain when withdrawing and they don't care because they know opiate withdrawal is not life threatening for the average healthy person.

I don't have any first hand experience with hospitalized detox, I've always taken matters into my own hands, but I realize that for some people this just isn't possible. I'd be interested to hear other's experiences.


Ya, I went to this place several times. The doc's name is Dr. Carter and they call it giving you a Carter Cocktail. He gives you so much shit you are just gone for a few days. I went twice and things worked out well. Then the last 2 times i went, I was high when I went in, cuz ya know, I'm a junky. But I think doing that really fucked me up. 1 time I guess I stopped breathing or was breathing so shallow they called an ambulance cuz i fell over in the hallway. The next time, I went in on Friday afternoon and woke up in the county psyche ward on Sunday afternoon. All I remember is like 2, 2 second clips. 1 I was in an ambilance w/ a cop screaming at me and the next one I was strapped to a hospital bed. I am not a violent person at all, but they said I attacked a nurse. I was like WTF!! My family wouldn't come get me, they were pissed. To this day I try to tell them that wasn't my fault, but they just say, ya right. I really don't think it was, they gave me so many drugs I slept for 2 entire days, how is some shit I did in a drug induced haze my fault?

Well, I guess if I wasn't so damn high when I got there things may have gone better, but they should expect people to come in stoned. At least I think that is why that happened. That is the only difference between the 2 times nothing happened (wasn't stoned at intake) and the 2 times all hell broke loose(was stoned at intake).
 
At the two hospitalized detoxes I went to, they didn't really over medicate you (for opiate dependent patients). I happened to be dual dependent on both benzos and opiates, so they gave me subutex with ativan. I got vistoril also, which I thought to be useless at the time.

Both detoxes used subutex along with ativan and vistoril to help "sleep" at night. Oh yeah, and chamomille tea! That helped a ton... pff lol

One of the facilities was located in southern Florida, while the other was in New Jersey. Relatively the same type of detox, almost identical to be honest.
 
sonic said:
I don't have any first hand experience with hospitalized detox, I've always taken matters into my own hands, but I realize that for some people this just isn't possible. I'd be interested to hear other's experiences.


Most ppl try to deal with it on their own or with mates who are also users. It always astounds me that so many ppl simply dont think of all the help and support they can recieve from gov't agencies that is very low on cost etc. Asking for proffessional opinions from different sources will give you a clearer picture from a proffessional perspective. Even if you can take away something from asking, its better than nothing.
 
i detoxed from my rx'ed oxy 155 mg a day, they just took me down 10mg a day every 3 days and i had 0 withdrawls, it took 12 days but they only detoxed me from the oxycontin which was 40mg 2x a day and i felt little to no discomfort and when i did i had a bottle of 100 something percocet to get rid of the feelings and it worked really well just try to taper your self off if you can.
 
biggerstronger said:
Again, I am strongly against this type of treatment. Listen to smackem and search for all of the horror stories involving ultra rapid detox. It is not a miracle cure like you are making it out to be. Someone who shoots 2 grams of dope to over power suboxone to get high has some serious issues and apparently was never ready to quit. I suggest you get on a methadone program. You might miss a few days of work while getting adjusted but there is no way in hell that you will be able to quit your habit without massive w/d symptoms after the two days of supposed treatment. You are delusional and naive to think that you can magically erase a long term drug addiction is two days with the magic cure. Completely and utterly naive. No amount of money is going to save you the horrors of withdrawal from such a nasty habit. You should seriously consider OST (opiate substitution therapy) such as suboxone or Methadone in your case since you claim the suboxone didn't work. Do that for awhile then taper down from that and stop when you are ready. Frankly, I don't think you ever really did the program correctly to even attempt to get cleaned up as shown by your taking 2grams of dope to get high while on the suboxone. No wonder why it didn't work for you.
I think you misunderstood. 1) I don't shoot heroin, I smoke it which I think makes a difference. I think shooting it up is a far worst and harder addiction to kick rather than smoking it. And 2) I didn't do that heroin after taking suboxone because I thought thats the way suboxone works (duh), I did it because I was feeling really bad on the suboxone and I couldn't handle it so I went back to heroin. I was just stating that I had to SMOKE 2 grams of H in order to get back to feeling "normal".

Also I don't think methadone is the answer to anything. In my opinion its just the legal form of heroin so the government gets a nice tax off of a sickness that a person cant keep. I hear horror stories of methadone all the time and especially how dangerous it can be if you accidentally miss a dose. I need a solution thats simply going to help me get off and i'll work on the PAWS as it comes. I think the Coleman Institute has the most realistic solution that I'm going to try out.
 
bulldog8b said:
It took about 5 days total. The first day i went to the doctor's office and they took blood, BP, all that stuff. Then they told you what is going to happen and they give you the meds. Then the next 3 or 4 days you just chill at home, you're kinda out of it cuz of the valium and shit, but OK. You can't go to work though. The on the lat day you go back to the doc's office and are there for like 6-8 hours. So, all in all you have to miss about a week of work, or 5 days and the weekend, however you want to look at it.

I relapsed cuz I wasn't ready to stop doing drugs. I just went through the detox cuz it's what my family wanted, I was kind of tired of it and thought I would quit, not because I really wanted to, just because at the time it was easier. So, I relapsed ultimately cuz I wasn't ready to quit.

And yes, the one I went to was in CA, actually in La Mirada. I live in Riverside, so I am about an hour from you. You are even closer to the place than me. I think they have anotiher office somewhere else in LA also.

Lastly, no, I didn't really feel any w/d's. When I was at home, before the narcan, they gave me tramadol. I was doing about 2 grams of heroin IV per day and they gave me enough tramadol so that I didn't really get sick at all. Plus they give you valium and some other shit, so it's not bad at all. When they gave me the narcan was the only part that was uncomfortable and the only bad part about that was short bouts of restless legs. I was heavily sedated but sometimes got that restless legs, can't sit still feeling, but the doc would give me more sedatives and I made it through OK.

I have a buddy who did it also at the same place, his habit was smaller than mine and he went through it even easier than I did. He just slept all the way through the narcan day.
Thanks for taking the time and answering my questions :) Sorry its taken me a while to write back to you but I've been really busy because of the holidays right now.

I know you said you experienced no withdrawal symptoms but how is that? They told me when you start it and they put you on the meds and stuff that they give you no opiates, just other meds to put you in a sedated zone as you said but how do you not experience any chills, cold sweats, diarrhea, body aching, vomiting, and/or any other symptoms when lacking heroin? Also what is tramadol for? The thing that just gets me really scared is the combination of chills, cold sweats, and body aching... I'm weak when it comes to that but if the meds they put you on don't make you feel that then that would be great.

Lastly, they said that they prescribe you with meds even before your first appointment that should help you because they want you to not have done any opiates at least 24 hours before your visit. Does what they prescribe you contain any opiates and how long did you wait before you started taking them? I know I feel pretty crappy and start to withdrawal if I don't do any within 12 hours then its all down hill.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and your support, I really appreciate it :)
 
bulldog8b said:
Ya, I went to this place several times. The doc's name is Dr. Carter and they call it giving you a Carter Cocktail. He gives you so much shit you are just gone for a few days. I went twice and things worked out well. Then the last 2 times i went, I was high when I went in, cuz ya know, I'm a junky. But I think doing that really fucked me up. 1 time I guess I stopped breathing or was breathing so shallow they called an ambulance cuz i fell over in the hallway. The next time, I went in on Friday afternoon and woke up in the county psyche ward on Sunday afternoon. All I remember is like 2, 2 second clips. 1 I was in an ambilance w/ a cop screaming at me and the next one I was strapped to a hospital bed. I am not a violent person at all, but they said I attacked a nurse. I was like WTF!! My family wouldn't come get me, they were pissed. To this day I try to tell them that wasn't my fault, but they just say, ya right. I really don't think it was, they gave me so many drugs I slept for 2 entire days, how is some shit I did in a drug induced haze my fault?

Well, I guess if I wasn't so damn high when I got there things may have gone better, but they should expect people to come in stoned. At least I think that is why that happened. That is the only difference between the 2 times nothing happened (wasn't stoned at intake) and the 2 times all hell broke loose(was stoned at intake).
Is this Carter Cocktail thing part of the Coleman Institute treatment or are you talking about another detox treatment that you went to?
 
canj00feelit? said:
At the two hospitalized detoxes I went to, they didn't really over medicate you (for opiate dependent patients). I happened to be dual dependent on both benzos and opiates, so they gave me subutex with ativan. I got vistoril also, which I thought to be useless at the time.

Both detoxes used subutex along with ativan and vistoril to help "sleep" at night. Oh yeah, and chamomille tea! That helped a ton... pff lol

One of the facilities was located in southern Florida, while the other was in New Jersey. Relatively the same type of detox, almost identical to be honest.
Just to be clear, you were being completely sarcastic about the stuff the gave you to sleep actually working right? I know when I was on suboxone before sleeping was an issue that was hard to deal with. I think valium is the answer there but I'm no doctor.
 
Citizenui: "How can someone recommend methadone to someone wanting to detox from a 1 year habit?": VERY EASILY. Methadone is not the bogeyman many think it to be. Its withdrawals, while at least twice as long as most opiates/opioids, including heroin, are very, very mild.

Even if they were incredibly stressful, MMT might offer a person a badly needed higher level of stability. I know too many people who had been denied MMT due to such considerations (used to be the usual thing back in the day ...had to have been using so many years,etc.) and many of them had terrible lives due to their illegal addictions. Needless to say, some died.

Then, in some nations MMT is allowed while Bupe/Sub is not.

The picture is never black and white.
 
sonic said:
^I don't have any first hand experience with hospitalized detox, I've always taken matters into my own hands, but I realize that for some people this just isn't possible. I'd be interested to hear other's experiences.

as most BLers have probably surmised, the majority of detoxes do not occur under medical supervision, planned and unplanned ones. an addiction expert i took a course from made the persuasive argument that the majority of people who abuse drugs end up quitting with little or no medical help; typically, the addict goes through several, unsupervised detoxes on his/her own before shedding the addiction, like the ones dan described.

my professor's agument was that, further, there are obviously some people who get into deep addictions that require medical intervention but that there are far fewer of those proportional to the number of addicts than the general public believes there are...as is evidenced by, eg, A&E's Intvernetion slogan 'millions of americans are addicted to drugs. most need help to stop.'

he had various papers on chippers and so forth, but i think the most compelling piece of evidence he presented came from analysis of the Vietnam vet heroin addicts. heroin usage by the soldiers was very common. the zero-tolerance-drugs-are-the-devil-drugs=communism' ideology was being further cemented, and several researchers quickly published studies showing that once the vets used heroin, the majority couldn't quit.

however, all of those papers used vets who were in rehab as their subjects; none questioned random samples of soldiers, aside from one study. the studies who used the rehab vets found that about 90% of the vets were still addicted to heroin three years later whereas the study of the random sample of vets found that 5-10% were still addicted three years later and only 3% five years later.

oh, and the random sample was made up of soldiers who used heroin while in Vietnam.

he argued that using rehab facilities to recruit samples for threat of addiction studies was not accurately portraying how the average person would respond to using even very euphoric substances. presumably, there is something unusual about the in-and-out-rehabbers that makes them unusually predisposed to a fierce addiction.

i was especially pleased to hear this argument made by my professor for its implications regarding zero-tolerance: that is, access to even 'hard' drugs is not as dangerous as we are led to believe it to be. if it weren't for our fucked-up political landscape, many adults would be able to enjoy heroin or cocaine or [insert any drug here] occasionally without becoming instant addicts.


hmm, somehow i veered way off topic....
 
^ Thanks for that post. Its interesting. It just goes to show how certain things can be used to portray drugs in a negative manner. No one realizes that these studies are only sampling a certain portion of society, usually a minor demographic (not necessarily a certain race, but using a group of people in rehab, as the above study did) and leaving out a whole huge number of people who go against what these studies are saying.
 
I think if the OP can burn so much cash he should try Ibogaine threapy... It'll prolly work better
 
jake.conk said:
Is this Carter Cocktail thing part of the Coleman Institute treatment or are you talking about another detox treatment that you went to?
Carter Cocktail is just what the nurses around the detox place called all the drugs he gave. It doesn't really mean anything, just a little joke around there because he gives out so much stuff that people are just gone for the first 2 or 3 days. It is just his own little "cocktail" of meds.
 
jake.conk said:
Thanks for taking the time and answering my questions :) Sorry its taken me a while to write back to you but I've been really busy because of the holidays right now.

I know you said you experienced no withdrawal symptoms but how is that? They told me when you start it and they put you on the meds and stuff that they give you no opiates, just other meds to put you in a sedated zone as you said but how do you not experience any chills, cold sweats, diarrhea, body aching, vomiting, and/or any other symptoms when lacking heroin? Also what is tramadol for? The thing that just gets me really scared is the combination of chills, cold sweats, and body aching... I'm weak when it comes to that but if the meds they put you on don't make you feel that then that would be great.

Lastly, they said that they prescribe you with meds even before your first appointment that should help you because they want you to not have done any opiates at least 24 hours before your visit. Does what they prescribe you contain any opiates and how long did you wait before you started taking them? I know I feel pretty crappy and start to withdrawal if I don't do any within 12 hours then its all down hill.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and your support, I really appreciate it :)


The tramadol is to keep away the opiate w/d's. Look up tramadol or ultram, there is a ton of discussion about it here also. It is an opiod, I think. I know it was marketed as a non_narcotic pain killer, but I do believe that it is at least a partial opiod agonist. Anyway, it keeps away the w/d's. They don't give you any other opiates/o[piods, just stuff like valium, clonodine, sleeping pills, etc. The tramadol works pretty well to keep the w/d's away, not 100%, but it does it's job.
 
IForgett said:
^ Thanks for that post. Its interesting. It just goes to show how certain things can be used to portray drugs in a negative manner. No one realizes that these studies are only sampling a certain portion of society, usually a minor demographic (not necessarily a certain race, but using a group of people in rehab, as the above study did) and leaving out a whole huge number of people who go against what these studies are saying.

that is a very important corollary point to what i was arguing.

also, a few things to add to what i was saying....(i was a little out of it when i wrote that because i have four long papers due next week and then exams after that, so i've def been behind on sleep).....

one point is that many of you may read that and think, hey, most addicts i know have had lots of medical intervention before they stop, so the argument that most people stop on their own doesn't sound reasonable based on my personal experience. well, it's true that many addicts seek some sort of medical help, be it rehab or methadone or whatever, but if you think about the majority of them, when push comes to shove, most relapse after rehab and just use maintenance therapy because they're not ready to quit

....when they do decide to quit, many actually don't seek medical help because they've realized the futility of rehab and the replacing-one-drug-with-another aspect of maintenance drugs. ultimately, many figure out how to do it on their own without much, if any, medical supervision....perhaps psychotherapy, i suppose, to get to the root of the problem, but, again, that's not intensive medical treatment. it's not as if they go into impatient mental hospitals. NA or similar programs are another way people quit.

*that's not to say that intensive rehab is not necessary for the minority of addicts that have that special predisposition i referred to in my original post*

....which brings me to my next point....perhaps predisposition is not a word that covers all of the special issues a person can have that make dappling with hard drugs playing with fire in terms of delving into un-conquerable addiction. stressful circumstance (eg, a traumatic event or chronic trauma/stress) and an environemtn where drug use is accepted and even encouraged, esp as a child, as well as mental health problems and genetic predispositons can all be special issues that increase the development of chronic addiction.

stressful circumstances can change, which may make quitting possible, but many stressful circumstances, such as longterm, inescapable abuse abuse can last for years and years....obviously genetic predispotions, pro-substance abuse environments esp childhood ones aren't as easily 'solvable,' and mental health problems and subsequent relief in self-medication make addiction more difficult to overcome.

also, i think that any addiction, whether deeply ingrained or personally overcomable, has some cause, including all of the special issues i listed above. however, i think there are other contributing factors such as degree of issue, outside social support, and other motivations for quitting that one can truly care about (or maybe it's better said as external opportunities....i know people say one can only quit for his/hersef but maybe having/threat of losing amazing opportunities can make one want to quit for oneself).

additionally, i think people sometimes grow out of addiction. they jjust move one. sure, they have to deal with shitty WD, but they are just ready, and they tend not to be people with major special issues.
 
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