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Debunking myth of uncomplexed 25I-NBOMe HCL potency

G

gallagher

Greenlighter
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
6
Mods please move this if you feel so to the Big & Dandy...
So, the web is filled with all sorts of contradictory statements about dosage, potency, and intake of the NBOMe family. Some say that 500ug HCL (not freebase) is every bit as active as 500ug complexed 25I-NBOMe.

What are your feelings about this?
Does this depend on ROA, meaning that only intranasal HCL is comparable to complex 25I-NBOME, or also every other ROA?
 
There's one, thanks for responding.

Perhaps we should wait a couple more replies before we arrive at a consensus? Or is this definite, and 500ug complexed +-= 500ug non-complexed HCL?
Then it would be less about hydrophobia and more about form what accounts for absorption.
 
Never Knows Best said:
People complex 25x-NBOMe freebase to increase absorption, it is unecessary with the HCl, AFAIK.
Click to expand...

If you have freebase, though, you can easily add some muriatic acid to convert it to HCl. So complexing seems to be unnecessary in all cases.
 
This has been covered in the threads. Someone said something to the effect of "if it's not complexed it can't be good" and here was my response:

I read Tregar's posts so I believed complexing is important so I ordered some 25C blotters complexed with cyclodextrin. I have some other blotters from a different vendor that were not complexed and the non complexed blotters were stronger. Maybe they carried more drug, I don't know. But in my experience I got good results with blotters there were not complexed.

And the response from a knowledgeable Bluelighter:

It only has to be complexed if it's freebase. The uncomplexed blotters you had that worked best was most certainly in the HCl form.

Start reading here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/617972-The-Big-amp-Dandy-25I-NBOMe-Thread-(2nd-edition)?p=10577421&viewfull=1#post10577421
 
There is a common misconception here on bluelight that HPBCD complexing is done to solubilise the freebase. It isn't, it's done to make the salt easier to absorb.
 
I have comparable experiences with complexed and uncomplexed blotters of hcl. I found no difference in potency.
 
Anon0631 said:
There is a common misconception here on bluelight that HPBCD complexing is done to solubilise the freebase. It isn't, it's done to make the salt easier to absorb.
Click to expand...

That makes no sense to me - I have never had any absorption issues with the salt form.
 
Personally I have never taken uncomplexed nbome via buccal ROA but there were in the past apparently really inconsistent results reported by people taking blotters at a given dosage.

I'm coming down from 750mics of 25c taken as a HPBCD complexed blotter kept between the cheek and gum for 40 minutes. It was every bit as potent as the same dosage snorted. Nice visuals.
 
FrontierPsychiatry said:
What is HPBCD complexing? What chemical is it complexed with?
Click to expand...

HPBCD (hydroxy propyl beta cyclo dextrin) - it acts as a sort of molecular condom, encircling the hydrophobic part of the 25x-nbome molecule thereby aiding delivery across mucous membranes.
 
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Anon0631 said:
Personally I have never taken uncomplexed nbome via buccal ROA but there were in the past apparently really inconsistent results reported by people taking blotters at a given dosage.

I'm coming down from 750mics of 25c taken as a HPBCD complexed blotter kept between the cheek and gum for 40 minutes. It was every bit as potent as the same dosage snorted. Nice visuals.
Click to expand...

Maybe those blotters were laid with freebase (or whatever the non-soluble form is that's going around)? I make my own blotters and have done 0.8mg, 1mg, and 1.2mg doses several times each, and gotten consistent results for each dose. Haven't tried snorting so I can't compare to that, but uncomplexed salts seem plenty potent to me.
 
Uncomplexed salts certainly DO work just fine, but I have had pretty noticeable differences with freebase complexed 25i vs. uncompelxed salts at similar dosages with several trails. The freebase material was markedly stronger at 1mg with less associated body load (possibly because of the need for less material?)

Take it for what you will.
 
Anon0631 said:
There is a common misconception here on bluelight that HPBCD complexing is done to solubilise the freebase. It isn't, it's done to make the salt easier to absorb.
Click to expand...

Where did you manage to get this info from? Because the HPBCD is used to complex the freebase form to make it easier to absorb through the mucous membrane. The salt already can be absorbed just fine, no need to complex.
 
LSDreamer13 said:
Where did you manage to get this info from? Because the HPBCD is used to complex the freebase form to make it easier to absorb through the mucous membrane. The salt already can be absorbed just fine, no need to complex.
Click to expand...

Have you ever tried to solubilise an NBOMe salt in distilled water? The first thing that happens is that it all clumps up. That happens because the water loving side of the molecules face outward while the water fearing side of the molecules face inward. Lots of shaking and moderate heat is usually enough to remedy this by continually dissolving the outside layer of the clump exposing a new layer of molecules which display the same behaviour. Eventually, it's all in solution. This is is a sign of what is know as it's "hydrophobic" nature.

The problem with the freebase is not that it's hydrophobic, it's that it's insoluble in H2O. This can easily be remedied by adding an a small amount of acid to the water which will convert the freebase into a salt. If complexation was a method to solubilise the freebase, it would be a bit silly. The expense and time compared with adding a tiny drop of HCl makes it a ridiculous strategy. HCl is a hell of a lot easier to get hold of than HPBCD, is a lot cheaper and requires fractions of the amount of HPBCD necessary to do the job.

If you want sources, Google "nbome hydrophobic" and enjoy a couple of hours reading.

FYI, this trait is inherited from the 2c family which also contain a hydrophobic substitution at the 4 position but as there's no reason for buccal/sublingual absorption with these compounds, there's no need to complex them.

Of course you can get off on uncomplexed salts to the same degree if you hold the blotter in your mouth for an hour and don't swallow any saliva but not everybody is so disciplined. Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that complexed salts lead to less inconsistency at a given dose.
 
Anon0631 said:
Have you ever tried to solubilise an NBOMe salt in distilled water? The first thing that happens is that it all clumps up. That happens because the water loving side of the molecules face outward while the water fearing side of the molecules face inward. Lots of shaking and moderate heat is usually enough to remedy this by continually dissolving the outside layer of the clump exposing a new layer of molecules which display the same behaviour. Eventually, it's all in solution. This is is a sign of what is know as it's "hydrophobic" nature.
Click to expand...
this is not my experience with 25I.HCl. It disperses in solution and dissolves with heating, like any other poorly soluble solid.
If you want sources, Google "nbome hydrophobic" and enjoy a couple of hours reading.

FYI, this trait is inherited from the 2c family which also contain a hydrophobic substitution at the 4 position but as there's no reason for buccal/sublingual absorption with these compounds, there's no need to complex them.

Of course you can get off on uncomplexed salts to the same degree if you hold the blotter in your mouth for an hour and don't swallow any saliva but not everybody is so disciplined. Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that complexed salts lead to less inconsistency at a given dose.
Click to expand...
Telling people to google is not an appropriate method of referencing. I know it's a drag, but at the very least providing sources in thread at least means we're all discussing the same thing. I would be surprised if there is any primary literature relating to the solubility of NBOMes.

At the end of the day, we only have anecdotal data to discuss here. Even that is very poor because of the highly subjective nature of psychedelics.
 
Transform said:
Telling people to google is not an appropriate method of referencing. I know it's a drag, but at the very least providing sources in thread at least means we're all discussing the same thing. I would be surprised if there is any primary literature relating to the solubility of NBOMes.
Click to expand...

This primary research was the result of a 20 second trip to google. Add an N-Benzyl on one end of 2c-b and you still have a molecule which is hydrophobic on the other end.

The point I'm making is that there is a world of information outside of bluelight where hearsay and rumour are circulated ad-infinitum until they are considered fact. There is zero point in HPBCD complexing the freebase rather than turning into a salt. There is another, more technical reason for complexation.
 
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Anon0631 said:
The problem with the freebase is not that it's hydrophobic, it's that it's insoluble in H2O. This can easily be remedied by adding an a small amount of acid to the water which will convert the freebase into a salt. If complexation was a method to solubilise the freebase, it would be a bit silly. The expense and time compared with adding a tiny drop of HCl makes it a ridiculous strategy. HCl is a hell of a lot easier to get hold of than HPBCD, is a lot cheaper and requires fractions of the amount of HPBCD necessary to do the job.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I kept pointing out a few months ago when all of those greenlighters were popping up on the 25I threads asking the same questions over and over again about how to complex freebase and how to lay it on blotters. But this myth that freebase doesn't work unless you complex it doesn't seem to want to die...

Of course you can get off on uncomplexed salts to the same degree if you hold the blotter in your mouth for an hour and don't swallow any saliva but not everybody is so disciplined. Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that complexed salts lead to less inconsistency at a given dose.
Click to expand...

FWIW I've found that I only need to keep uncomplexed blotter in for a half hour, and I'm usually starting to feel it already within 10-15 minutes of putting it in. And it doesn't seem to matter much if I swallow my saliva or not. At some point I'll probably get around to making up some complexed blotters to compare, but so far I've been getting good results with uncomplexed salts, so I haven't bothered. Maybe it's because the "blotters" I make are really strips of paper towel about an inch and a half long, and that allows for plenty of space for the NBOMe molecules to spread out over the surface of the paper, giving a greater surface area in contact with the gums and making the hydrophobicity less of a problem. Just speculating...

But yeah, I'm glad to see someone else posting about the silliness of complexing freebase. :)
 
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