I wish we could have everyone get on board with this. It won't fix much in the grand scheme of how fucked up the US is, but it's a compassionate start.
Cops Like Me Say Legalize All Drugs. Here’s Why.
- Thread starter iamthesuck
- Start date
I
^Absolutely! Timing, method, among other things, like what you do after asking 
Just to qualify my posts here, I know I probably have been coming off as at least a little antagonizing, but we all pretty much agree. I'll just have to see where the conversation takes us...
Just to qualify my posts here, I know I probably have been coming off as at least a little antagonizing, but we all pretty much agree. I'll just have to see where the conversation takes us...
B
if you're not sure how they wouldn't help legalization, maybe you could explain why you think they do help legalization? I know you're not implying they're merely neutral with regards to legalization, because you brought them up in the context of what one can do aside from just words.toothpastedog;12579560 said:
anything you mention about angel davis and her thinking prisons are obsolete, i cannot in good conscience even read, i mean hearing about how prisons are bad from her is like hearing from Tyrone that crack is great
(see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County_courthouse_incident)
what i'm trying to get out of you, is what do you - specifically - think is more important than words? as-in, what actions are you contending are more relevant to legalization than words? making drug usage 'better' in a prohibition-society is great for drug users and all, whether it's silk road or needle exchanges, but i fail to see how making life easier for drug users right now leads to legalization. If anything i could argue those two examples (SR and needle exchanges) hurt legalization efforts.
The biggest thing i see right now for legalization, is what Colorado's doing. I cannot say i think (across the board) legalization, or even de-crim, is coming soon - or ever. But, if it does, it will be in baby-steps, and colorado is taking the biggest steps here, by a good margin.
If research companies and new pharmaceutical companies would conduct research on these drugs, make modifications to make new drugs, and then sell it through pharmacies, smart shops [literal building] and other, then it would me more controlled and high quality. If people get educated about what they're going to take before they take it and measure the risk benefit ratio, then we have a society that generally says no to the more harmful drugs and take the safer ones. Many psychedelics are already showing to have medical, anxiolytic and/or nootropic properties. The 2C-x series shows energy enhancing, anti-anxiety, or nootropic effects. If expanded, there would be more possibilities. Modified ecstasy shows promise in curing blood cancers. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14572284 It's a shame the cure is illegal just because it's an analogue of MDA and MDMA. The federal analog act and similar laws suck! Prohibition just leads to shoddy product, limited selection of drugs, more harmful ones surfacing, and poor quality. Furthermore, people who get hooked would be stigmatized and jailing only leads to increased usage of the more harmful drugs and misuse. Responsibility matters! The fact that people who use drugs can't go to college, get a job, or be self sufficient will lead them to turn to bad drugs and to not using other drugs responsibly. These people feel like they have no choice but to deal drugs of questionable quality. The war on drugs is a war against the poor, the transhumanist, the raver, and the hippie. The corporations are just afraid that there will be another occupy wall street except at least 10 times bigger. They're afraid of occupy government and the rise of intellectualism. They keep society into a state of anti-intellectualism so that the 1/10 of 1% can have all the money and not pay they're fair share of taxes. They close loopholes and glitches and life hacks for the rest of us while funneling millions of dollars in ultra wealthy loopholes, excessive lobbying, and a senseless war on drugs. Why isn't there a war on ignorance?
Maybe it's just a rant!
Maybe it's just a rant!
B
that bbc article made me want to break my computer 
I
Paragraphs are your friend Skyblue...
To reply to your post bmxxx, I can't see legalization happening without some significant sea change in our culture. That is, drugs and drug use getting reframed into something that is realistic and sane. Our drug policy, one rooted in bigotry and myth, is perpetuated as the status-qua (and our present culture) by misunderstanding, fear and good intentions. Most people seem to still think drugs are bad across the board, some perhaps with a few exceptions. At present drug policy has little to do with reality.
Co-opting the culture supporting the prohibitionist status qua would then require grounding it in the reality of drugs and drug use. Who is more acquainted with the realities of drug use than those who use them? Of course drug users are just as vulnerable to drug war mythologies or the if well intentioned narrow mindedness of the abstinence rooted treatment industry and criminal justice system when it comes to even their own drug use, but that's besides the point.
Consider that people with either a direct relationship to drug use or just a common sense that hasn't been corrupted by the present prohibitionist mythos come from all walks of life. The more these people find ways to influence the status qua, or root the way our culture understands drugs in whole of reality (as opposed to just one narrow kernel of truth), the more a sane policy towards them will gain momentum.
In the sense that needle exchanges, for instance, keep drug users alive and (as) healthy (as possible - as it's also up to the user of course at some level), the more they can affect the way our culture regards drugs. Of course, I'm not such a determinist to believe it's so cut and dry, or simplistic, or abstracted. As I said earlier, speaking up is key to any such effort. But so too, perhaps not more so but at least as much so, is the actions we've taken once we've spoken up.
I was thinking the other day that, when it comes to drug law enforcement speaking up and out against their nefarious policies and practices, in a real way they're like whistle blower, informing the public that something fucked up and horribly wrong whereas the public's interests are concerned. A movie about a big tobacco whistle blower was what started this thought. This is truly a heroic act, and I never meant to ignore or downplay it at all. But, as with the whistle blower, a lot more is necessary than just making information available. That's absolutely key and still very essential (as there is so much ignorance and misguided shit and prohibitionist propaganda out there about the reality of drug use of course), but alone it just isn't enough.
I would list some super concrete actions (any)one (...almost anyone at least) could take that would promote legalization, directly and indirectly, but (I'd hope) at least for those posting on BL we should all be able to come up with some even without much creativity. It's a rather personal thing now that I think more about it, as we all can do something, but what is most important for each of us to do depends on with our own situations and place in our prohibitionist society. What did someone once say, The Personal is Political
[EDIT: And we're talking about Legalization, not just legalization in the sense people referred to it in Colorado and Washington, meaning only the legalization of cannabis, right? My posts were based on the assumption we were talking about it in the universal sense, not just as it pertains to one drug/plant/medicine.]
To reply to your post bmxxx, I can't see legalization happening without some significant sea change in our culture. That is, drugs and drug use getting reframed into something that is realistic and sane. Our drug policy, one rooted in bigotry and myth, is perpetuated as the status-qua (and our present culture) by misunderstanding, fear and good intentions. Most people seem to still think drugs are bad across the board, some perhaps with a few exceptions. At present drug policy has little to do with reality.
Co-opting the culture supporting the prohibitionist status qua would then require grounding it in the reality of drugs and drug use. Who is more acquainted with the realities of drug use than those who use them? Of course drug users are just as vulnerable to drug war mythologies or the if well intentioned narrow mindedness of the abstinence rooted treatment industry and criminal justice system when it comes to even their own drug use, but that's besides the point.
Consider that people with either a direct relationship to drug use or just a common sense that hasn't been corrupted by the present prohibitionist mythos come from all walks of life. The more these people find ways to influence the status qua, or root the way our culture understands drugs in whole of reality (as opposed to just one narrow kernel of truth), the more a sane policy towards them will gain momentum.
In the sense that needle exchanges, for instance, keep drug users alive and (as) healthy (as possible - as it's also up to the user of course at some level), the more they can affect the way our culture regards drugs. Of course, I'm not such a determinist to believe it's so cut and dry, or simplistic, or abstracted. As I said earlier, speaking up is key to any such effort. But so too, perhaps not more so but at least as much so, is the actions we've taken once we've spoken up.
I was thinking the other day that, when it comes to drug law enforcement speaking up and out against their nefarious policies and practices, in a real way they're like whistle blower, informing the public that something fucked up and horribly wrong whereas the public's interests are concerned. A movie about a big tobacco whistle blower was what started this thought. This is truly a heroic act, and I never meant to ignore or downplay it at all. But, as with the whistle blower, a lot more is necessary than just making information available. That's absolutely key and still very essential (as there is so much ignorance and misguided shit and prohibitionist propaganda out there about the reality of drug use of course), but alone it just isn't enough.
I would list some super concrete actions (any)one (...almost anyone at least) could take that would promote legalization, directly and indirectly, but (I'd hope) at least for those posting on BL we should all be able to come up with some even without much creativity. It's a rather personal thing now that I think more about it, as we all can do something, but what is most important for each of us to do depends on with our own situations and place in our prohibitionist society. What did someone once say, The Personal is Political
[EDIT: And we're talking about Legalization, not just legalization in the sense people referred to it in Colorado and Washington, meaning only the legalization of cannabis, right? My posts were based on the assumption we were talking about it in the universal sense, not just as it pertains to one drug/plant/medicine.]
B
you didn't mention a single specific thing, besides words. please do, or admit you don't have something in mind. just a single sentence, w/ something that's more useful than words.
Re needle exchanges being indirect help, in that it keeps IV users alive&healthy longer to then talk, that's hardly useful - they are the poster-boys for why legalization would be problematic!!
And yes, i was talking of legalization in the universal sense; as i said, it will happen, if it ever does, by baby steps. The first baby step is recreational marijuana regulated like alcohol.
Re needle exchanges being indirect help, in that it keeps IV users alive&healthy longer to then talk, that's hardly useful - they are the poster-boys for why legalization would be problematic!!
And yes, i was talking of legalization in the universal sense; as i said, it will happen, if it ever does, by baby steps. The first baby step is recreational marijuana regulated like alcohol.
I
Not sure what I hand in mind before frankly, but?...
Volunteer for NORML, lol
Distribute Narcan.
Get a job with the DPI.
Get a job with the Gov't and change the system from within.
Teach friends and acquaintances who use on proper HR technique.
Start a company with your beliefs regarding legalization in mind (at the front of your mind).
Ask your local grass roots efforts, such as ABWF-CT in Hartford, Connecticut (helped to begin to meaningfully address the crack v powder cocaine mandatory minimum sentencing disparity), what you can do to directly address and work to ending the WOD.
Show other people what it means to be a responsible, hard working, successful drug user (or someone who acts as if they understand that positive characteristics like responsibility, maturity, discipline and thoughtfulness are not qualities mutually exclusive drug use). People do it with caffiene, alcohol and cigarettes all the time. More and more are doing it with cannabis. So find a way to do it with your DOC that doesn't end up causing more harm to you (like, be careful of DLE, certain employers, family and friends, etc). Harm that you can't handle at least.
Regarding needle exchanges again, why after all are they so problematic for legalization efforts after all? Because they scare the misinformed majority away? Needle exchanges, I'd argue, directly promote legalization efforts in that they directly address such information in a lot if not all the work they do (or should do, or should be legally allowed to do).
Look at Insite. An extreme example, but a very good one for our case - in how some folks fear how it will harm the movement, how others were afraid it would promote drug use (as opposed to what it actually ended/ends up doing), and especially how controversy surrounding Insite has brought a lot of the bullshit and bigotry that so hinders universal legalization efforts from moving along, as you put it, step by step. This isn't a negation of its signfiicance, but a lot more has to come after cannabis re legalization. It's just one step of the many necessary.
Volunteer for NORML, lol
Distribute Narcan.
Get a job with the DPI.
Get a job with the Gov't and change the system from within.
Teach friends and acquaintances who use on proper HR technique.
Start a company with your beliefs regarding legalization in mind (at the front of your mind).
Ask your local grass roots efforts, such as ABWF-CT in Hartford, Connecticut (helped to begin to meaningfully address the crack v powder cocaine mandatory minimum sentencing disparity), what you can do to directly address and work to ending the WOD.
Show other people what it means to be a responsible, hard working, successful drug user (or someone who acts as if they understand that positive characteristics like responsibility, maturity, discipline and thoughtfulness are not qualities mutually exclusive drug use). People do it with caffiene, alcohol and cigarettes all the time. More and more are doing it with cannabis. So find a way to do it with your DOC that doesn't end up causing more harm to you (like, be careful of DLE, certain employers, family and friends, etc). Harm that you can't handle at least.
Regarding needle exchanges again, why after all are they so problematic for legalization efforts after all? Because they scare the misinformed majority away? Needle exchanges, I'd argue, directly promote legalization efforts in that they directly address such information in a lot if not all the work they do (or should do, or should be legally allowed to do).
Look at Insite. An extreme example, but a very good one for our case - in how some folks fear how it will harm the movement, how others were afraid it would promote drug use (as opposed to what it actually ended/ends up doing), and especially how controversy surrounding Insite has brought a lot of the bullshit and bigotry that so hinders universal legalization efforts from moving along, as you put it, step by step. This isn't a negation of its signfiicance, but a lot more has to come after cannabis re legalization. It's just one step of the many necessary.
B
i don't think they have any real influence one way or the other but, responding to you saying they help keep IV users healthier/alive longer, thereby giving them voices in this for a longer time, well i don't think that's helpful. The reason is because the overwhelming majority of IV users, and particularly IV users who need to use public services for their needles, are the epitome of "when drug use goes wrong" Surely you can see how non-drug users, being told 'legalization is right' by someone who frequents the local needle exchange, is counter-productive.toothpastedog;12590008 said:
that said though, i don't see that factor as significant one way or the other.
We need to figure out how to spread this message so more states get on board.iamthesuck;12312188 said:
Feedback123;12644908 said:
Touché %)
In my opinion, the so-called 'Bible Belt' collection of states - one of which I grew up in - are the real test with respect to drug policy reform. And if they can somehow find the rationale to do so, the other states should have an easier time of doing so as well.
citizenuzi;12320237 said:
Well worded with valid points... Alcohol keeps coming to mind.
bmxxx;12590387 said:
Just to throw in my $.02 I used to be a needle junkie and i've learned that needle exchanges equal more dirty needles... A lot more than one would ever buy if given the choice. Hence one Hep C or HIV ridden junkie will produce 100 times more infected rigs to be shared with other uncaring/unknowing users. When ur in opiate withdrawl your main concern is how sharp it is as silly as that sounds. You don't think about the rest til afterward. I carried my own clean rigs, but that gets harder and harder as you meet more iv users. I can't walk around with 50 rigs all the time just incase.
vintagehigh;12655011 said:
I was also a needle user.. people cant use their use and addictions as excuses for not taking care of themselves. What you talking about is not the result of clean needles being given out, its the result of what people have chosen to do with the needles they received. I had access to all the needles I wanted as they were over the counter where I lived and I used a sharps container and used my rigs only once.
I was careful to keep my own cleans, and to use them once... Maybe a few more times if necessary. I've just seen a lot of desperation i guess. We only have one needle exchange here and their hours suck!
Point was that needle depots make for more needles and most "junkies" aren't the responsible types.
Point was that needle depots make for more needles and most "junkies" aren't the responsible types.
B
neversickanymore;12655061 said:
sure they can. Ever seen someone w/ a dilaudid and only that gross old rig their friend gave them? Seen someone combing carpet for rock and getting like 50% dust in their piles? lol
Hard drugs are their own punishment, no need to make it worse w/ jail terms, inflated drug prices or restricted paraphenelia.
Vintagehigh, can you elaborate on how exchanges caused more dirty needles? I lived in an area where dilaudid was epidemic and needles were harder for ppl to get than the pills, and this (obviously) led to most users getting every last inch of life out of 'single-use' insulin pins.
Needle exchanges do not harm anybody but the users still seem to share the needles; especially if there is any limit on the quantity of needles they can use.
This is not a fact or personal experience. One multivariate study gave this conclusion. There does not appear to be much evidence which refutes it.
This is not a fact or personal experience. One multivariate study gave this conclusion. There does not appear to be much evidence which refutes it.
I like this article, agreed 100% prohibition solves nothing imo
What an interesting perspective for a law officer! I had no idea there was a group of cops who are on board with drug law reform, whether it be full blown legalization or decriminalization. As an educated man who once had a future in politics, and now currently an on and off again opiate addict (11 years, minus a few 30 day detoxes and a couple intensive month rehabs) im at a point now where im just done, sick of it, ready to stay off heroin at least for a long while if not forever after this latest month habit. It feels different, like i have no desire to go back but my body is still screaming inside for that old familiar feeling, or just a little relief to take the edge off. My withdrawal symptoms never really seem to go away, or manifest themselves differently the longer i stay clean. The longest time ive been clean was 8 months, and even then i suffered great pains and discovered i have some kind of anxiety disorder. Seeking treatment for post-addiction mental imbalances is a nightmare in my experience. I would recommend finding a specialist who deeply knows addiction. It's strange to think there are doctors out there treating addiction who probably know less about it than the patients. On the other hand, 12 step based programs provide relatable people, but they sabotage their real cause (recovery for any addict who wants it) by encrypting borderline religious and "spiritual" concepts that not all addicts can embrace and be honest with themselves. I admit this too, when i took my first rehab seriously, i just bought into the God and the higher power thing HOOK LINE and SINKER because i was so desperate to get out of the suffering i was in i was willing to do ANYTHING, even if i had to pretend to get this dumb God thing they insisted on teaching us instead of the science behind our addictions...and the way the program explains in the book that it can still supposedly works for agnostics? Well there's no chapter in it on Atheism, in fact the book never acknowledges this potentially valuable group. We are left to forge our own way, editing the God stuff out of the literature and then trying to interpret it into a more secular humanist sense. "Ok, if my higher power doesnt have to be GOD, the imaginary spaghetti monster, then i'll make it REAL PEOPLE I KNOW who are going down the same path of recovery and succeeding. All the addicts that are actually trying to change and really putting in the work, those people are my higher power. Im not greater than a countless worldwide network of people who were once stuck in various states of degeneracy and hopelessness and are now fully committed to bettering themselves and showing the same way to others. That is of way more practical help than any God or religious malarchy. Unfortunately, most 12-step *quasi* religious addiction programs are state funded, which really begs the question, isnt that a breach of the seperation between church and state?
I could go on forever on this subject and found this article enlightening, and pleasantly surprising to see that some cops understand some of the laws they are supposed to enforce are ineffectual and usually arbitrary. When it comes to the drug war, i hope more cops open their eyes to the bigger picture and treat non-violent addicts like human beings with serious disorders. Besides weed. That should be sold in liqour stores and alcohol should need a prescription
I could go on forever on this subject and found this article enlightening, and pleasantly surprising to see that some cops understand some of the laws they are supposed to enforce are ineffectual and usually arbitrary. When it comes to the drug war, i hope more cops open their eyes to the bigger picture and treat non-violent addicts like human beings with serious disorders. Besides weed. That should be sold in liqour stores and alcohol should need a prescription
CLICKHEREx;12312571 said:
Indeed, the way laws are now, the police stance towards drugs is out of control and extreme. Everyone found to be associated with them is a dangerous dope fiend and guilty before any trial. Drug addicts are easy targets for real crimes like rape, assault and muggings, and to most people not worth the air they breathe.
A cop took a 20 dollar bill out of my front pocket once, said he could tell i was high because my eyes were pinned, although i spoke eloquently to him and tried to remain civil and polite despite being laughed at by two other cops. One called me a "regular smooth talkin street lawyer" when i asked him what i had done illegally. Truth is i was semi-loitering outside a house i was ABOUT to buy dope from...good thing i didnt. Even without junk on me it took a few cop cars worth of legit PIGS to stand around and laugh at my shitty life, possibly trying to motivate me with the same tough love their fathers must have used on them. As a fan of comedy, i even had to laugh when a younger cop with a brutally cruel sense of humor started joining the Roast of the Down-and-Out Junky. He was close to my age and kinda looked like me if i never asked questions in life and played sports in high school (besides cross country). As they took turns cracking jokes about my addiction, my scared demeanor, and my sucked-up looks, the young cop decided to go for the jugular with a burn that i have to admit was surprisingly clever and still makes me chuckle sometimes when i look back at the blatant 1984-ness of it all...i was pretty skinny at the time, an all around weakling with nothing but skin and bones making up most of my body, and 1% body fat hidden somewhere, i think on my shoulder? Anyway, i digress...as this group of sadistic cops who were obviously balls high on a power trip making fun of me and exchanging awful jokes about my involuntary anorexia were having a laugh break, the young one i mentioned earlier looks at my I.D. card and blurts out "130?! I've fucked HOT BITCHES that weigh more than that!" It was funny and original, i had to give him that. And i like to think he was just trying to motivate me by humiliating me, so in a fucked up way, i truly believe he meant well. Also, i am white. I expected special treatment like the liberal media is always talking about, but i had no sense of privilege. I was robbed of 20$ (which WAS for drugs to be fair, but the "crime" hadn't even been committed yet, so i ask anyone who might be on the fence still: when did the "innocent until proven guilty" policy in this country stop?!) I was then threatened to be thrown in jail if i showed my face in their town again. Again, i'm not sure of the legality of this situation either. Ive been clean for some time now, as of today i have two weeks following a short bender/mental breakdown last month. Before that i had almost made it to a year again. But even if im clean and doing good, am i still not allowed into their dumb backwards overpopulated farm town? Not even to pass through for work? I doubt they would even recognize me. I wonder how often those particular pigs get together during routine stops and find easy targets to fuck with like they did me. I left that situation feeling violated and with a feeling of extreme helplessness. I sometimes wonder how officer ----- spent my hard earned 20$. (i mowed lawns and did yardwork for that particular fortune) I hope he took his wife or girl out to dinner somewhere nice, like the outback, or olive garden. Or maybe he rolled it up and used it to snort confiscated coke that i wouldn't be surprised if he was stealing from evidence. They were all acting very intense, as if they were on steroids or some kind of stimulant. If they're already capable of stealing money, making illegal threats and intimidation, why would drug dealing/using cops be such a stretch of the imagination? These are the kinds of cops that require a thorough job review... But it's a worthless junkie's word against theirs, and they have much firmer handshakes and phonier smiles, i'm sure.