Consequences of the internet drug trade

[belligerent drunk]

making it "a click of a mouse away" fucks up the whole scene

See, this is where you and I (and a lot of other people) think differently. You like "the game" for whatever reason, you like playing it. I like getting high. If I can make the task more simple, I will go for it. And I truly believe I'm not alone and it's not only this way with drugs. That's why we have stores on every corner and things like Wal Mart or the equivalent - convenience. Of course, you can walk out of your house, walk 4 km, then hop on a bicycle, cycle 7 more km, meet up with a guy who gives you a 40 km ride, then hop on a train to get to a place where you can buy milk - if that's what you enjoy doing, then what the hell, right? Just do it. Some people, though, prefer walking around the corner and getting their milk from that corner store. Or whatever, it's just an analogy. Point is, "the scene" is not something everybody values. Why do people buy drugs? Is it for the social interactions, for the thrill, because they want to spend X amount of time moving around the city every day? No, I believe most people do it because they want to get high on said drugs.

 

[SKL]

for the umpteenth time the scene that gets fucked up is. not. just. the. end. user's.
if you are willing to put in the work you can have connections IRL or OL that are just as reliable
my only objection is that random civilians should not have that without putting in the work
that is what fucks up the scene. inviting the casuals, and thus the heat.
there was a healthy underground Internet drugs scene before Ulbricht. and it was comfy and worked fine.
Ulbricht, flinging open the doors, disrupted the natural order of things and thus sealed his fate
as for the fate of others this DarkNet shit is a fad that is going to end badly for everyone involved
the two essential elements of drug markets are, well, drugs and money
and for this shit to work out you need to exchange drugs and money and this is always a point of vulnerability
doing it on a mass scale at a retail level is just going to bring LE crackdowns on avenues to exchange drugs and money
which, in turn, will castrate the DarkNets but unfortunately will likely consequences for traditional markets as well
what's more the end user has other problems in that buying online is not as safe as he thinks it is
and particularly in that relying on such sources for drugs that one is addicted to is precarious
overall, though I think the "internet drug trade" is a wonderful metaphor, or microcosm, for a lot of what is fucked up about our postmodern society

 

[Felonious Monk]

^I get what you're saying there, but I feel like there's just something else you're mad about that you're transferring to this topic for some reason. Or do you not believe that prohibition is wrong?

Because the way I see it, the expansion of drug use to "normal people" who can "control their use" is the ONLY way for drug use to be normalized for larger society, and for all of us to enjoy decriminalization of drug use.

Think of it this way, in the 70s, when the average heroin user was a poor urban black male, nobody gave a shit, penalties were ridiculous, and treatment options were non-existent. In 2015, with the average heroin user looking more like a middle-upper class young white man, it's on the news everyday, penalties are being reconsidered, and treatment options are being expanded even for those who cannot afford a cent.

So please, continue explaining how breaking the taboo over drug use is a bad thing.

also I understand the low level street drug game is shitty for females
that's how it is, bring a man along even if he isn't your man

You're like 100% missing the point. Why should a woman HAVE TO bring a man to buy her recreational substances, like this is Saudi Arabia or some shit, when she could SAFELY buy them online? Isn't this America?

And... fuck the drug game and the scum who run it. Hell, after experiencing it, I even hope most of the California cannabis industry is razed in the regulation process. I would bet money that a good percentage of those corner boys you're defending because they need "need to support their family" would be just as happy to work in a licensed drug outlet making $15/hour and not have to worry about getting shot.

And here's another look at it--your point that "Do you actually believe there is no leva in your online coke?" Yes. I've never ordered but as Sid mentioned, the internet has given niche markets more power, such as free trade conflict free cocaine and heroin.
http://theconversation.com/fair-tra...ium-the-future-of-online-drug-marketing-30127

 

[SKL]

You're like 100% missing the point. Why should a woman HAVE TO bring a man to buy her recreational substances, like this is Saudi Arabia or some shit, when she could SAFELY buy them online? Isn't this America?

lower down in my post I said that she wouldn't have to worry about that or bring a man if she dealt with legit people
and yes that women get shit in the drug business is completely deplorable
but it's the state of things
the internet by introducing a layer of anonymity can help this of course
but by the very fact of introducing that layer of anonymity causes other problems

And... fuck the drug game and the scum who run it. Hell, after experiencing it, I even hope most of the California cannabis industry is razed in the regulation process.

oh hell yes. they are another mob that is making it bad for the little guy btw.

I would bet money that a good percentage of those corner boys you're defending because they need "need to support their family" would be just as happy to work in a licensed drug outlet making $15/hour and not have to worry about getting shot.

yeah, but we don't live in that world (yet?)

And here's another look at it--your point that "Do you actually believe there is no leva in your online coke?" Yes. I've never ordered but as Sid mentioned, the internet has given niche markets more power, such as free trade conflict free cocaine and heroin.
http://theconversation.com/fair-tra...ium-the-future-of-online-drug-marketing-30127

if leva free coke is really available online, I retract my statement and am duly impressed
(although I would wonder about the legitimacy of some of the reviews/analyses ... that's a rabbit hole that could go pretty deep)
additionally, if it exists, I would to buy some (even though I don't do drugs anymore)
but would never buy drugs online from some random person not known to me, just on general principle
it's sketchy IMO, when I looked at those sites, did not a comfortable feeling at all
a kind of europe-before-the-death-of-franz-ferdinand feeling
everything seems chill but undercurrent of tensions
and the shit is about to hit the fan in a big way
just my 2¢ as an observer and color commentator no longer in the game who's seen a lot of shit go down IRL and OL alike

 

[SmokingAces]

You didn't reply to my last post. Is that because it doesn't support your bullshit argument?

for the umpteenth time the scene that gets fucked up is. not. just. the. end. user's.
if you are willing to put in the work you can have connections IRL or OL that are just as reliable
my only objection is that random civilians should not have that without putting in the work
that is what fucks up the scene. inviting the casuals, and thus the heat.
there was a healthy underground Internet drugs scene before Ulbricht. and it was comfy and worked fine.
Ulbricht, flinging open the doors, disrupted the natural order of things and thus sealed his fate
as for the fate of others this DarkNet shit is a fad that is going to end badly for everyone involved
the two essential elements of drug markets are, well, drugs and money
and for this shit to work out you need to exchange drugs and money and this is always a point of vulnerability
doing it on a mass scale at a retail level is just going to bring LE crackdowns on avenues to exchange drugs and money
which, in turn, will castrate the DarkNets but unfortunately will likely consequences for traditional markets as well
what's more the end user has other problems in that buying online is not as safe as he thinks it is
and particularly in that relying on such sources for drugs that one is addicted to is precarious
overall, though I think the "internet drug trade" is a wonderful metaphor, or microcosm, for a lot of what is fucked up about our postmodern society

It's pretty clear from how much you speak but how little you listen you have no real clue. "it's going to end badly"? Maybe for those who didn't use the proper encryption, or take the necessary measures to stay safe. But try telling "it's going to end badly" to the vendors who have 10K+ sales over various markets and are very likely millionaires by now.

"two essential elements to drug dealing are drugs and money"... No drug dealer lived quietly to tell the tale without taking security/safety measures. OPSEC if you've heard the term is pretty important in the world of drug dealing in general. I would argue your big sellers online are taking more security measures than most IRL sellers the same size as them. I know someone who was fairly high up in the coke game was using phonecalls to arrange bulk deals. Security, and having a market to sell to are two things these online suppliers have on lock down compared to IRL dealers.

If you are seriously suggesting that after millions of sales worldwide now (worth noting drug marketplaces have been going on longer than the darknet has existed) that the Darknet and online dealing is about to somehow disappear in a puff of smoke, you are full of nonsense. Asian counterfeit pharma sellers are even utilizing facebook these days. Where there is a will there is a way. If you think LE could just pull the plug on DNM's overnight you my friend are very misguided as to how the internet works.

With the evolution of technology, it is only going to be used more and more by drug cartels/syndicates to ship drugs across the world. You personally might not like it but that is the truth.

 

[SKL]

LOL @ thinking that encryption and OPSEC will save you
Schneier's "Trust the Math" indeed but not the structure behind it
and he said nothing about trusting the postal service
I don't expect the plug to be pulled in one moment
but I expect a lot of people who are very smug right now about their safety to be doing really extended bids as guests of the state
and yes I actually do know a great deal about what I'm talking about and I have no need to demonstrate that to you
(as I said in the other thread)

 

[nau5ea]

qft

If you can't party with other users then you might as well try to give your computer IV dope through the power cord

thats signature material

 

[SmokingAces]

Well if you use someone you know who doesn't take drugs address.. don't tell them what's in the package.. encrypt the address and never access Tor from your own ISP, use Tails etc to wipe your machine, provided you don't fuck any of that up I struggle to see how that makes the darknet not as good as local.

Locally you could be arrested meeting the dealer much easier. The quality is unlikely to be as good. There is less chance of your complaint being taken seriously - if your dealing with real criminals selling class A drugs. Your probably much more likely to get killed either by a rogue batch of drugs or a rogue bunch of people your involved with. I don't like to be involved with hardened criminals personally.

Your argument is so biased your not really making any objective points worth noting. Just typing a load of nonsensical rubbish picking holes where there aren't any because of your own lack of understanding. You might aswell have just made your first post "I don't like this it's stupid" and left it at that.

I do think the markets are a flawed concept but not for any of the reasons you've highlighted or seem likely to get to. The main flaw in buying online is trust, your dealing with anonymous senders, so doing your homework and vetting your source is crucial if you don't want it all to go wrong from the beginning. It's still not enough of a flaw, to make the traditional method with it's many more flaws any more appealing. Props to you and your incredible contacts, that still can't get clean drugs.

 

[SKL]

Well if you use someone you know who doesn't take drugs address.. don't tell them what's in the package..

This is a great way to endanger your friends freedom or at least give them a dilemma of whether to rat you out.

Don't think LE would buy that it was an accident/wrong address for a second.

encrypt the address and never access Tor from your own ISP, use Tails etc to wipe your machine, provided you don't fuck any of that up I struggle to see how that makes the darknet not as good as local.

These security measures have a place. And I do not argue that the darknet is "not as good as local" for the end user. I argue that the presence of the end user will inevitably destabilize things which (a) leads to problems in the wider drug world and (b) makes the darknet markets themselves unstable.

Also, if LE wants you in a big way, they will get you eventually because even if the math/tech is perfect you will fuck something up or the developers of your software and hardware fucked something up.

I do think the markets are a flawed concept but not for any of the reasons you've highlighted or seem likely to get to. The main flaw in buying online is trust, your dealing with anonymous senders, so doing your homework and vetting your source is crucial if you don't want it all to go wrong from the beginning.

On this we absolutely agree. Another way to express this is that in these large open markets you're dealing with not only anonymous entities but anonymous entities with whom you lack a relationship. This was not the case in older online markets. The reason for this is that the large open markets are, in fact, open. Q.E.D.

It's still not enough of a flaw, to make the traditional method with it's many more flaws any more appealing. Props to you and your incredible contacts, that still can't get clean drugs.

I don't have any contacts. I don't do drugs anymore. I don't buy drugs anymore. I don't sell drugs anympore. I am just a color commentator and call it like I see it. I looked at some of the darknet markets out of a kind of journalistic interest and was appaled by what I saw.

A lot of people are misconstruing what I'm saying here and maybe I'm not expressing it very well. I'm arguing for the traditional way of doing things (which includes buying drugs online amongst circles of trust that are created for that purpose, which is more or less the traditional thing, just done over the Internet ... but not massive open online markets) because it is more stable, has a human element, and also out of a fundamental conservatism which is a good approach to take when one's life, freedom and wealth are at stake.

 

[SmokingAces]

This is a great way to endanger your friends freedom or at least give them a dilemma of whether to rat you out.

Don't think LE would buy that it was an accident/wrong address for a second.

Was purely hypothetical and also they would because there is a thing called plausible deniability, with no proof they would have no case. I think half the problem in this debate is your in the U.S? And can't fathom that not everywhere else operates the way the US law enforcement do.

These security measures have a place. And I do not argue that the darknet is "not as good as local" for the end user. I argue that the presence of the end user will inevitably destabilize things which (a) leads to problems in the wider drug world and (b) makes the darknet markets themselves unstable.

Also, if LE wants you in a big way, they will get you eventually because even if the math/tech is perfect you will fuck something up or the developers of your software and hardware fucked something up.

No local is not as good as the darknet. I'm telling you from someone who's used both, who unlike yourself isn't biased. There are more pro's:cons with the DN than there are local. Problems in the drugs world? The main problem in the drug world is prohibition. Your starting to sound like a middleman who's lost his cut.

On this we absolutely agree. Another way to express this is that in these large open markets you're dealing with not only anonymous entities but anonymous entities with whom you lack a relationship. This was not the case in older online markets. The reason for this is that the large open markets are, in fact, open. Q.E.D

Yes if you buy drugs and forget you are dealing with drug dealers online or IRL then you are pretty stupid. You wouldn't just walk up to the guy with the cheapest dope IRL and be like "hey yo", you would do some homework to see is this character safe. That is necessary any and everytime buying drugs if you value your own safety. Same with testing the drugs before indulging.

I don't have any contacts. I don't do drugs anymore. I don't buy drugs anymore. I don't sell drugs anympore. I am just a color commentator and call it like I see it. I looked at some of the darknet markets out of a kind of journalistic interest and was appaled by what I saw.

A lot of people are misconstruing what I'm saying here and maybe I'm not expressing it very well. I'm arguing for the traditional way of doing things (which includes buying drugs online amongst circles of trust that are created for that purpose, which is more or less the traditional thing, just done over the Internet ... but not massive open online markets) because it is more stable, has a human element, and also out of a fundamental conservatism which is a good approach to take when one's life, freedom and wealth are at stake.

I get what you are saying, that there should be some preconceived connection already there, before drugs are exchanged. Whilst part of me agree's do you really know all that much detail about the guy you buy your coke/heroin/mdma off on the street? Probably not in most cases. The point I am trying to make to you is the chances of meeting an undercover fed and being part of a sting is probably greater IRL than it is on DNM's. The quality is better on the whole, and there are numerous platforms to complain. You seem like you are knowledgeable but are choosing to be stubborn here rather than actually learning, I've learnt the ropes on both sides. There is no two ways about it procuring illegals can be risky, but I would say much less risk and unwanted attention buying online. I do miss the old human element of the old days for sure (still exists where weed is concerned), but LE spoiled that with mass surveillance and phone tapping.

 

[SKL]

Was purely hypothetical and also they would because there is a thing called plausible deniability, with no proof they would have no case. I think half the problem in this debate is your in the U.S? And can't fathom that not everywhere else operates the way the US law enforcement do.

True and we ran into this localization problem in the other thread we are arguing in too

There have been cases I've seen reported in the media where, e.g. a bunch of weed was shipped to someone innocent third party, they got raided, they "got away with it" (having done nothing in the first place) ... in one case it was the mayor of the town and, IIRC, his dog got shot ... but here I'm pretty sure that in a case like you describe LE would be able to exert sufficient leverage to cause the third party significant problems. They're not stupid, after all.

No local is not as good as the darknet. I'm telling you from someone who's used both, who unlike yourself isn't biased. There are more pro's:cons with the DN than there are local. Problems in the drugs world? The main problem in the drug world is prohibition.

I've never used the open "darknet" as the term is understood today, and everything I say is about that. Just want to make that clear again. And of course the main problem is prohibition. No arguments there.

Your starting to sound like a middleman who's lost his cut.

Well as I said I'm not involved in anything anymore, but who stands up for the middleman?

To put it less facetiously, not only does a certain class of operator lose business, but eliminating a whole tier of the pyramid is problematic in any number of ways. Introduces a lot more entropy.

Yes if you buy drugs and forget you are dealing with drug dealers online or IRL then you are pretty stupid. You wouldn't just walk up to the guy with the cheapest dope IRL and be like "hey yo", you would do some homework to see is this character safe. That is necessary any and everytime buying drugs if you value your own safety. Same with testing the drugs before indulging.

This is a good analogy, but I would have trouble trusting anyone that I didn't communicate with considerably more than just submitting an order and waiting for it to arrive as if I was buying on eBay, even if their reviews or whatever were great.

I get what you are saying, that there should be some preconceived connection already there, before drugs are exchanged. Whilst part of me agree's do you really know all that much detail about the guy you buy your coke/heroin/mdma off on the street? Probably not in most cases.

Maybe or maybe not, but you can look him in the eye, shake his hand, and shake him down if he rips you off, and he has an interest in keeping you satisfied for repeat business which is larger than that of an Internet vendor (unless you're buying bulk I would assume)

The point I am trying to make to you is the chances of meeting an undercover fed and being part of a sting is probably greater IRL than it is on DNM's.

Probably true

The quality is better on the whole, and there are numerous platforms to complain.

Probably true. I still don't really wrap my mind around how the escrow thing is supposed to work. And having platforms to complain, I would assume there is a lot of space for shilling and for anonymously denigrating your competition. I'd take any reviews other than by people I have some basis to trust with a big grain of Lot's wife.

You seem like you are knowledgeable but are choosing to be stubborn here rather than actually learning

Yes. I do want the kids of my damn lawn

But no, I do find this stuff interesting.

I've learnt the ropes on both sides. There is no two ways about it procuring illegals can be risky, but I would say much less risk and unwanted attention buying online. I do miss the old human element of the old days for sure (still exists where weed is concerned), but LE spoiled that with mass surveillance and phone tapping.

They'll spoil the darknet too, trust me. And there will be a lot of collateral damage. The proto-darknet was a great thing. This new stuff, not so much. Too much heat, too much entropy.

 

[SmokingAces]

You've made more sense with that last post than the rest of them combined. I can now relate and see a lot of your points for sure. Do I agree it's a shame the local scene suffers? Not really because even the dealers who sorted me good quality at good prices were scumbags by nature in the end.

We will chat about this further later but I've got stuff to do just now.

Erscow is like how eBay operates with PayPal. That said it doesn't stop thieving marketplace owners running away with the loot every couple of months haha.

The people who will spoil the darknet are the ungreatfuls, kids with no sense of appreciation of what's in front of them who take everything for granted. Much the same as the people who spoil the scene everywhere else

 

[Dresden]

I agree with SKL about people currently being a tad bit cockily smug about the darknet's purported fool proof anonymity. It may be largely secure now, but what about in 5 or 10 years? As I understand it, most everything you do on a computer--especially on the internet!--leaves a permanent record somewhere, and encryption isn't foolproof either. The U.S. government invented the internet, and I would imagine they know how to tap into it as well. I do not underestimate the NSA, or the FBI for that matter. Just sayin'.

 

[AnanasBannana]

It's something I want to get into. Most dealers I deal with are dodgy assholes, I'd rather deal with no one and get a product that is reviewed and verified.

 

[DoesntLearn]

Having drugs come through the mail seems to sketchy to me. I would rather go to my local guy for whatever product i want. Some drugs took time to be able to get cheap and quality, also i had to become a well liked person and became friends with the higher ups which resulted in being able to sometimes even get some for free and always have it tested in front of me. Also if i need something for a certain date but am low on money and cant spare any until a later date i could have some fronted to me until i have the spare money to pay up. Time and trust. That mainly had to do with lsd and mdma.

As for drugs like heroin, sure there can be tons of great reviews from over time on someone product, same as in real life, but theres always a chance of getting something garbage, also with the internet you could have your package snatched up by the law or whatever. That can be seen the same as being pulled over or whatever, but i trust going to someone locally that i built a relationship with over time more than trusting other peoples opinions on some anon guy online.

Both ways have their pros and cons but i prefer knowing the person and building a friendship and trust with someone in real life over trusting some random guy online. Also as someone else said, i would rather support my local market over helping some random corporation.