Opioids CWE mess up. Insight on APAP poisoning.

[Enoch]

Cold Water Extraction mess up. Insight on APAP poisoning, any help appreciated!

Ok here is the scoop. I'm pretty much a 95% natural homeopathic kind of guy, don't trust the pharm industry, even avoid over the counter drugs. Throughout my life I have always just sucked it up & took the pain, but this time I REALLY did a number on my leg and it hert too badly to avoid the ER. (whole thing was black & blue, swollen up, and I couldn't put any weight on it at all, or walk. knee was jacked etc etc) My doctor gave me a RX for 5/500 Vicodin. My buddy told me to take 4 for the first initial days of pain since they were the weak ones (every 4 hours), then go down to 3 then 2, eventually one to ween off to none eventually. So in waking state, 3 times a day. I thought in my head NO WAY am I eating 6000mg of liver damaging acetaminophen a day!!! lol Even eating 2, three times a day is 3000mg tylenol which I was just not going to do.

So, he mentioned cold water extraction. I researched it, it seemed legit & a great way to save my liver, I mean it was the only way this stuff would go down my throat in such high volume, and I just wanted to get through these first three or four days. So anyways, he said he has done it a million times & to let him do it. A few hours later he brought me a decent size glass of some pretty cloudy liquid & said to drink it. (it wasn't till later that I seen the cloudiness is APAP still left over that made it through.)

15-20 mins after drinking it it hit, and I felt like shit! terrible headache w/ light headiness, nausea, dizziness, stomach twisted etc. I felt a high feeling some what but the "feel like shit" feeling trumped it, eventually the high was totally gone and I just felt downright "poisoned". I kept it down trying not to vomit thinking it was going to pass & its purpose would still be served. Wrong, shortly later I started having trouble breathing (shallow breaths, very slow) seemed like my pupils were really small in the mirror, headache kept getting worse, nausea still present, just felt like I just got my ass kicked. I avoided vomiting and eventually fell asleep foolishly thinking I would feel better the following morning.

The next day I was like, how much did you use?! He said since its CWE & all the APAP is gone he used 8, which came out to 40mg hydrocodone to get me through the first night. I was like 8?!! and after I seen that it wasn't supposed to be that cloudy it seemed as if he didn't get too much of the APAP out. I still felt like shit, and the really scary part it today is the third day & I woke up today feeling worse than the prior two & I haven't taken any more since drinking the liquid. Overall all cracked out feeling / totally fatigued, headache, nausea, heart palpitations, overall abdominal weirdness, literal pain when I talk too loud (kidney areas, front area all around).. and shortness of breath when talking too much.

Figured since it was so cloudy (couldnt see through it "at all", your hand on the other side holding it was barely visible.) most of the APAP was probably still present. He showed me the stuff the filter got out wasn't much, and he only used "one" coffee filter, and said he squeezed it a few times to speed up the filtering process but not too much. I read online your supposed to use two coffee filters, and not squeeze it during filtering, and get it as CLEAR as possible, because the cloudiness is APAP present from poor filtering. This stuff was not visible from one side to the other level cloudiness.

So, before the CWE, at 8 5/500s I was looking at 40mg hydrocodone / 4000mg APAP. I'm thinking he probably got out about 1000mg of the APAP after researching and seeing how shitty of a job he did in comparison. So lets say 2500-3000mg of APAP at "once".

I still feel like shit RIGHT NOW, cracked out / overall fatigued throughout my entire body. Today is Wednesday evening, I took the potion Monday evening. I am 6'4, 175lbs, 25 years old. I pretty much have no tolerance to hydrocodone because I hardly ever take it, or any opoids, and I NEVER take tylenol.

Can someone please offer me some insight, correct me, give me any advise?

Think some serious damage was done here? Reversible? Am I'm just being over paranoid? Maybe the 40mg of hydrocodone is adding to the cracked out feeling & not just the 3000mg APAP since I have almost no tolerance? Is 3000mg APAP at once enough to really fuck you up? I mean don't get me wrong I have taken Vicodin, Lortab even Oxycotin etc further in the past & know the euphoria feeling from them, this was nothing of that sort, nightmarish.

I mean you would think I would have got high as a kite off the 40mg hydro with almost no tolerance, instead I felt more poisoned the whole time. I drank a Urban Detox drink yesterday (which contains the apap antidote NAC) and one today. Flushed with a lot of water, continued my daily vitamins etc..

Any insight to why I 'still" feel like this two days later / overall opinion.

thanks in advance!

 

[the better green]

Im pretty sure the 40mg of hydro added to the shitty feeling. I have a little opiate tolerance, and 40 mg's of hydro would have me feeling good. For someone like yourself, with no tolerance, that is more than enough hydro to make you puke, and just feel plain sick.

As for the tylenol, even though ~3 grams is in no way healthy at all, and def. added to the sick feeling, you should be ok.

Have you been eating normally throughout this whole ordeal?

 

[Jabberwocky]

please don't post in such large text, it's obnoxious and deters people from reading your thread.

 

[Chainer]

from what i gather, you just didn't like the effects of vicodin. Some people do not. Sounds like you are the kind of person who wants to avoid this anyway.

Short term use of those 5s isn't going to cause damage. 3000mg APAP isn't near danger zone. Try eating 1 5/500 or 2 5/500s, gauge nausea and other side effects. Report back to your doctor, you'll likely get downgraded to a syth opiate like Tramadol, which will probably still cause nausea and not do much for your pain.

Smoking weed always helped with the side effects when I first was scripted vicodin for pain. I had the same side effects, but took antihistamines and smoked herb. Do not need either, now. DXM also helps in small doses, but only because it acts as a potentate.

 

[Enoch]

Im pretty sure the 40mg of hydro added to the shitty feeling. I have a little opiate tolerance, and 40 mg's of hydro would have me feeling good. For someone like yourself, with no tolerance, that is more than enough hydro to make you puke, and just feel plain sick.

As for the tylenol, even though ~3 grams is in no way healthy at all, and def. added to the sick feeling, you should be ok.

Have you been eating normally throughout this whole ordeal?

well the thing is I have used opiods in the past, just haven't used anything in a very long time, like I mentioned been kind of on a health / natural kick. A few years back I insufflated/snorted 40mg of oxycodone (1/2 green oxycotin), got extremely high thus dizzy which led to nausea & eventually vomiting. Even when sick I still strangely felt good / high. So I know the feeling from the opiod side, this was not that "at all". I felt a little bit of a opiod high for a moment in the beginning, but this was trumped very quickly by an absolute shitty headachy, shallow breathing/short of breath, poisoned sick feeling which lasted the duration, only getting worse.

Almost certain this was caused by the large amount of APAP still present from the 8 Vicodins & not the so much hydro. Like I mentioned, I've taken Vicodins 2 or three here & there in the past, Lortab extended (nose surgery) also Norco, Oxys etc.. I know the normal euphoria feeling, even the normal nausea - this was nothing of the sort. I'm just wondering how much APAP from the 8 Vics do you guys think made it through? He only used one coffee filter, rushed it through, the liquid was so cloudy you couldn't see your hand holding the glass barely from the other side. There was only about a 25c/quarter size (if that even) very shallow circle of white stuff left in the filter after filtering 8 whole Vicodins. Think that would be like 3500 of the 4000mg still present, 3000, 2500, 2000 etc?

As far as the eating question, the day after didn't eat until the evening, today ate twice although not easy (nausea is still present) but kept it down, with vitamins. I've been dehydrated since, drinking a lot & urinating frequently.

Anyways to wrap up, I'm confident I'm not going to die or anything & am / have been recovering. My main concern is do you guys think I have caused permanent or even temporary damage here, or has my liver / system able to process & expell this? Are the symptoms I have / am experiencing normal or do they point towards some type of damage? Should I expect them to pass in a day or two?

thanks in advance.

please don't post in such large text, it's obnoxious and deters people from reading your thread.

my apologies. first timeposter here, just figured it would help since it was a longer read. my bad, noted for future.

 

[RedRum OG]

I mean you would think I would have got high as a kite off the 40mg hydro with almost no tolerance, instead I felt more poisoned the whole time.

dude... no. thats not how it works. 40mg is way way too fucking much hydro for someone with no tolerance. even a somewhat big guy. thats why you felt so fucked up8). the tylenol didnt help but i dont think that was the main problem you felt like shit. you cant get just super duper high off opiates... its called OD dude... thats what you did.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^tylenol and the hydrocodone do actually have synergistic effects; they're both pain killers. you just can't go taking much tylenol obviously because of it's toxicity and it's not recreational in the least.

my apologies. first timeposter here, just figured it would help since it was a longer read. my bad, noted for future

no worries

it's also unlikely you've done any damage from the apap, though you can get tests done to set your mind at ease if need be. get your enzyme levels checked out.

i think the sickness is more related to taking too much hydrocodone with not much of a tolerance at all. maybe aim for a smaller dose next time,

 

[Enoch]

3000mg APAP isn't near danger zone.

Hi there, thanks first off thanks for the reply. Ok, your post poped up while I was finishing replying to the last one, and I now see I touched on most of the things I would have mentioned in response to your post. So just give that a quick read and let me know what you think.

I'll just touch further on what I quoted. Isn't 4000mg of APAP the stated max before damage in a "24 hour" spread out period.

Would it be possible for damage to be caused by 4000mg taken all "at once" (8 Vicodin 5/500's.) or in my case gauging a little bit of the APAP expelled, say hypothetically 3000-3500mg of APAP all to the liver at once, not spread out at all.

I've read the cut off point is 1000mg at once. and 4000mg in 24 hours.

Anyways, I'm probably just being paranoid. Its just that I think its kind of scary that I reacted the way I did to what I did, I've done much more than the potency of the 40mg hydrocodone present in 8 5/500s at once in the past & never suffered the type of problems I did / am from this cocktail. Just want to feel reassured others have felt this way from too much APAP at once and been fine a few days down the line.. or that studies show this much ingestion of APAP at once only caused temporary discomfort and no permanent damage.

 

[Enoch]

dude... no. thats not how it works. 40mg is way way too fucking much hydro for someone with no tolerance. even a somewhat big guy. thats why you felt so fucked up8). the tylenol didnt help but i dont think that was the main problem you felt like shit. you cant get just super duper high off opiates... its called OD dude... thats what you did.

I don't know man, like I mentioned I've done 40mg of oxycodone at once before, it was definitely way too much. I got really high really fast (extreme euphoria, stimulation etc) which led to over stimulation / dizzyness, then vomiting etc. But I felt, "high" the whole time, even throughout the sickness. I was sick from being "too high".

There wasn't much stimulation in this. I seriously think the amount of APAP trumped it quite quickly & its negative effects set in for the rest of the time. I mean, my post time I am experiencing now feels completely different than any recovery from any opiod experience I have ever had in the past as well. I somewhat knew the dangers of acetaminophen toxicity thus the reason I was upset about considering taking Vicodin this time around intially. I honestly believe if the CWE was done properly I wouldn't be sitting here, two days later, still suffering typing this thread. Also if he didn't use "8 Vicodins" (I definitely didn't advocate that!) & rush it into a cloudy APAP rich kidney shot! lol

Anyways, I wouldn't be looking into all this if this wasn't so weird, I've never been hit with this much APAP at once before, and never felt this way before. I am sure the hydrocodone took its toll, but under the circumstances the APAP seems to be big possibility as real culprit imo. Maybe I'm wrong I'm no expert, just want to hear everyone's opinion, and feel assured I haven't caused in serious damage here is all. All I know, is in my experiences this is an odd ball, and my bodies red flags have gone up. Big deal to most or not, I rarely consume these substances & I feel like I have some other type of problem here than what I have experienced from "opiods" in the past, and just want some opinions from different viewpoints is all.

On a general note, thanks for the responses thus far!

Turning in for the night, I'll report how I feel in the morning.

 

[Chainer]

Anyways, I'm probably just being paranoid.

Judging from the way you've been posting such large responses, I'd say yes

Yes APAP is very bad at over 4,000mg all at once, but I personally have taken that much (as I'm sure quiet a few people here have on numerous occasions) and the only side effect was regret and a miserable night. If you are really concerned, see your doctor, what more can we tell ya? Everything you are describing points to way to much hydrocodone taken for you.

 

[Jabberwocky]

here's a copy/paste of mine to ease your mind on apap abuse

it's mostly true that extended use of apap at recommended doses isnt going to cause any long term problems. but a problem thats been associated with it is increased ALT, a liver enzyme, which is reversable after short term.

Even though Tylenol most likely does not cause serious liver damage in recommended doses, it can cause elevations of liver enzymes in the blood suggesting injury to the liver. In a study of 145 healthy subjects who were randomized to receive placebo or 4 grams of Tylenol daily for two weeks, subjects in the placebo group experienced no elevations of ALT, a liver enzyme, but 33%-44% of the subjects in the Tylenol group had ALT elevations greater than three times the upper limits of normal. The highest ALT elevation was greater than 500 which is approximately 10 times the upper limit of normal. All enzyme elevations returned to normal after stopping Tylenol. Thus, recommended doses of Tylenol given to healthy subjects for two weeks can cause mild to moderate reversible liver injury

 

[triiper]

lmfao "my pupils seemed really small" is what did it for me, bud look up the effects of opiates, you're just a lightweight w/ no tolerance and thats what happens, plus it was already dissolved in liquid so it hit u even faster, cwe's will usually be a little cloudy you are not tylenol poisoned, funny guy

 

[hexxx]

Couple of things:

1) True APAP poisoning only usually manifests after 24 hours, you felt like shit before the 24h were up which gives credence to the theory that it's the Hydrocodone that messed you up. The dose at which it starts overwhelming the liver is 100mg/kg = 8000mg in your case.

2) You've taken oxycodone before but that is a different drug completely and you might just be sensitive to hydrocodone. Oxycodone is active and strictly speaking doesn't need to be metabolized (although some of it converts to Oxymorphone) while hydrocodone is mostly a prodrug and needs to be converted to active metabolites to work effectively (AFAIK).

3) 40mg of hydro is way too much for someone with no tolerance, no wonder you felt like shit.

4) Opiate hangovers do happen, especially with no tolerance. I've even got hangovers from codeine before for a few days and I have a huge tolerance.

You're just paranoid, don't do it again. Get some NAC if you're really worried, it prevents APAP poisoning. Will put your mind at ease.

 

[Provoke]

<----Chemist

If he brought you a decent sized glass, he's a fucking idiot. Icy cold water can contain 0.8g/100mL...I suppose that glass was like 300mL or more...

Cold water extraction is done in 10mL of water!!!!!!! Ten mililiters!!! That's a small vial! The more water you add, the more disolved tylenol you ingest.

If that was 400mL glass of water, it was 40 times more water than normal!!!That's 40 times more Tylenol per dose! Be careful!!!!!!

 

[Provoke]

<----Chemist

If he brought you a decent sized glass, he's a fucking idiot. Icy cold water can contain 0.8g/100mL...I suppose that glass was like 300mL or more...

Cold water extraction is done in 10mL of water!!!!!!! Ten mililiters!!! That's a small vial! The more water you add, the more disolved tylenol you ingest.

If that was 400mL glass of water, it was 40 times more water than normal!!!That's 40 times more Tylenol per dose! Be careful!!!!!!

 

[Provoke]

Read:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=8611252&postcount=33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol

It's weird but it seems you guys are having trouble with this. Do you want me to post a CWE guide as a stickie? Lmk mods, ty.

 

[hexxx]

There's already a CWE megathread but perhaps you could clear up the question of codeine's solubility increasing at lower temperatures? Someone was referring to the phenomena as exothermic dissolution, if that makes sense? The only reliable place I found quoting codeine's solubility showed it increased with temp. It was the freebase and not a salt, dunno if it makes a difference.

 

[happygoluckygal]

Even if your friend didn't do the CWE perfectly, Im sure he knows what to do since you said he does it regularly. The fluid is GOING to be cloudy.

Bottom line is you dont really KNOW that the CWE didnt work! It could have worked just fine. 99.999% of the details are pointing to the hydro as the culprit.

Time to stop freaking out.

 

[RedRum OG]

^word.

and that time before you said you did a lot of hydro you had a tolerance. this time you did not. easy on the overdosing

 

[Enoch]

<----Chemist

If he brought you a decent sized glass, he's a fucking idiot. Icy cold water can contain 0.8g/100mL...I suppose that glass was like 300mL or more...

Cold water extraction is done in 10mL of water!!!!!!! Ten mililiters!!! That's a small vial! The more water you add, the more disolved tylenol you ingest.

If that was 400mL glass of water, it was 40 times more water than normal!!!That's 40 times more Tylenol per dose! Be careful!!!!!!

Looked up solubility and your right! Obviously he was lying about knowing the logistics on CWE!! lol It was a very wide glass, but about half height.

About this size but wider, so a tad bit more:

So if it were say 400ml at 0.8g/100ml APAP solubility cold water, I was looking at around 3200mg (3.2g) of the APAP from the 8 Vics made dissolved into the liquid (400ml). Also the fact he mentioned he was sqeezing the filter to speed it up it explains why the cloudiness contained floating residue as well, probably undissolved elements too adding a bit more on top.

Only a little bit was left over in the filter, this explains why, WAY TOO MUCH WATER, THUS WAY TOO MUCH APAP.


Anyways, think it is safe to say the hydro high was ruined 1. too much hydro + 2. too much APAP, and the combination has brought me to feel the way I felt / feel. I mean, I've done large amounts of hydro & oxy before when at the point of no tolerance (for example the 40mg oxy, haven't done anything for years before that) didn't get any problems like this. Definitely think the too much hydro took a toll on this too, but also that the 3500 some mg APAP helped make it shitty & is a probably a prominent factor in why I feel the way I feel now 4 days later.

But none the less, I feel a million times better knowing that no irreversible damage was done & I'll fully recover, & want to thank everyone for their comments!

Feel a little bit better today, still fatigued and feel weird, ab/kidney areas etc. Still kinda cracked out too.

Thinks its safe to say, I was hit up from improper CWE. But even wikipedia says this, for people that "did" get poisoning, which obviously I was NOWHERE near: "Patients that do not die are expected to fully recover and have a normal life expectancy and quality of life".

All I was concerned about is that I didn't cause liver damage, I'm kind of obsessive compulsive character as you can all see..lol If I have a problem sometimes I will placebo myself into thinking I caused some type of damage even if it passes, thus the reason I have been looking into this.

But anyways, ok.. CWE at small liquid levels depending on the amount your extracting, generally at around 10/ml water. I understand the score now. Don't trust your dumbass friends, research and take care of shit yourself!

thanks all!