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Creationism vs Evolution

A lot of that DNA isn't actually junk.. Ya know?
Yes... I know. But perhaps you could enlighten the geneticists? They don't agree with you. :D

As for the rest... you notice they are talking frequencies?

And I dare you to say the 2nd quoted paragraph in English... :D
 
You mean like Homo habilis? Or perhaps, if you'd like more ape like, Australopithecus afarensis.

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-family-tree

And yes if you google their names you'll see there are fossils.. the fossil page on the website is incomplete.

There ya go Meth.. be shocked.
Yeah... but... Why is it that none of them seem to relate directly to human? We shared the planet with something like 14 different kinds of hominid but only Neanderthal seems in any way related. There is a 'dark age' (not brought on by the Catholic Church :D) where humans became and we have nothing from that time. It is WHY the Alien hypothesis has so many followers.

I prefer to stay with Occam - we don't NEED aliens to explain things.

Hallucinogens is one contributor. Dogs are another.

And all this fits within UNintelligent Design... :D
 
First reply...

Unintelligent Design is not a book... yet. I'm working on it. In 40 years of reading peer reviewed journals I've never seen anyone suggest it.

There is NO evidence to suggest the universe started as a singularity EXCEPT Redshift. None, Zilch. Nada. Redshift is it.

Hubble, the guy who found RS didn't think it was viable. He also coined Big Bang and wasn't a fan opf that either.

Halton Arp has photos of high RS and low RS objects PHYSICALLY ATTACHED - that alone blows the whole Big Bang theory about as far out of the water as you can get and still be able to breathe. A guy with 40+ years as a professional Astronomer has physical evidence RS is NOT velocity.

The Big Bang theory has never been tweaked. What they do is invent magic to make their models agree with the Universe. 3 kinds of magic so far...

Inflation - literally defined as what it takes to make the BB turn into the Universe we see out there.
Dark Matter - literally defined as what it takes to make galaxies behave how the theory says they should.
Dark Energy - literally defined as a force needed to make Redshift explain the universe we see.

3 types of magic, ALL diametrically opposite to how Science is meant to work. You do NOT adjust the universe to make your theory right.

Ummm.. no there's more evidence that that..

What evidence or reason do you have to think red shift is not an indication that galaxies are moving away from us? The Doppler affect would disagree with you..

Yeah.. inflation is a tweak..

That is how theoretical physics works.. you think up something to fill the gaps and then test your idea over and over again.. What would you propose is a better alternative?

Remember that quantum theory, special / general relativity theory, the existence of black holes.. They all started in similar ways.
 
How I define entropy isn't relevant and the Universe defines nothing. Entropy IN A CLOSED SYSTEM means all transactions use energy so there is a steady decline from order to disorder or chaos.

How do you define it?

The only way OUT of entropic decay is not to be in a closed system../

So... how is it we see increasing order every time we look out into the Universe?
 
Lamarck's idea was that inheritance can be changed by the life led by the parent. If you have a different idea, please tell me.

The grandmother research PROVES that the life of the parent not only affects the child, it affects the child's children as well. Look it up, it's fascinating Science in real-world action.

Unlike the computer model stuff they call science these days. :D
 
Yeah... but... Why is it that none of them seem to relate directly to human? We shared the planet with something like 14 different kinds of hominid but only Neanderthal seems in any way related. There is a 'dark age' (not brought on by the Catholic Church :D) where humans became and we have nothing from that time. It is WHY the Alien hypothesis has so many followers.

I prefer to stay with Occam - we don't NEED aliens to explain things.

Hallucinogens is one contributor. Dogs are another.

And all this fits within UNintelligent Design... :D

What makes you say none of them relate directly to human?

And unintelligent design is already a book and a thing (unrelated to book)
 
How I define entropy isn't relevant and the Universe defines nothing. Entropy IN A CLOSED SYSTEM means all transactions use energy so there is a steady decline from order to disorder or chaos.

How do you define it?

The only way OUT of entropic decay is not to be in a closed system../

So... how is it we see increasing order every time we look out into the Universe?


Do we?

I didn't ask you to define entropy..

Surely you can use your intellect to work out why, eventually, the universe will die?
 
Lamarck's idea was that inheritance can be changed by the life led by the parent. If you have a different idea, please tell me.

The grandmother research PROVES that the life of the parent not only affects the child, it affects the child's children as well. Look it up, it's fascinating Science in real-world action.

Unlike the computer model stuff they call science these days. :D

Lamarcks idea was that that was how evolution worked. Epigenetics has little if anything to do with evolution.. Lamarck seemed to think that if an animal needed a long neck to reach food, stretching it's neck would lengthen it, and then that trait would be passed down. Not only does that itself not work.. That's not how evolution works. Nor is that what epigenetics is.
 
Lamarcks idea was that that was how evolution worked. Epigenetics has little if anything to do with evolution.. Lamarck seemed to think that if an animal needed a long neck to reach food, stretching it's neck would lengthen it, and then that trait would be passed down. That's not how evolution works nor is that what epigenetics is.
First... keep in mind WHEN Lamarck lived. It influences the terms he used to describe things.

Second... actually, maybe not for necks but that is precisely how epigenetics works. You need some background about cells. None of them initiate anything, including neurons. All cells work the same - they respond to input.

So... given that, how do YOU think epigenetics works?

Do you know about plasticity? That it can happen on a time scale of minutes? Especially in the brain?
 
Hah... no... Google version of Unintelligent design is not what I am talking about. Cute but... :D
 
Epigenetics is not mutation.. it is turning genes on or off..

I can not practise having darker skin, I can not practise eye sight, i can't practise bone density, i can't practise shortening the coding in my CCR5.

Epigenetics is not evolution.

I see you ignored my examples of mutations found in humans today..
 
Do we?
I didn't ask you to define entropy..
Surely you can use your intellect to work out why, eventually, the universe will die?
No, you didn't ask me to define entropy, you asked a much more ridiculous question. You asked…
How do you suppose the universe defies entropy?

Clearly you miss my point about entropy. Or you have some weird idea about the universe.

Also you miss what Lamarck actually said - he talked about acquired characteristics being inherited and that's EXACTLY what the grandmother research confirms.

Epigenetics turns out to have a lot to do with passing along characteristics, but try not putting words in my mouth - YOU are the believer in Evolution so trying to make out I am saying epigenetics replaces it somehow is just a red herring. You're making shit up to make out you know things you don't.

And I can use my intellect just fine thanks... and there is no reason to determine the Universe will die unless you accept the Big Bang idea as gospel. There are other scenarios and they are ones in which Man doesn't have to invent magic to make an hypothesis match up with the Universe 'out there.' To imply as you have that it is somehow inevitable puts you in the Believer category and belief has no place in Science.

And in Science, you do NOT 'tweak' the Universe to make your hypothesis correct, you go and find a new hypothesis that matches the facts. THAT is Science. What you think of as Science is clearly a religion that can't be wrong so you have to believe in magic to make it right.

As for order? Yes... we do. Or you haven't been looking. From sub-atomic to billion LY scale we see order.

And using labels given to fossils found under dubious circumstances by people who have a reason to exaggerate their finds is NOT providing examples of human evolution - if that's what you meant about mutations. Other than that you maybe should quote your examples so I can find them...?

Your examples about practicing show 2 things - a misunderstanding of what epigenetics is and a lack of understanding about what a Mind can do. That's OK... you're in good company... well, maybe not good but there are millions of you. :D
 
No, you didn't ask me to define entropy, you asked a much more ridiculous question. You asked…

Clearly you miss my point about entropy. Or you have some weird idea about the universe.

Also you miss what Lamarck actually said - he talked about acquired characteristics being inherited and that's EXACTLY what the grandmother research confirms.

Epigenetics turns out to have a lot to do with passing along characteristics, but try not putting words in my mouth - YOU are the believer in Evolution so trying to make out I am saying epigenetics replaces it somehow is just a red herring. You're making shit up to make out you know things you don't.

Oh god another one..

Meth.. still thinking evolution works by Lemarcks theory which it doesn't..

Google Lemarcks theory of evolution.. this is how you seem to evolution works.

Journeyman said:
A comment above about Lamarck is factually incorrect. Lamarck's ideas have recently been proven correct - environment CAN and DOES affect heredity. The grandmother research proves it and epigenetics gives the mechanism.

Oh dear buddy - you seem to be talking shit.

And no.. you are misunderstanding what he meant.

And I can use my intellect just fine thanks... and there is no reason to determine the Universe will die unless you accept the Big Bang idea as gospel. There are other scenarios and they are ones in which Man doesn't have to invent magic to make an hypothesis match up with the Universe 'out there.' To imply as you have that it is somehow inevitable puts you in the Believer category and belief has no place in Science.

Are you delusional? Do you really think that you understand the universe better than the scientists studying it?

Come on then.. what's your ground breaking nobel prize theory of how the universe works.

But no you're right on one thing, fair play, I don't know the universe will die.. It may simply retract back into itself and start all over again.. The universe's laws may be set up just right so that black holes break down the heavier atoms to become the fuel for new stars.

And in Science, you do NOT 'tweak' the Universe to make your hypothesis correct, you go and find a new hypothesis that matches the facts. THAT is Science. What you think of as Science is clearly a religion that can't be wrong so you have to believe in magic to make it right.

I didn't say that. I said the hypothesis has been and probably will be tweaked again once more information is gathered.

And what you think of science is that it claims to know the answer, and that answer is the truth. No no no my friend. Science forms a hypothesis based around evidence and information that we have.. when and if more information or new evidence arises which either adds more detail to the hypothesis or contradicts a part of it, then it is tweaked. It is reworked. If evidence arises which cannot be implemented into our current hypothesis, it's thrown out completely.

So clearly how I think of science is nothing like a religion.

As for order? Yes... we do. Or you haven't been looking. From sub-atomic to billion LY scale we see order.

I'm sorry but I have no idea what this is in reference to..

And using labels given to fossils found under dubious circumstances by people who have a reason to exaggerate their finds is NOT providing examples of human evolution - if that's what you meant about mutations. Other than that you maybe should quote your examples so I can find them...?

Dubious circumstances? lolwut?

You do know that the findings are open for the rest of the scientific community to take a look at? You really think the first unaffiliated scientist/s went down there, took a look, disagreed with the conclusion but turned around to the world to go- YEP! This is indeed a new species!.. And that every single scientist there after did the same thing?

I take it you are qualified enough to look at a skeleton, date it and then classify it?

And are you sure you're not an alt of meth? That's not what I meant by mutations at all. I'll post some pretty little links for you down below.

Your examples about practicing show 2 things - a misunderstanding of what epigenetics is and a lack of understanding about what a Mind can do. That's OK... you're in good company... well, maybe not good but there are millions of you. :D

Really? I'm fully aware of what epigenetics is.. If you'd like to quote the post in which I say something incorrect about epigenetics then please do.

How'd you work the second one out? What are you referring to? Why did you put a capital letter for mind?

You're smarmy belief that you are somehow winning this debate reeks either of delusional fool or a wanky troll.

But a small community in Italy is known to have a mutant version of this protein, named Apolipoprotein AI-Milano, or Apo-AIM for short. Apo-AIM is even more effective than Apo-AI at removing cholesterol from cells and dissolving arterial plaques, and additionally functions as an antioxidant, preventing some of the damage from inflammation that normally occurs in arteriosclerosis.

Mutations which impair the function of LRP5 are known to cause osteoporosis. But a different kind of mutation can amplify its function, causing one of the most unusual human mutations known.

This mutation was first discovered fortuitously, when a young person from a Midwest family was in a serious car crash from which they walked away with no broken bones. X-rays found that they, as well as other members of the same family, had bones significantly stronger and denser than average.

Italian researchers studying the population of the African country of Burkina Faso found a protective effect associated with a different variant of hemoglobin, named HbC. People with just one copy of this gene are 29% less likely to get malaria, while people with two copies enjoy a 93% reduction in risk. And this gene variant causes, at worst, a mild anemia, nowhere near as debilitating as sickle-cell disease.

However, my favorite example of a beneficial mutation is called “the CCR5Δ32 mutation.” This is where a certain protein that sits on the surface of your cells is missing a small segment. Because of this deletion, the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is unable to attach to and enter your cells. This means that individuals with one copy of this gene are resistant to AIDS, and people with two copies of this mutation are completely immune to HIV-1.

There are more.. but that'll do for now.

Oh, and obviously they're some of the beneficial mutations.. There are of course - many more detrimental mutations such as Progeria, Hypertrichosis and Epidermodysplasia Verruciformis to name a few.

Are you still going to try and deny that genetic mutations happen?
 
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Isnt it possible that man has been created seperately from apes?
That Nenderthal was identical to man only with a extremely minute loss of information.
Isolated genes that forced selective breeding.
Try turning your way of thinking around.
Instead of thinking bottom up think of top down.
We were in order but now we are heading towards ultimate chaos. Things took place in perfect order but now now randomness has crept in. Humans/life does the best it can to scrap every bit of order they can to perserve and hold on to this order. What if we were created from bottom up perfectly, and now we are going from top down randomly.
Im not trying to get into the philosophic side of debate, but scientifically it could go this way.
There had to be something that is order that defies chaos ie violates entrophy.
And it must have the upperhand or randomness would be the norm. It would be just as likely for me to walk outside and find my car in pieces as it would be to find it together if randomness was king.
Things must behave or face death/annihilation.
Random is the absence of order. I submit it doesnt really exist other than description.
Random (not true randomness it is restrained)must exist for humans to have free will, but only for a season.
Spreme order will return one day and when it does it will reign forever more.
Something to think about.
 
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Possibility? Sure.
Probability? So low it's almost 0.

Meth. We ARE apes. I don't mean we evolved from them. I mean the human race is a species of ape.

Considering almost all Europeans and Asians have Neanderthal DNA in their genome.. I'd say it's highly likely we evolved from one of the other hominids around at the time.. Homo heidelbergensis and / or Homo habilis and obviously.. Neanderthal.. Homo sapiens haven't been around that long.. don't you find it a bit odd that the other hominids phase out around the time of our appearance?

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post, sorry :\

But the plane, through random chance, becoming fully built - is a failed analogy.
 
As J-man pointed out species is a man made term.
And can mean almost anything.
I'm trying not to use theism in this debate,
but there is a reason for tainted DNA.
But I will go with your theory.
Why wouldnt I expect Neanderthal DNA to be in our genome? They were men.
You're acting like they were a differnt scpecies.
edit:
The car (not plane) anology was in respect to randomness.
If randomness is the norm, you would expect just about anything to happen. Go to put your shirt on and it turn to shreds--fall apart in structure.
Would be just a likely chance as it staying together
 
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No species has a definition i've spelt it out many times before im not going to again.. google is your friend..

It's true, by the definition of species then neanderthals would have had to have been the same as our other ancestor.. althought but we are not neanderthal anymore.. we had evolved.. we are a new species.

Yes I know you used car but the person who came up with the shit analogy used plane, so i'll stick with it..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkyard_tornado

Took literally two seconds to refute it. You should try it some time.. google whatever it is you read from a creationist site followed by the word debunked.. Would save me a lot of time.
 
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lol
Im not using the junkyard anology.
Im saying what you already agree with.
Something has to exist outside universe or at least unseen in this universe or I would have just a likely chance of the opposite of A happening as A happening (B)
Im sure you agree with this. What is crazy on the quantum level (unseen) this doesnt hold up.
(See shrodengers cat)
Rico, you have put yourself in a box with your best friend randomness. And when you see something like a butterfly and how it uses metamorphosis to become life, you cant possibly dial ask a friend randomness for answer cause he has no clue.
So your forced to use only imigination instead of science to answer. BUT ironically it takes intelligence to do that.
Let your mind open. True random modern synthesis doesnt fit the observed evidence.
J-man pointed out your unwillingness to follow the evidence no matter the conclusion.
Again you're free to believe what you want and I cant falsify your belief, but if you're waiting for an entirely scientific explanation of life and its meaning, Im afraid you will be waiting a long time.
There is another knowledge out there I submit.
Knowledge of God. Its hardwired in you so dont look with your eyes. You will not be able to look and say here it is, or there it is,
but trust me on this one thing.....
You can test it
 
Evolution, for a start, is not a completely random process.

Secondly - I posted an article and a link to a study talking about the evolution of metamorphosis.. You have to remember that during the evolutionary history of the butterfly it would not have been caterpillar, cocoon, butterfly..

But blah blah blah it irrelevant. The evidence available that supports the theory of evolution by natural selection is overwhelming.

You having refuted one piece that i've given you.. you just continually ask "how does evolution explain this then"

It's like me gathering tons of evidence that a ball always rolls down hill.. then one day when the experimenter left the ball at the bottom of the hill he went to get lunch .. on his return the ball was at the top of the hill.

How did it get there? Nobody knows. Does it negate the evidence gathered that the ball will always roll down the hill? No.

I'm interested in how you think i could test knowledge of God.. I can almost guarantee i know more about scripture than you.
 
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