Dissociatives [Combo Subthread] Ketamine & Benzodiazepines

[explorer83]

In medical situations they use benzos with ketamine to suppress any "emergent" phenomena (the ketamine experience) when the K is wearing off.

It's no surprise that taking a benzo with K decreases the trip.

That's right, I have read that. They basically erase their memory so kids don't experience the k trip.

 

[lovebrisvegas]

remembering a k-hole is hard enough geez haha

yet alone any decent peak psychedelic experience

 

[swilow]

The combo has nothing in common with the K + Alcohol combo, which IS rather messy and negative.
.

I just meant for people non-tolerant to benzo's; a high dose of valium would have a similar, spin-inducing effect combined with ketamine. Plus a similar amneisiac effect would be induced by alcohol....

Though, as with you, that hasn't happened to me.

 

[any major dude]

when benzo's are used with ket or ket-like drugs in surgery things like heart & breathing rate are closely monitored, in recreational settings this is not the case. The combination can cause respiratory failure. I know personally of one incident in which reasonable doses of ketamine & alprazolam were taken and the individual actually died.

 

[bighooter]

you wont k hole no matter how much k you take if you got valium in your system

a couple months ago when i went on a mad-un I was taking valium everyday and whenever i took Ketamine I never felt any psychedelic effects.

 

[Jamshyd]

I just meant for people non-tolerant to benzo's; a high dose of valium would have a similar, spin-inducing effect combined with ketamine. Plus a similar amneisiac effect would be induced by alcohol....

Though, as with you, that hasn't happened to me.

I was not challenging you, I was challenging Erowid.

 

[K1nGp1N]

i heard somewhere that benzos close the mind, psychedellics open them. maybe thats short for a good explaination

 

[Jamshyd]

^ Ketamine is not a psychedelic drug, it is a Dissociative Anaesthetic which, in a way, is the mirror-opposite of a psychedelic.

I was able to remain open-minded to everything (even more so for kinky sex) while on valium.

In short, I have no frinkin' clue what you're talin' about .

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Precisely.

Having been a benzo addict (clean for more than a year now! ),

Good job man! I've been clean from heroin for over a year now too. Congratulations and keep up the good work!

^ Ketamine is not a psychedelic drug, it is a Dissociative Anaesthetic which, in a way, is the mirror-opposite of a psychedelic.

You don't think Ketamine has any psychedelic properties to it?

I think the psychedelic properties of K come out more with IM doses and possibly insuffulating it, whereas IV Ketamine is obviously more about the dissociative nature, and is more similar to nitrous.

 

[Jamshyd]

And congratulations to you too! I appreciate the kind words

I tend to reserve the word "psychedelic" strictly for classic 5-HT2a psychedelics - LSD, DPT & co. For me, the word is associated with a flood of sensory and pre-sensory information.

Ketamine, on the other hand, does the exact opposite: it cuts off sensory input.

Don't get me wrong though - Ketamine is most definitely entheogenic. It is also insightful and therapeutic. MORE so than psychedelics IMO and IME. So Ketamine can definitely achieve a lot of things that psychedelic can (and more, again IME), but through opposite means.

 

[NeuroDr]

That's right, I have read that. They basically erase their memory so kids don't experience the k trip.

You guys got ketamine as kids?! I've still never been given ketamine afaik

 

[Solipsis]

On the one hand I agree that the contraindication is unfounded, but still in an ideal situation I would avoid all GABAergic drugs when using K (at least racemic or S-ketamine), if not then limiting the dose...

This is what all my mixing has told me, despite the notion that ketamine can be unremarkable when taken on its own and lends itself perfectly to augment something else even in lower doses!

 

[explorer83]

You guys got ketamine as kids?! I've still never been given ketamine afaik

I don't think that it's common, but it is still used in medicine as an anasthetic in certain patients b/c it doesn't affect respiratory and circulatory system as much, I believe.

 

[Shambles]

As far as I know it's still often the first choice of anaesthesia for very young children and also in emergency/trauma type incidents here in the UK as it's so physically benign with relatively few serious interactions. Also tends to keep the injured individual quiet and distracted for a while

 

[MyExcuse]

To add what shambles said, here in the U.S. over 200 hospitals are approved to use ketamine for sedation of children. I believe they could use it on anyone, but I doubt that is as common as it's use in children.

Supposedly, young children don't experience emergence phenomena as often as adults and older kids, probably 12+. It's an ideal anesthetic because it doesn't require intubation (although I'm sure they still intubate as a precaution). It's also on the WHO's list of necessary drugs to run a hospital.

 

[Dragynfyr]

Pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic interactions between ketamine and diazepam.
Idvall J, Aronsen KF, Stenberg P, Paalzow L.

Anaesthesia with continuous i.v. ketamine and 65% nitrous oxide in oxygen was given to a total of 49 patients undergoing major abdominal surgery. A control group was premedicated with atropine and other groups received in addition rectal diazepam or clorazepate i.v. For further patients had been on oral diazepam or barbiturates for 1-14 years; as premedication they received atropine alone. The anaesthetic technique gave good operative conditions in the 4 groups of patients. The haemodynamic stimulation of ketamine was significantly reduced in patients premedicated with diazepam. Psychotomimetic side effects were not prominent in any of the groups. Patients premedicated with diazepam required a lower rate of ketamine infusion as compared to controls during the initial 30 min of anaesthesia. The patients in the other groups did not differ from the control group in this respect. There were large differences in metabolic pattern between the groups. As compared to the controls, the patients on long-term diazepam or barbiturates had high concentrations of hydroxylated metabolites, with levels higher than that of norketamine. The patients pretreated with diazepam had very low plasma levels of hydroxylated metabolites. Clorazepate premedication did not significantly affect the metabolism of ketamine. The biological half-life of ketamine was significantly increased in the diazepam-treated group, and it was shortened in those on long term treatment with barbiturates or diazepam.
*****************************

I was just reading elsewhere and spotted something about diazepam inhibiting ketamine metabolism. It looks like this is saying you can't be a regular diazepam user though to get the longer lasting effects? It looks like being on diaz regularly could even cut down on the over all flight time? (am I reading that right?) Interesting..

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Absolutely not.

Ketamine does not depress breathing the same way Benzos and Opiates do, and for all intents and purposes, its respiratory depression is negligible.

Benzos do cause repiratory depression with opiates or alcohol, but on their own their respiratory depression is also negligible (that is also why it is so difficult to OD on benzos by themselves).

Mixing K and benzos is actually standard medical practise. It is used as such both to increase sedation and to decrease Ketamine's dissociative effects.

IME, mixing the two leads to a lot more memory loss. They aren't particularly fun in combination, and I see no point in doing so recreationally because it is such a waste a precious K.

Thanks Jamshyd, I'll save the temazepam for after the ketamine. %)

 

[Zulualphakilo]

Had my first experience with diazepam last night started with 20mg which made me quite disoriented already (bottle of wine included). Then I decided to try some ket too just a normal sized line, woke up 7 hours later feeling disappointed I've missed out on it all! Any advice on how to or even if I should mix the two? Would like to try diazepam again as heard great reviews from it.

 

[Tranced]

I'd say there's a good chance of that combo knocking most people out. My only advice is: use much less of everything.

I've mixed ketamine with benzos loads of times, and never had any problems, but then again they don't make me tired, so I'm a bit weird like that. Comoletely different story if I threw a bottle of wine in with them.

 

[Zulualphakilo]

I'd say there's a good chance of that combo knocking most people out. My only advice is: use much less of everything.

I've mixed ketamine with benzos loads of times, and never had any problems, but then again they don't make me tired, so I'm a bit weird like that. Comoletely different story if I threw a bottle of wine in with them.

Thanks for the fast reply! I'll maybe cut the Valium out of my night tonight and stick to just the k and wine, then when I need to sleep maybe throw 10mg of Valium in the mix.