Dancesafe operating on outdated info?

[BigTrancer]

In a section updated on Aug 16 2001, on the dancesafe website, detailing the instructions for their range of testers, dancesafe make the following comment:

If the powder contains an ecstasy-like substance (MDMA, MDA, or MDE), the reagent will immediately turn dark green/turquoise and then change right away to a dark blue (almost black). All this will happen very quickly so watch closely. This is a positive test for an ecstasy-like substance.
If this happens, proceed to Step #2, Simon's reagent, to determine whether your pill contains only MDA, or whether it contains MDMA or MDE. (Note: No reagent currently exists that can distinguish MDMA from MDE. The claim that has been made by "EZ-test," the for-profit company in Holland, that this is possible is not true. Their kits simply contain Marquis reagent, nothing more. MDE, it should also be noted, is very rare.
Quoted from: http://www.dancesafe.org/testingkits/instructions.php

If I've taking this statement out of context (?) then I apologise, but I feel the need to stick up for EZ-Test. I have never had a problem with their service, or product, and I haven't seen any claims in recent times from EZ-Test that their testers can discriminate between MDMA and MDE, particularly with the advent of the EZ-Test Supreme. Perhaps dancesafe are using outdated information (old 1997 color chart)? Either that or they may have misinterpreted the main page statement that "The most important feature of an EZ Test is its capacity to distinguish between fake pills and pills containing Ecstasy-like substances; MDMA, MDEA and MDA." (www.eztest.com)
Just thought I'd mention it.
BigTrancer

------------------
Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.

 

[johnboy]

wow, what a bitchy comment "the for profit company"...
the only thing i can think of is the (now two years old) original colour chart that was shipped with the earliest batches of Ez Test (Marquis). see here.
this colour chart was quickly withdrawn by EZ Test, after comment by local harm min groups. there's still a link to it, buried deep on the Ez Test site, but there's a very clear disclaimer attached to it.

 

[aj]

Yes, bitchy it is....
I am not going to say anything yet.
Leave that up to you.
What interests me about the whole thing is that apparently Mecke is better than Marquis. To make things more marketable (now, who's working for profit), they simply put DXM and Ecstasy like substances in one color....
How strange. DXM is clearly distinguisable from Ecstasy like substances with Marquis, our Marquis, EZ Test Marquis. There will always be purple (if Ecstasy like) with marquis. DXM will NEVER show purple.
The only danger would be a mix of DXM and MDMA. In their new marketing plan, they simply 'forgot' to mention that ?
Well, there are many more things to report about their 'new' testkits' and they way they provide information.
To be continued.
Anyone has good info on substances that may go the same color as Ecstasy like substances, with Mecke ?
aj

 

[Soma]

Well, funny you should mention that - Johnboy and I were having a not to dissimilar icq conversation this afternoon.
codine, heroin etc will give a flase positive for MDMA.

 

[stonybroke]

try testing every day chems (even soft drinks) results are amusing(to me anyway).

 

[aj]

Yes but codeine and (some) other opiates will go some kind of reddish/purplish with Marquis as well. I've been looking into Mecke (as far as my knowledge goes) and that DEA thing, http://ncjrs.aspensys.com/pdffiles1/nij/183258.pdf , only mentions a colorchange for MDA (with Mecke). I wonder how DanceSafe validated their new (Mecke) test.
Could it be possible that the different MDXX display different colors with Mecke ? What will MDEA display (they don't mention that, just MDE). What about MBDB ? The DEA thing says nothing about Speed or Meth. Their reaction sheet leaves Speed out as well. How will Speed or Meth react to Mecke ?
I would also like to know if someone has a scientific (theoretical) explanation for the colorchange of PMA or PMMA with Mecke (Roches ?).
There seem to be quite a few substances that display the same color as Ecstasylike substances with Mecke. However, these substances are (as far as I know) not sold as Ecstasy like substances. (Check the DEA sheet)
The DEA thing also says that Mecke reacts with sugar ? What color would that be ?
Well, a lot of questions about Mecke ;-)
aj

 

[aj]

PS That old colorchange of ours mentioned in your previous post was actually validated with particular substances mentioned on the very first EZ Test colorsheet.
http://eztest.com/index.php?id=eztest&topic=faq#faq9
The reason it was withdrawn is because we tested under ideal circumstances. Later (after being criticised by harm reduction organisations in The Netherlands) we realised that testing with a testkit hardly happens under ideal circumstances ;-)
Another reason is that pills may contain mixtures of MDXX. If so, the old chart may be misleading.
(Note that if you have an opportunity to test pure substances under ideal circumstances, the chart should apply)
We also validated EZ Supreme with pure samples obtained from a laboratory. I only notice this now on the Dancesafe site, the colorchart indicates that MDA goes lightgreen with Simon's ?????
I think that DEA paper says something similar.
We have experienced that MDA does not change color with Simon's.
That is interesting ?
Who is making a mistake here ?
The DEA paper is mentioning MDA HCI.
I really do not know what HCI means ?
Maybe the DEA made a mistake (Not unlikely if you ask me). That paper dates from 1978 !!!
Also, I think it is already discussed here and concluded that MDA does not change color when eztested with Supreme.
Anyone ?
aj
[This message has been edited by aj (edited 19 August 2001).]
[This message has been edited by aj (edited 19 August 2001).]

 

[johnboy]

i think maybe they mean that their Simon's reagent is light green in colour to begin with and doesnt change colour with an MDA reaction.
can't really say till we see one of their kits, but the EZ Test Supremes sure as hell aren't light green.

 

[aj]

Yes, I later noticed that. Apparently the Phase 1 of their Simon's reagent is lightgreen ?
Ours is sort of reddish.
aj

 

[604]

Not to speak for ANYONE, but I feel that this site's biased is not allowing for perspective:
1) Re:

The claim that has been made by "EZ-test," the for-profit company in Holland, that this is possible is not true.

EZ Test *did* make this claim. Withdrawn or not, it still allowed for the rumor to fly... and regardless of any disclaimer, there is still a need to clear it up. The comment, I doubt, was meant to be bitchy. This is not a competition... this is saving people from what they would like to hear.
In otherwords, BigTrancer, it was taken out of context.
2)

To make things more marketable... they simply put DXM and Ecstasy like substances in one color....

-AJ
Marketable? That's a gross assumption. Regardless, in America, DXM is by far one of the most prevelant adulterants. A big problem has come from inexperienced testers confusing the dxm reaction with an ecstasy like reaction (or rather, creative interpreting). The new reagents seem to clear it up quite well don't you think?
3)

DXM will NEVER show purple.

OK, but ecstasy-like doesn't always show purple either. As an experienced tester, you know that. In addition, some gelcaps containing ecstasy like, produce a small puff of smoke. The backup tests (as they are marketed... NOT to be used alone, or in place of ANYTHING) would help to elliminate the confusion for those NOT EXPERIENCED (i.e. those in NEED of this test)
4)

Well, there are many more things to report about their 'new' testkits' and they way they provide information.

Like?
5)

I wonder how DanceSafe validated their new (Mecke) test.

Why don't you ask?
ANYWAY. I find your hostility revolting. Why don't you try putting that energy towards a drug policy foundation or something? Harm Reduction is only a competition against HARM. Perhaps it's *your* aspirations of profit that need to be examined. How this advancement could come as a shock in the FIRST place is beyond me... MY perception is that EZTest must have felt just dandy with the Marquis (and their monopoly of domain names, to be so personal), and (obviously) decided that no advancements were needed (even though new substances are showing up as adulterants).
Bitchy? Try www.dancesafe.com I find THAT bitchy.
To be continued indeed.
[This message has been edited by 604 (edited 21 August 2001).]

 

[johnboy]

Not to speak for ANYONE, but I feel that this site's biased is not allowing for perspective

um well what is it you are doing now?

 

[aj]

Well, well, well.
As if it makes sense to put that little comment on their site. That's the only thing that bugs me a LOT. That's why I got angry !
That old colorchart is being attacked by DS again and again (among many other things). Why ? It was withdrawn early 1998. The new chart (just like our site, 3 years already) EMPHASIZES that EZ Test can ONLY detect ECSTASY and NON-ECSTASY LIKE SUBSTANCES.
Purple in a few secs -> There is at least some Ecstasy like substance.
Any other colorchange -> There is no Ecstasy like substance in the pill.
So what is the use of putting that comment on their site ? That's just a big provocation, so I provoked back. Now that we got your attention, I hope it can be removed. I already updated my part...
QUOTE
(Note: No reagent currently exists that can distinguish MDMA from MDE.
The claim that has been made by "EZ-test," the for-profit company in Holland, that this is possible is not true. Their kits simply contain Marquis reagent, nothing more).
QUOTE
And look close, it is not even correct. http://eztest.com/index.php?id=eztest&topic=faq#faq9
The first version of EZ Test (released Oct. '97) came with a different version of colorchart. It distinguished between mdma, mdea, mbdb and mda. which was later changed to 'Ecstasylike substances'. (the reagent itself never changed !). The differences between the reactions are too small to be 100% sure your pill contains one of these substances in pure form. EZ Test only indicates what kind of substance is present in a pill or capsule.
MDE is not even mentioned (as it is, at least at that time, very rare).
Whatever, that comment just did it for me. If I overreacted, sorry.
aj
[This message has been edited by aj (edited 22 August 2001).]

 

[604]

um well what is it you are doing now?

Providing perspective John Boy, nothing more. Given, that is my opinion… but I was careful to note that I was NOT SPEAKING FOR ANYONE (i.e. Dancesafe, Tim, Emanuel, George W. Bush, or anyone else).

As if it makes sense to put that little comment on their site.

As if ANYTHING makes sense amongst all this drama, AJ? I, for one, am SICK of the bitterness… on all sides. That “little comment?” The one similar to the EZ Test paragraph (i.e. Hey, this was said, and it is wrong…)? AGAIN, I don’t think it was meant as a jab, it was meant to clarify (the RESPONSIBLE thing to do, as EZ Test has acknowledged). You keep pointing out that this was “years ago”, but for some reason EZ Test is still informing people of the mistake… WHY is it taken as an “attack” when Dancesafe does the same? I suppose I just don’t empathize with, or understand the 5-year-old mentality. I can think of about 20 people right now, that I’d like to set up in the corner so they can make nice.
REGARDLESS: if you are upset, WHY DON’T YOU CONTACT SOMEONE? I am under the impression that you have yet to do so, which leads me to think… you don’t really care, you just wanted to raise a stink on a message board. If this is so, I am really disappointed. ESPECIALLY considering the irony of it. If you haven’t checked out
www.dancesafe.com
do so. THAT seems like a jab to me, but I still have some peace of mind. WHY? Because PEOPLE WILL STILL BE GETTING INFORMATION. THAT is MY #1 concern. My affiliations are irrelevant when it comes to what is best for people. I wish more felt the same.
I think this conversation is over. I suggest, that if you wish to discuss the new kits, or Dancesafe’s wording, you do so in private with either Emanuel or Tim. Let’s try and be professional. Or not… but I, for one, trust companies & organizations that don’t have a history of public dick-ness.
ciao.
[This message has been edited by 604 (edited 22 August 2001).]

 

[aj]

"WHY DON’T YOU CONTACT SOMEONE"
We did, many times. To no avail.
I have a feeling you do not know what you are talking about and are not aware of all the facts. You also seem to 'hide' behind a number ?
But you are right, as you said; "I think this conversation is over". It is. The discussion was taking place at the DS board but they removed ALL the relevant posts, just when things started to get interesting.
Wonder why that was...
aj

 

[johnboy]

604: so is our site still biased, for not allowing you your perspective? (your original words) um well all your comments are still here... shame all ours have been removed from the dancesafe board, even mine, which had nothing to do with bitching about domain names, just the information on PMA i supplied, hoping to help people...
i was staying out of this, but it's hard to do so now that i know that DANCESAFE PRACTICES CENSORSHIP.

 

[604]

1) Eman is out of state, try Tim. By EMAIL. I think it just keeps boiling down to the lack of professionalism on all sides (i.e. childish competition, cheap shots, ect.) Discussing private business matters on public message boards is stupid and poor for image. Not to say that the discussion should be removed (which they weren't, see below), they just should not be happening in the first place. What is the best way to ruin a business (or movement, in this case)? Think about it. It is not all about YOU.
2) I know "the facts," I just don't find them as relevant, as you do, in the long run.
John Boy:
1)

Not to speak for ANYONE, but I feel that this site's biased is not allowing for perspective:

Those were my exact words. Perspective in general, not just mine (obviously).
2) Your questions have been answered.
http://www.dancesafe.org/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000050.html
http://www.dancesafe.org/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000008.html
-end-

 

[aj]

"I know the facts,"
You don't, otherwise this would never have happened.
aj

 

[johnboy]

604: i dont care who's perspective you are giving here, you are welcome to do it. as you've always been.
i just object to you saying this site is biased. what proof do you have of that?
i'd try and analyse your exact words but they dont make sense, gramatically...

[This message has been edited by johnboy (edited 24 August 2001).]

 

[ianDS]

jonnboy: We're not practicing censorship.
Apparently, we've run into some sort of bug in UBB. According to Bryan, the e-board administrator, threads randomly disappearing is a fairly common problem in version 5.x. We're losing them from every forum. It seems to be some of the more active ones, unfortunately. It might seem hard to believe, but those posts did randomly disappear. We didn't delete them, and in fact, we've spent quite a few hours over the last two days trying to recover them along with the other missing posts.
I'll see if I can get Bryan to join in here, since I know I'm probably somewhat hard to believe. Maybe he can post a link or something.
I've got plans to upgrade us to 6.x in about two weeks.
-Ian

 

[BryanDS]

Hey all,
Yeah its been a Pain in the A$$ figuring out where the hell some of our posts have been going. I tried my hardest to stay out of the whole Domain battle, because I try to remain nuetral on all public fronts, just because I really dont need any more drama in my life.
Some of your posts in which your messages between emanuel, johnboy, aj, and a few others have been archived. I did it because basically they had nothing to do with keeping people safe.. and ultimately that is what the eboard is for. (they are in the "Pill Testing Archive")
I have a daily battle trying to keep this board "on" topic.. As bluelight is a completely open harm reduction forum, they have certain freedoms we dont enjoy. For the most part they have stayed out of the media spotlight, and enjoy a certain anonymity (sp) when it comes to the public.
DanceSafe on the other hand, is directly in the public eye, and consequently, has to act that way. Not only do we have to worry about more liability issues when it comes to what people (or we) post on our site, but we have a responsibility to at least try and keep the board at a certain publicly conscious level.(this is obviously a continuing process)Bluelight does this very well, but has more freedom then we do. Which is why we try to link people to Bluelight for questions and discussions (non social) that would be risky for us to have on our board, but which are common fare on the Bluelight board.
But other than that I have a very strong "anti-censhorship" viewpoint, which is why I archived the conversations (still viewable to the public) instead of erasing them. The ones that have been dissapearing have not been erased at all, not by me, or my moderators. They have just simply dissapeared.. *shrug* Im *really* hoping UBB 6.x will fix this problem, as there havent been any reports showing that it is a problem..
So, in closing, like most of you, I only got into Harm Reduction to keep people safe. And that is all im *still* in it for. Yes, I have my opinions, and sometimes I will voice them, but ultimately I will always err, and act, on the side of safety and Harm Reduction.
So, ultimately I would hope that AJ or EZtest contact Emanuel or Emanuel contact Eztest. Either way as far as Im concerned the whole subject is out of my hands, as long as it doesnt show up on my E-Board again.
Hope you all are doing well,
Bryan
bryan (lil "a" thingie) dancesafe.org
[This message has been edited by BryanDS (edited 25 August 2001).]