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Creation, by Nature and by Humans. Why?

Volsam

Volsam

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 19, 2016
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908
A lot of times, especially when tripping introspectively or meditating deeply, I would find all human creations repulsive, ugly, scary and laughable at best, whereas creations of nature and cosmos (God if you like) appear majestic, beautiful and full of meaning.

Being a man of arts (music and some visual), I stumble to think why do we strive so much to create or even more recreate (something naturally existing) when the end result is a lot of times so disappointing and only can be loved on a personal, ego level?

If you look at the animal kingdom, their creative models are limited to what is necessary to the immediate survival, what makes humans make things differently?

What is driving us humans to create, evolution? The deep feeling of need to give our "fire" to the next generation of life forms? Are we trying to "create" a God while creating things (art including)? Are we trying to feel that we are "Creators"?..8)

Thoughts and rambles are welcome! :D
 
I do believe we simply won the evolutionary lottery to be able to create things outside our immediate need for survival.
 
I also do think that it is some kind of evolutionary "glitch" that allowed us humans to internalize all the experience, thus, perhaps creating "the concept of God".

I'm particularly interested in our human repulsion towards our own creations - it is a feeling that is way down inside and doesn't seem to surface usually within our daily ego-realm. Why do I "hate" what I create?..
 
Most philosophers and most people would say art or craftsmanship is beautiful because it is the use of the creative faculties (the part that makes us human) or is a reflection of perfection or expression of the soul. Orthodox Jews would even say we are co-creators with God and that’s why they don’t work on the sabbath. God rests as so should we.

Yet, Plato surprisingly disagrees. He says in the Republic that artist are poor imitators. He says of artistic painters

“You will speedily produce the sun and all the things in the sky, and speedily the earth and yourself and the other animals and implements and plants and all the objects of which we just now spoke.” “Yes,” he said, “the appearance of them, but not the reality and the truth.” “Excellent,” said I, “and you come to the aid of the argument opportunely. For I take it that the painter too belongs to this class of producers, does he not?” “Of course.” “But you will say, I suppose, that his creations are not real and true. And yet, after a fashion, the painter too makes a couch, does he not?” “Yes,” he said, “the appearance of one, he too.”
(Republic book 10)

So what Plato is saying is the a painting of a tree is just an imitation tree. For Plato, the particular tree is actual just a shadow of the Real Tree (a Form), the perfect idea of a perfect tree. So a painting is a imitation of imitation.

I suppose new age and Wiccan types might say a tree has greater life force than a painting of a tree or a chair does.

I think I would go with a little bit of the new age idea but with a Neoplatonist spin. Plotinus believes in a world soul or a collective soul essence of the whole world that each part of creation participated in and is interrelated. The transcendentalists like Emerson thought this too. So I think that perhaps a tree participates more in the world soul and you feel a greater connection to it than a trashed coke bottle. But don’t forget there’s beauty in the coke bottle to. But I wouldn’t pass on meditating in a forest to sit in a landfill. Would you?
 
But theres a world of difference in loving nature and animals compare to human creation. I remember the first time on Psylocybin mushrooms I was super scared and disgusted by buildings, but ocean and forest were drawing me with their beauty. I remember (on 4-AcO-DMT) laughing at how stupid were human shoes but being in awe and mesmerized looking at the rocks formation and the moon. I remember (when doing walking meditation for hours) that I became very aversed with music in my headphones but I was rather captured by the beauty of birds chirping and sounds of the river flowing.

Yet, a lot of times, I would sit with my music instruments and feel an immense push to create something, to capture that perfect imbalance of forces tearing me apart inside and spill it in a form of music. And I would feel Godly while doing it. But... some time later I would listen to my creations and I would hate them.

And dont even get me started on money - really hard and painful concept that makes you think worthless if you dont have enough. Money IMO is simply an equation of our human interrelationships so if you are a solitary being, you kinda always feel "left out".
 
MysticMonist said:
Most philosophers and most people would say art or craftsmanship is beautiful because it is the use of the creative faculties (the part that makes us human) or is a reflection of perfection or expression of the soul. Orthodox Jews would even say we are co-creators with God and that’s why they don’t work on the sabbath. God rests as so should we.

Yet, Plato surprisingly disagrees. He says in the Republic that artist are poor imitators. He says of artistic painters

“You will speedily produce the sun and all the things in the sky, and speedily the earth and yourself and the other animals and implements and plants and all the objects of which we just now spoke.” “Yes,” he said, “the appearance of them, but not the reality and the truth.” “Excellent,” said I, “and you come to the aid of the argument opportunely. For I take it that the painter too belongs to this class of producers, does he not?” “Of course.” “But you will say, I suppose, that his creations are not real and true. And yet, after a fashion, the painter too makes a couch, does he not?” “Yes,” he said, “the appearance of one, he too.”
(Republic book 10)

So what Plato is saying is the a painting of a tree is just an imitation tree. For Plato, the particular tree is actual just a shadow of the Real Tree (a Form), the perfect idea of a perfect tree. So a painting is a imitation of imitation.

I suppose new age and Wiccan types might say a tree has greater life force than a painting of a tree or a chair does.

I think I would go with a little bit of the new age idea but with a Neoplatonist spin. Plotinus believes in a world soul or a collective soul essence of the whole world that each part of creation participated in and is interrelated. The transcendentalists like Emerson thought this too. So I think that perhaps a tree participates more in the world soul and you feel a greater connection to it than a trashed coke bottle. But don’t forget there’s beauty in the coke bottle to. But I wouldn’t pass on meditating in a forest to sit in a landfill. Would you?
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^^^ I agree with you that trees feel very different from the painting or a chair - both painting and a chair would imply limitations and internal drama if I would to contemplate them.

I also believe in a collective soul, which may be called God just as well.

I remember on a hefty dosage of 2C-P, the impression that animals and nature had on me - I simply wanted to run away from our society, run away from all it's economy, politics, things, buildings... Yet I came down and had to think about going to sleep inside the house, driving my car back home and all that.
 
Art isnt limited to painting the natural world though. We are able to create abstract images and finding beauty in them.
 
Yes, abstraction is a very interesting form of human art that is THE MOST human in it's way I think, and thus, since we are creations of nature too, is of the most beauty to me of all that is made by us. I have noticed that a lot of visual artists move to abstractions after trying out everything else. It CAN be very ugly too though, especially "commercial abstraction art" made just to sell...=D

I remember having sex with my girlfriend one time on acid and thinking that perhaps this is the most important creation we can participate at - to give birth to another being - it felt deeply tantric (and I'm not even talking about all the visual and thought forms I perceived then 8)) and that experience tied us together ever since, it was very beautiful.
 
I think abstraction goes back to the evolutionary edge we have over other species. Being able to think in such ways no doubt lead to our becoming the dominate species on Earth.
 
Volsam said:
I'm particularly interested in our human repulsion towards our own creations - it is a feeling that is way down inside and doesn't seem to surface usually within our daily ego-realm. Why do I "hate" what I create?..
Click to expand...

Do you mean that feeling that you were unable to realize your own vision when creating art? I'm trying to understand before I comment.
 
herbavore said:
Do you mean that feeling that you were unable to realize your own vision when creating art? I'm trying to understand before I comment.
Click to expand...

Perhaps in a way, but it's more like I stop perceiving them beautiful after that beautiful moment of creation. After the recording and subsequent listening I start hating on my music in a deep dark way, its hard to explain - it's like I want to be close to what makes me "me" and "express my soul" just to find later that all it was just a mere ego expression and imitation.

I know at least a couple of people who hate their art but nonetheless they keep doing that. Also makes me think of Franz Kafka and how he didnt want any of his works to be published ever and only thanks to his friend they were.
 
The same force which promotes the single celled organism to grope around and move into new spaces is the same thing at the heart of our creativity. Curiosity and desire. Inherently programmed into all biological life.

Our creativity appears to be very complex and dynamic to us, and we love to take credit for it of course. But we're not all that dissimilar from the single celled organism in reality.
 
When you listen to your music after creation, what is it you hate about it? Is it you feel it could be your technique was poor or the whole thing is creatively poor? Many musicians are hard on themselves for poor musicianship but that can be fixed.
 
-=SS=- said:
The same force which promotes the single celled organism to grope around and move into new spaces is the same thing at the heart of our creativity. Curiosity and desire. Inherently programmed into all biological life.

Our creativity appears to be very complex and dynamic to us, and we love to take credit for it of course. But we're not all that dissimilar from the single celled organism in reality.
Click to expand...

Sure we are. Language, culture, society, the ability to manipulate the natural world in extreme ways to our benefit. No other species has the creativity to do all of this and much more.
 
I think SS is saying that language, culture, society and the ability to imitate the natural world is extreme ways is just an extension of this same creative drive. I tend to agree - because of the capabilities given us by our advanced brains and our opposable thumbs, we have the ability to explore more than any other form of life we know about. But the same drive exists in all life (maybe). I certainly see it in other higher mammals. My cats are always checking stuff out, poking at it, exploring, pushing their boundaries. The same as we do.

Volsam, that's a bummer you hate your art after you create it. For me, the creation of it is the best part (I'm talking about music here mostly), but I LOVE a good recording of me and/or my band. Having some of those recordings is almost the best part because now it's this idea that is fixed into permanence, and by re-listening I can re-experience that moment to some extent, and have new moments where the feelings of that moment are transposed over the new feelings of the new moment.

I like this thread. :) I'll try to think of something to add besides this post.
 
Volsam said:
I simply wanted to run away from our society, run away from all it's economy, politics, things, buildings... Yet I came down and had to think about going to sleep inside the house, driving my car back home and all that.
Click to expand...

I feel that way a lot, without tripping. It’s probably my biggest struggle is not become a contemplative hermit and because I have a wife and kids feeling trapped in the world. I take some comfort that monks and hermits themselves say it doesn’t make it easier. They still worry and are driven by their egos of who can pray the longest or who gets to clean the holy vases, and on and on.

That’s why I love studying psychedelics. It’s proof to me that the route to deeper connection with God isn’t more prayers or in a monastery or in rituals, but it’s already there inside of me.
 
I taught art to children for many years. Every year I started out by telling them that all I really wanted to teach them was how to be the artist that they used to be when they were about 3 years old. Because the truth is that they could teach me as much about painting and drawing as I could teach them. Yes, I could teach them things like how to hold a brush to have more control, how to use perspective and many more technical skills but then who needs me? Now you have youtube! What I wanted to teach them was how to manage their own relationship to their creative side and that all had to do with the relationship to criticism. I told them that developing their own motivating critical voice was the most important part of becoming an artist and even more importantly, staying an artist. At three the critical voice is amazingly well balanced. A three year old will make a drawing to express an idea--usually for him or her self alone--they don't even care if anyone else sees it or not; nor are they usually even interested in it themselves once its done. They are critical only when it does not express what they had envisioned but rather than being discouraged, they just try again. And again and again. There is no cataloguing of failure going on in their minds--it is pure process, pure learning. The minute kids come to school all that changes and the critical voice goes from being a motivator to shutting down the whole creative process by introducing the fear of "failure" and the shame of "failure". A word that I tried to get the kids to substitute for failure when it came to art was 'practice'.

In my own art, I am rarely satisfied but that does not mean I hate my work. I just see the gap in between where I am and where I want to be.

One of the most toxic things for me was trying to make a living selling my art. It is impossible not to be influenced by what sells and what does not and there is no surer way to divide yourself from your own wild and free expression than anticipating sales.:( I would have to say that the only things I have ever created that I truly hated were things that I did projecting monetary gain aforehand. )

Creating for me is all about achieving the flow state. When this happens and it is pure engagement, just like for my long-ago three year old self, there is no final product to love or hate.
 
herbavore said:
One of the most toxic things for me was trying to make a living selling my art. It is impossible not to be influenced by what sells and what does not and there is no surer way to divide yourself from your own wild and free expression than anticipating sales.:( I would have to say that the only things I have ever created that I truly hated were things that I did projecting monetary gain aforehand. )
Click to expand...

YES... so true. I eventually stopped trying to sell my art because it was deeply discouraging and made me feel cynical about people and myself. And it was lonely.

The art I like the best is creating music, especially with my band (some of my best friends)... the action itself is the reward. The feeling I get when deep into creating is unlike any other feeling. If I never make much money with it I will be 100% satisfied still that I did it. I love the music I create, the very opposite of hating.
 
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