[Debate] What is ego-death?

[pmoseman]

Well now I am just confused again. Couldn't that just be considered an error in judgement?
Can't a person spontaneously believe they are dead. I know it is a question anyone might consider, how do I now know anything is real, how do I know anything exists, what if there is no death and everyday I am living someone else's life?
What if I am already dead?

 

[Xorkoth]

Interesting questions, I used to constantly wonder about that when I was a kid. But it's one thing to ponder these questions from a calm place, intellectually, and another completely to be in the throes of an overwhelming experience and be convinced of your death. I mean I guess you could say it's an error in judgement, technically, because you later come to realize you didn't die. But that doesn't really have any bearing on the actual experience. The experience is the realization, struggle, and acceptance of your death, whether it's literal or not. And usually following this is an apparent flood of knowledge and perspective about the nature of things. It seems more to me like a natural reaction to a tremendously powerful experience.

 

[pmoseman]

I always took those thoughts seriously. How do you know what you see is real? I could be laying on a bed somewhere and completely out of my mind!
I mean that is just day dreaming, ya... sure... but how does day dreaming differ from ego death?

 

[Ismene]

I've never had any terror of dying on psychedelics. And I've taken doses high enough to stun a charging silverback gorilla. Perhaps it's more to do with people not being able to handle their high and panicking.

 

[pmoseman]

ALL experiences are subjective, life itself is one big subjective experience.

First off, which Michael Hofmann?

Secondly, on Descartes, I think he was digging further into the rabbit hole than you seem to give him credit for.

Thirdly, referring to the above quote, it seems to me all we can guarantee is real in a direct way is subjective experience, but in theory there is nothing subjective about me closing the space between your head and a baseball bat... unless you were up for that purely subjective experience. All experiences might be subjective. I don't see how you can guarantee one or the other.

 

[pmoseman]

I've never had any terror of dying on psychedelics. And I've taken doses high enough to stun a charging silverback gorilla. Perhaps it's more to do with people not being able to handle their high and panicking.

I know they gave those research animals some strong doses. Is this statement accurate?

 

[Solipsis]

I don't about ego death, but I do believe in deja vu.

What exactly is there to believe about deja vu? Do you think there is more to it than a neurological phenomenon that can be explained (for example here)?

 

[phuckingnutz]

Sol, it was a joke. I only said that because Pman was parroting Xorkoth word for word...

damndramadramadramadramaadnauseum

 

[pmoseman]

Sol, it was a joke. I only said that because Pman was parroting Xorkoth word for word...

damndramadramadramadramaadnauseum

It's true.

 

[swilow]

Whats "true"?

 

[max_freakout]

I've never had any terror of dying on psychedelics. And I've taken doses high enough to stun a charging silverback gorilla.

Dosage is not the only factor that determines the outcome of a psychedelic trip session (although it is very important). Per Leary, the crucial factors in tripping are dosage, set and setting.

 

[pmoseman]

Dosage is not the only factor that determines the outcome of a psychedelic trip session (although it is very important). Per Leary, the crucial factors in tripping are dosage, set and setting.

Set cannot be a factor.
I asked you something earlier.

Whats "true"?

It was nearly word for word but I deleted the comment.
I have no idea what else was said.

 

[swilow]

Attempted broad metaphysical/semantic question failed I see.

Set cannot be a factor.

Again, do expand...

 

[Ismene]

Dosage is not the only factor that determines the outcome of a psychedelic trip session (although it is very important). Per Leary, the crucial factors in tripping are dosage, set and setting.

Yes but if your "set" is that you are the kind of person who cannot handle your high perhaps you experience things other people wouldn't.

 

[pmoseman]

Attempted broad metaphysical/semantic question failed I see.



Again, do expand...

Yes. If that was what you were going for it failed miserably.

You cannot measure a set and predict outcomes. The researcher saw a pattern and believed in this but it was never tested correctly.

The only set that predicts behavior is the set the researcher gives by telling the subject what to expect. That is what is meant by set and it effects every experiment with a human test subject (placebo-effect).

A personality set of the type expoused by Bluelighters is too complex. To say it is a factor is to say it can be measured and predictive. This had never been done.

The other kind if set, of course, but that is not what set means around here.

 

[max_freakout]

Set cannot be a factor.

Set is a hugely important factor that has a major influence on the outcome of a trip, for example if you take LSD in a recreational context expecting to have a fun time socialising with friends etc, then you are unlikely to experience the deep internal experiences. A psychedelic trip is highly dependant on the context of usage. Similarly, if you take LSD when you are very unhappy right after a close family member has died, the emotions relating to the bereavement are very likely to be a part of the trip experience. So set is a hugely important factor.

I asked you something earlier.

The relevant websites with the information about Michael Hoffman's ego death theory are www.egodeath.com and https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/egodeath/info

 

[max_freakout]

To say it is a factor is to say it can be measured and predictive.

This ^ is incorrect, the factors that influence a trip arent necessarily measurable and/or predictable, something might come up during a trip that is unexpected, for an unexpected reason.

For example getting arrested by police during a trip is a significant factor towards how the trip is experienced (related to setting), but this is not going to be predictable in advance of the trip

 

[swilow]

Yes. If that was what you were going for it failed miserably.

Gee thanks a bunch 8)

You cannot measure a set and predict outcomes. The researcher saw a pattern and believed in this but it was never tested correctly.

The only set that predicts behavior is the set the researcher gives by telling the subject what to expect. That is what is meant by set and it effects every experiment with a human test subject (placebo-effect).

A personality set of the type expoused by Bluelighters is too complex. To say it is a factor is to say it can be measured and predictive. This had never been done.

The other kind if set, of course, but that is not what set means around here.

I have no idea what the majority of that means especially the last sentence, but in the context of psychedelic trips, by set, most people are referring to mindset, generally a subjective and often transient quality that most individuals are relatively good at self-reporting.

 

[pmoseman]

It is not mindset they are taking about when the researchers talk about set.

Set is being informed what the drug will do.

If you do tell someone that LSD is a powerful hallucinogen and explain what the effects are or can be, then they have proper set.

It is like ready, set, go; not mind-set. You can believe that set is hugely important like you believe astrology is important for a horoscope or race is important for a vocation, but it is not based on science.

Mindset is just too complex.

Without proper set people can have a confusing experience that is rationally upsetting.

 

[max_freakout]

It is not mindset they are taking about when the researchers talk about set.

Set is being informed what the drug will do.

This ^ is uninformed nonsense, a total misunderstanding about what 'set' means in the context of psychedelic experiencing

'Set' is a concept that was defined by Tim Leary (in his book: 'the psychedelic experience') to mean essentially the "mindset" of the tripper in advance of the trip experience. Set is everything that the tripper brings to the trip experience, all the psychological baggage that the tripper carries with them before the trip that they bring themselves to their psychedelic experience. Contrast this to 'dosage' and 'setting' which are both external, physical factors; 'set' is an internal, psychological factor.

Set includes the tripper's prior expectations about what psychedelic drugs are supposed to do, their own personal context and understanding of their drug usage. This is influenced by what other people have told them about what the drug will do, as you correctly identify here ^. But set also includes a wide range of aspects besides their prior information about what the drug will do, such as the tripper's emotional state prior to the trip, and their intelligence level.