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Creationism vs Evolution

Shit... I'm only 6 minutes in and already thinking, "I better get my book written FAST!" Bastard's stealing my thunder I think. I mean maybe not - he's only just started, but "All these rules have been broken" is pretty much chapter 2... grrr...

18 minutes and I'm thinking I might be safe - he's a biologist so I think I still have something to add. His graphic about genes <> networks <> phenotypes also opens my door (so to speak)

I'm betting Dawkins ain't happy. :D The knockout punch to the Selfish gene is bad enough, but the putdown about metaphor means OWNED Dawkins!!! :D

He replaces the Tree of Evolution with a network - my image was a tundra of bushes or shrubs... But similar in concept. I said "29.000.000 genes suggests the model is really a paddock of bushes, not a tree" but I think Noble sees more communication happening than I do... more physical communication at least... :D

A buffering network makes a hell of a lot more sense than what is proposed today

I had an evolution thread when I first came here, but I admitt I started it out on wrong foot.
Sometimes you have to shock people to wake them up. In school we are basically taught to remember answers and repeat. This isnt entirely bad, but a side effect can be restricted intuition.
Its ironic Dr. Noble is a pioneer in heart research.
He pioneered the first mathematical model of the heart.
We are now finding out to our astonishment the heart has a "brain" of its on and really controls the mind. Emotions may have more power than we can even imagine.
The Egyptians were on to this long ago.
They preserved the heart and tossed the brain.
Consciousness doesnt live in the brain.
You cant point to it and say here it is or there it is,
but if im sure of anything it exist!!
Keep on following the evidence. There is a code in all of us. We have information that we can "turn on"
when we are in the right "frequency". That "junk" DNA scientist now are doing a 180 on isnt junk.
It's gifts you can recieve if you"re in tune to get them.
If you stay in the box of only believing what you can see, you may be missing out.
Why just use your left side of the brain when you have a right too.
Ps.
Yeah Dawkins got his azz owned by Dr. Noble.
If I was Dawkins I would now call Dr. Noble daddy.
 
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As for the personal stuff, it began with things like 'delusional' smarmy, fool and wanky troll. My comments stand.

It was a question.

Remember your post in which that post was replying to? Let me remind you -

Epigenetics turns out to have a lot to do with passing along characteristics, but try not putting words in my mouth - YOU are the believer in Evolution so trying to make out I am saying epigenetics replaces it somehow is just a red herring. You're making shit up to make out you know things you don't.

Maybe I'm just a being sensitive but this part of your post, to me, looks like you having a little dig at me.. no?

So.. Ignorant moron willy head boner stop reading davidickeforums smelly face. My comments still stand.

Your misunderstanding of epigenetics and even Lamarck is shown by the 'I can't practice...' post. Lamarck's theory was of evolution by acquired characteristics and he is less ridiculous if his original words are read instead of those written by people ridiculing him. Nor does epigenetics work by 'practicing' so that highlights either a preference to use misguided argument tactics or a lack of knowledge about what epigenetics actually is.

I understand epigenetics just fine. I didn't mean it literally.. I meant, for example, that if i exercised then parts of my DNA would turn on / off, possibly controlling metabolism and muscle growth, my offspring would likely inherit those genes in an on / off state.. I was listing genetic mutations that we KNOW happen / have happened that epigenetics is incapable of doing.

It is you that is misunderstanding evolution if you think epigenetics has much, if anything, to do with it..

A difference in expression of genes is not different genes.

The invention of inflation was distinctly a 'tweak the universe' thing. Big Bang theory has not changed since they came up with it, but the models failed to reproduce the universe we see. So they decided the universe had to undergo Inflation so the Big Bang theory would survive. Then galaxies didn't work right so they invented Dark matter. Then the RS showed some strange results so they invented Dark Energy. That's not how Science is supposed to work. If the evidence disagrees you are not meant to invent new forces so your theory is kept alive.

No it wasn't tweaking the universe it was tweaking the theory. The big bang theory was tweaked as to account for new information. This is exactly how science works. Are you honestly suggesting that as soon as there's an error in the model the whole thing should be scrapped? Do you know how far weather forecasts would have come if we did that? It's CONSTANTLY being tweaked as we learn more.

Ah you mean like we should have thrown out everything we know about particles when quantum theory arrived? We should never have correctly predicted the Higgs Boson, the neutrino, etc etc.. Einstein should have shoved his black hole up his black hole.. because predictions based on the knowledge we have has no place in science? What about when scientists hypothesized that 2 chromosomes in humans must have been fused together, because we have 23 pairs while our ape friends have 24? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

Come on.

The only evidence for Inflation is that they need it for Big Bang models to make a universe that looks like the one we see. The evidence for Dark Matter is their models didn't give them galaxies like we see and also they needed something to fill in the lack of mass their model gives them. The evidence for Dark Energy is RS.

At no point did they go back and say, 'hm... the real world says no, so maybe we need a new theory. If we discard the Big Bang then maybe we can find a theory that has the current universe fall out of it as a natural thing, rather than using magic so we don't have to alter our model. And there ARE other ideas out there. General Systems theory proposes a steady state universe and even has practical mechanisms we can see to describe how matter and energy happen.

No. There is more to it than that. Like the microwave background, the amounts of each element and the fact that the further away we look, the older the universe is that we're seeing.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alternative_cosmology

There are loads of other theories of the origins of the universe - It's just, well - The big bang theory has more evidence to back it up.. Nobody is saying that's exactly how it happened, but for now - the evidence suggests that's how it happened.

And no you didn't give me any evidence that RS is not velocity (not entirely sure what you mean by this.. RS is caused by the doppler effect)

EU theory makes use of the vast energies involved in electrical and magnetic energies and has predictions that are proving out. One such was the detection of 'rogue' planets - a big surprise for conventional cosmology but predicted in EU.

Are you talking about this? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe

lol

In fact the recent history of Cosmology can perhaps be best described as a constant stream of surprises - which in Science, suggests your theory is wrong. Successful theory should predict at least most of the things you later find. Instead there's been any number of times they've had to try to work out ways to get observations to fit into their theory.

Well yeah.. if you ignore the vast amount of predictions that were spot on.

How were rogue planets a surprise for the big bangers? Of course rogue planets and even rogue stars will exist.. Star dies, planet gets knocked out of orbit, etc etc.. What are you talking about? You really do get all of your information from "alternative" sources. What's your davidickeforums username?

Evolution is, according to consensus, random, and it has to be or the door is wide open for ID and Creationism. What ISN'T random is survival which is a separate process to the one making changes. It may be splitting hairs but Evolution's results are not the same thing as the Evolution events. A failed mutation is still Evolution in action. Only once the organism breeds is there 'survival of the fittest' occurring.

Errmmm no.. not quite. You can't just make up your own definitions of words because it better suits your views.

The steady tick of mutation is also problematic as there are periods where fossils tell us there has been an explosion of forms. ELE aftermaths led to the idea of Punctuated Evolution to try to explain exactly this. And mutations can't 'build up' waiting for environment to change; they are either beneficial right now and improve survival chances or they get lost in the mix. And if they are beneficial NOW for the organism, then they are highly unlikely to open new opportuniy for the organism when an ELE drastically changes the environment.

What?
 
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Ahh... Finally, now all of your posts and threads make sense. I get it now. Oxys too? What other drugs am I talking to when you post? ;)

You realize lack of sleep combined with drugs causes delirium right? You know drugs skew your perception correct?

Actually I should have know better. This is, of course, a drug forum at its core. Silly me.

What is this supposed to mean?
 
@rickolasnice - a dig is not the same thing as name calling. Think of it this way - 2 guys having a discussion in a pub. One says, "you're just making shit up so you can pretend you know what you're talking about" - chances are pretty good the convo will keep on going, perhaps with a little more heat for a bit. Now picture one of them saying "you're a delusional wanker" and the chances are pretty good the convo stops right there as fist meets face.

The grandmother research clearly shows how much effect environment has on development via epigenetic tools. If we talk evidence, then epigenetics has far more in the short time the idea has been around than there is for Evolution under even neo-Darwinism.

As for RS, it isn't doppler effect although it looks a bit like it. In the SMC it is seen as an effect of Dark Energy and finding even one pair of objects showing a direct physical connection between a high RS and a low RS is enough to blow apart Dark Energy as a theory. Halton Arp found quite a few of them.

And if RS is NOT DE, the Big Bang is in a big hole because it means everything is NOT moving away from everything else and the universe is radically different to the standard model. As for Einstein, there are a number of things that belie Relativity in both special and general forms, but they have been suppressed. An active ether is one such - the evidence was not missing, it was suppressed because vested interests had a different idea. Maxwell's theorems - the original lot, not the messed about ones - also belie Relativity as an accurate model of how things are.
 
Ah... but read further willow - Michelson and Morley didn't actually fail. It is interesting the way so many were eager to jump in and proclaim the active aether obviously didn't exist because Michelson and Morley actually DID get their fringe shifts - it's just they weren't at the predicted level. Rather than look for a reason and perhaps do what they said needed doing and repeat the experiment at regular intervals to account for orbit around the Sun, they reported a null result and Physics went a different direction.

But others did the experiment as well.
And the most extraordinary of these is the series of experiments carried out over a 30 year period by Dayton Miller, from 1906 to the mid 1930s, using far more sensitive apparatus than the one used by Michelson and Morley, and which clearly and consistently showed an ether drift effect.

His measurements taken in the years 1925 & 1926 atop Mt. Wilson in California were particularly significant, and again detected the anisotropy of the speed of light ---the signature of aether and absolute motion. "Had Michelson and Morley been as astute as their younger colleague [Dayton] Miller, and had been more careful in reporting their non-null data, the history of physics over the last 100 years would have been totally different.
But Miller was too late in the game - the establishment was well into 'modern' cosmology by then and his results conflict with Relativity.

Cosmology as such is a failed science - without a cause for gravity they are pretty much fumbling around looking for answers. Things are changing though. There's a guy named Cahill in Adelaide has some interesting ideas and he uses an active aether model.
 
@rickolasnice - a dig is not the same thing as name calling. Think of it this way - 2 guys having a discussion in a pub. One says, "you're just making shit up so you can pretend you know what you're talking about" - chances are pretty good the convo will keep on going, perhaps with a little more heat for a bit. Now picture one of them saying "you're a delusional wanker" and the chances are pretty good the convo stops right there as fist meets face.

I believe I said "Are you delusional".. which is a hell of a lot different than "You delusional wanker".. Don't you think?

The grandmother research clearly shows how much effect environment has on development via epigenetic tools. If we talk evidence, then epigenetics has far more in the short time the idea has been around than there is for Evolution under even neo-Darwinism.

I'm not disputing epigenetics.. But it is not the same thing as evolution.

As for RS, it isn't doppler effect although it looks a bit like it. In the SMC it is seen as an effect of Dark Energy and finding even one pair of objects showing a direct physical connection between a high RS and a low RS is enough to blow apart Dark Energy as a theory. Halton Arp found quite a few of them.

And if RS is NOT DE, the Big Bang is in a big hole because it means everything is NOT moving away from everything else and the universe is radically different to the standard model. As for Einstein, there are a number of things that belie Relativity in both special and general forms, but they have been suppressed. An active ether is one such - the evidence was not missing, it was suppressed because vested interests had a different idea. Maxwell's theorems - the original lot, not the messed about ones - also belie Relativity as an accurate model of how things are.

And sorry but i don't understand what you're saying here..

Not saying it doesn't make sense.. I just can't make sense of it.
 
This is the wrong thread for continuing on the RS/DE/BB ideas - they ahve strayed too far from Evolution/Creationism.

And you need to empty your Inbox - can't reply to you if it is full.

And actually, what you SAID was,
You're smarmy belief that you are somehow winning this debate reeks either of delusional fool or a wanky troll.
 
“Religion drives science and it matters”
Cornelius Hunter

“Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought.”
~ Cornelius Hunter

* Some unspecified change might occur by some mechanism, or it won’t.
* Known or unknown mechanisms might do something over time.
* The biosphere in the past looked similar or different than the biosphere looks today.
* Processes that might not exist could have caused the development of life in an unguided manner

I've been trying to pin down Darwin's theory I think I got it.
?
 
ATP Synthase The power plant of the cell HD(3D): http://youtu.be/LDSuV-zIRsc

This just comes about randomly?
It just happens? Chemicals combine and voilà....
little motors start turning and doing things?
Am I over simplifying this example?

Evolution had to randomly build these little motors one very tiny small step at a time. Blindly and with zero foresight.
Problem is when you start taking off little parts of the motor it quits working very quickly.
Dont believe me? Start taking parts off a functioning car engine and see how fast you have a bunch of useless parts.
How did evolution keep getting so lucky with each step on its way to a functioning motor?
What is the mechanism that selected for each tiny unseen step until it became an advantageous motor? You need a mechanism already in place to start assembly of a motor.
There seems to be a missing component.
Could it possibly be intelligence and the hand of a creator?
 
MM said:
How did evolution keep getting so lucky with each step on its way to a functioning motor?

The thing is, you cannot know of the bad luck and poor outcomes that would have inevitably occurred during evolution as the very functionality of natural selection forbids this. The situation we exist in is one of billions of years of random ocurrences, of which only some are beneficial, are then passed onto offspring and thus exist today. It is statistically probable/highly likely that evolutionary mutational processes developed non functioning or detrimental cellular structures or functionality that ended up being discarded as the host of this mutation was unable to reproduce it successfully or for as long.

A trillion detrimental mutations may have occurred which have largely been superseded and leave little evidence today. The motor you describe was made through serious trial and error.
 
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