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Codeine & CWE Megathread: Version II - [insert witty title]

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My first few times doing codeine i did 400mg (384mg CWE'd) and it was great but never got a solid nod also , so I just went and did 30mg DXM , 600mg codeine and smoked weed after and it was pretty intense . Have done the DXM with codeine and weed with 400mg also and have got a pretty solid nod . Also if ur aiming for the nod , sedative antihistamines a the way to go , I've read that Restavit (doxylamine) is very sedative and increases euphoria , there's also promethazine which is quite sedative but some people don't like what it does to the high . But definetly take 30-60mg DXM 45-60 mins before , then smoke a bit of weed 20 or 30 mins after and smoke cigarettes if u smoke .
 
Got 3 kilos of seeds and 1.16 grams of codeine to eat tonight fellas. Wish me luck.
 
^ Good luck, I hope you don't spew.

Promethazine should take care of that.

Also, how much would an opiate tolerance drop in say a week? If hypothetically I was smoking heroin on sunday... but casual codeine use prior.
 
Goddamnit, I extracted 480mg in the most careful way I ever have. Warm water, slow cool, ice bath, tshirt strain, coffee filter 15 minutes prior to consuming I sublingually consumed 40mg of Temaz and I've gotten fuckall off it. Sure, it's had an effect but really bugger all. Oh and I also had 50mg of restavit.

Last consumed codeine 3+ weeks ago. I had 20mg of Temaz way earlier today for the first time in over 2 months. So I'm certain there are no tolerance issues.

I have been using 100mg of Restavit the last two nights for sleep though. 50mg of Restavit does nothing for me.

Do I just have some stuuupid high tolerance to everything? I've always consumed tripple the amount of weed as my friends whilst remaining the least stoned (tolorence factors with that though, but even though I only smoke once a week now I can still far "outsmoke" my daily smoker friends).

SO ANNOYING!!!!

I don't get how just once codeine has knocked my socks off, or at least took me by surprise as to how well it worked. I think the dose was 320mg. Grr!

I've used oxys about 10 times over the last 3 years and found 30mg to be a nice noddy zone and from what I can gather thats a bit high for someone with no tolerance. Gotta get onto this DXM potentiation I think...

Now for a cig looking out over the cities lights... Thanks guys, great thread!
 
Does anybody think that crushing up Instant Release tablets seems redundant for a CWE? I mean, for nurofen brands it might be useful because of the outer coating, but what about panadeine extra brands? It'd be alot easier and quicker for me if I didn't have to crush them up in a mortar and pestle.


I am glad you brought this up.

I made a post about this in the old thread and it is a really important issue so I'll pots here as well.

The panadeine extra tabs that dissolve with bubbling due to release of CO2 gas are not CWE-able.

These tablets are designed to not only speed up the rate at which the tablet breaks apart in water, they also increase the solubility the paracetamol in the tabs. I'm not sure if the change in ph plays a role here but the simple in crease in volume to surface area ratio afforded by the violent chemical reaction that ensue once water has been added to the tablets would have to increase the amount paracetamol that ends up in solution.

Another type that can't be CWE'd is preparations that contain lysine salts of ibuprofen. These lysine salts are very soluble in water and are not CWE-able at all.
 
I mentioned that this brand "panadeine extra" isnt CWE-able in the last thread towards the end of it. It dissolved so well that when filtered nothing was actually caught in the filter. Had to throw it out :S Now we know why, thanks for summing that up.
 
^ Panadeine Extra? I've never heard of problems with CWE'ing it, are you sure you and Sonny Jim aren't talking about the Panadeine Rapid Soluble, I mentioned ages ago in the last thread that these definitely aren't appropriate for a CWE. The pack looks somewhat similar to Panadeine Extra but I imagine you'd have to really not be looking at what you are getting to switch them up.

I never get the Panadeine Extra or the generic of that as it doesn't seem cost effective, prices may be different in other's locales though.

Nozphexezora said:
Does anybody think that crushing up Instant Release tablets seems redundant for a CWE? I mean, for nurofen brands it might be useful because of the outer coating, but what about panadeine extra brands? It'd be alot easier and quicker for me if I didn't have to crush them up in a mortar and pestle.

I only ever crushed Nurofen + or if I got the Mersyndol brand or similar tabsule-type tablets I will crush them as they take a long time to dissolve. Most other brands need no crushing, they will dissolve fairly quickly.

Sonny Jim said:
These tablets are designed to not only speed up the rate at which the tablet breaks apart in water, they also increase the solubility the paracetamol in the tabs. I'm not sure if the change in ph plays a role here but the simple in crease in volume to surface area ratio afforded by the violent chemical reaction that ensue once water has been added to the tablets would have to increase the amount paracetamol that ends up in solution.

I believe that the anion of paracetamol is more water soluble; there is an increase in pH that allows some of the anion to form and increase solubility, and as you say the effervescent action also exposes the paracetamol to a greater surface area which helps with solubility. I believe that most of the paracetamol is dispersed rather then dissolved, I have not personally consumed these tablets though.

Sonny Jim said:
Another type that can't be CWE'd is preparations that contain lysine salts of ibuprofen. These lysine salts are very soluble in water and are not CWE-able at all.

I have never seen an ibuprofen/codeine combination that uses the lysine salt of ibuprofen. I have only seen ibuprofen lysine used for those pointless, basically a rip-off variations on Nurofen such as 'Nurofen Migraine', 'Nurofen Period Pain' etc...

Sustanon: About the exercise increasing your high; I remember a while ago people talking about how codeine seemed to hit them harder after they had been doing exercise or physical labor for a while and I think it has to do with endorphins as you said. If only I did more exercise... ;)
 
yes sorry I think I do mean rapid soluble but really I am talking about any preparations designed to kick in more quickly. It was in response to someone who was talking about tablets that rapidly dissolve in water/

I have never seen the lysine salts/codeine combo either but I read a report (might have been on BL) about someone ODing on ibuprofen because of it.

I actually just found the old thread and I see your post at the end saying you had not ever heard of this combo. I can't find one one google either. Though I am not going to say that they don't exist, who knows :)
 
^ There isn't a 'rapid' codeine and acetaminophen combination, if by rapid you mean those normal tablets that are just designed to kick in somewhat faster. There is a Panadeine 'Rapid Soluble' combination that is water soluble (like soluble aspirin, if you are familiar with that), and is not safe to use for a CWE.

Sonny Jim said:
I actually just found the old thread and I see your post at the end saying you had not ever heard of this combo. I can't find one one google either. Though I am not going to say that they don't exist, who knows :)

Well we should keep our eyes open and we see such a product bring it up on here in it's own thread due to the dangers. Keep in mind that they have to indicate on the front of the pack that it is the lysine salt of ibuprofen, that is it will say 'ibuprofen lysine xxx mg equivalent to ibuprofen 200mg' on the front of the packet where the active ingredients are.
 
Sustanon: About the exercise increasing your high; I remember a while ago people talking about how codeine seemed to hit them harder after they had been doing exercise or physical labor for a while and I think it has to do with endorphins as you said. If only I did more exercise... ;)

Was more specifically referring to stretching + opiates. They synergize so well with eachother, takes it to a whole new level for me. Was just curious if anyone else has noticed this. I'm realizing things that I never knew or heard of before, the sad thing is im always on codeine so nearly every night is an experiment for me LOL
 
I'm quite sure if the brand is effervescent they're required to label it as being effervescent. If that's not the case, then it wouldn't be much of a marketing advantage if you made an affervescent product and didn't label it as such.
 
I do notice when I'm on opiates and I can run further when I go for a jog. Less pain slowing me down maybe? Never really noticed it kicking them in again though.
 
.....I believe that the anion of paracetamol is more water soluble; there is an increase in pH that allows some of the anion to form and increase solubility, and as you say the effervescent action also exposes the paracetamol to a greater surface area which helps with solubility. I believe that most of the paracetamol is dispersed rather then dissolved, I have not personally consumed these tablets though.......

Hmm, how could the paracetamol molecule somehow become negatively charge? The only way could be a rxn bonding a negatively charged species with the molecule. Non of the metabolites go through this process. I'm not quite sure what you mean here!

In fact, paracetamol itself is rather non-polar (aka, is immiscible with water). Which is not to say there is no charge, the charge itself is just balanced over the entire molecule.

In terms of solvents/solutes and solubilities, the common mantra "like dissolves like" is used. Water (being the best solvent in the world) is polar, hence it is most effective on other polar (dipoles, induced dipoles, H-bonding) compounds. Non-polar best dissolves non-polar. In this instance, in chemistry non-polar compounds such as ethanol or dimethyl- is often used. "STP" or "standard temperature and pressure" are also the first starting point of compounds like these as both of these play a role in intermolecular forces, saturation points, etc.


warning: tl;dr.....

Are you saying this "anion" property in relation to the it causing (anion gap) metabolic acidosis? If so, it's not (afaik) true that paracetamol (or any of it's metabolites) are negatively charged, nor that this is the cause of toxicity.

Without getting to much into the pharmacology/chemistry here as it's more appropriate in the Adv.DD but ….. this disorder - basically acidosis - is cause by the an excess of anions, in this case an excess of acidity in blood serum, this in tern caused by the interference of the body's bicarbonate buffering system and hence a reduction in bicarbonate. The loss of bicarbonate in this case is due to (in those predisposed - those pregnant, diabetic, chronic drug/alcohol use, those who are liver impaired, concomitant use of some drugs, etc) an accumulation of a pyroglutamic acid, which usually would be removed by glutathione (required for the removal of free-radicals, essentially a detoxification agent). This is basically all caused by the covalently (I highlighted 'covalent' to show there's no dipole/* interaction. That is, no polarity) bonding of one of the paracetamol metabolites to glutathione, preventing action, and creating an accumulation of the pyroglutamic acid.

In fact, this is the why the prep. is produced as a salt - mixed with HCl causing a neutral[ish] drug. Aka, no overall charge.

If this isn't what you were getting at M_B, disregard :) Otherwise, lets that this into ADD since I'm not sure how appropriate it would be here.


These are the few papers I'm getting my info from. Regardless, they're quite interesting re paracetamol and heptatoxicity.

Paracetamol use and high anion gap metabolic acidosis - http://journal.ics.ac.uk/pdf/1301054.pdf (pretty easy to read!)

ACETAMINOPHEN-INDUCED HEPATOTOXICITY - http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/31/12/1499.full

Mechanisms of Acetaminophen-Induced Liver Necrosis - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2836803/

Increased resistance to acetaminophen hepatotoxicity in mice lacking glutathione S-transferase Pi - http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12741.full.pdf (extremely heavy!)



-Tyrael





edit : the MOA of paracetamol, the MOA of toxicity and the adduct of the paracetamol metabolites and glutathione are obviously afaik. forgive me if it's slightly off, it's rather late a night. additionally, there is a lot which still isn't known.
 
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Having said all that, just came across this which is quite interesting!….

Loss of mitochondrial or nuclear ion balance has also been suggested to be a toxic mechanism involved in acetaminophen-mediated cell death since either of these losses can lead to increases in cytosolic Ca2+ concentrations, mitochondrial Ca2+ cycling, activation of proteases and endonucleases, and DNA strand breaks (Nelson, 1990; Ray et al., 1993; Salas and Corcoran, 1997). The effect of the addition of NAPQI on isolated mitochondria has been reported (Weis et al., 1992) and inhibition of mitochondrial respiration has been investigated as an important mechanism in acetaminophen toxicity (Donnelly et al., 1994).
Although it doesn't exactly explain the pathway which leads to an ion increase, nor what other ions - assuming K+ and Na+ additionally with the Calcium would be a fair bet. Or possibly the intermediate electron transports like ATD+ or NAD+ in the mitochondria? :\ Just speculation here though.

Edit: in fact "Mechanisms of Acetaminophen-Induced Liver Necrosis" eludes to this possibility.

Also, there does exist an external source of pyroglutamic acid which could be taken concurrently,prophylactically if one is really worried about paracetamol toxicity - L-pyroglutamic acid (PCA). Keep in mind what I've mentioned about is just one modality of damage caused by excessive use.
 
Damn Tyrael, I'm almost too sick for science right now. ;)

From pH 8 and upwards, the acetaminophen molecule starts to become ionized at the 4-hydroxyl functional group. Keep raising the pH and you'll find a pKa of ~ 9.5, where you have 50% non-ionized molecule and 50% where that hydroxyl group has lost a H+, making it an anion.

tyrael said:
In fact, paracetamol itself is rather non-polar (aka, is immiscible with water).

The polarity of a molecule refers, as you note, to the distribution of charge over the entire molecule and whether there are (relatively) highly electronegative atoms whose partial charge gives rise to a polar molecule. But I am referring to the charge of a molecule at different pH ranges, whether it loses or gains protons (H+) and in this case it's effect on solubility. This is different to the partial charge of polarity.

tyrael said:
Are you saying this "anion" property in relation to the it causing (anion gap) metabolic acidosis? If so, it's not (afaik) true that paracetamol (or any of it's metabolites) are negatively charged, nor that this is the cause of toxicity.

Not at all, if you go back and read my posts you will see I was talking about it's charge in solutions of differing pH in relation to it's solubility, particularly in relation to effervescent/'soluble' paracetamol products. :)

tyrael said:
Although it doesn't exactly explain the pathway which leads to an ion increase, nor what other ions - assuming K+ and Na+ additionally with the Calcium would be a fair bet. Or possibly the intermediate electron transports like ATD+ or NAD+ in the mitochondria? Just speculation here though.

NAPQI (toxic metabolite of APAP) is very reactive, and as well as depleting glutathione does direct damage to hepatic cells via reactions with proteins and nucleic acids; I would assume that there is a break down of the cell's mechanisms for keeping ions at the right proportions across the cell membrane, and that this along with other damage is what leads to the death of liver cells during a paracetamol overdose.
 
Damn Tyrael, I'm almost too sick for science right now. ;)
.....

Know the feeling brother!

.....From pH 8 and upwards, the acetaminophen molecule starts to become ionized at the 4-hydroxyl functional group. Keep raising the pH and you'll find a pKa of ~ 9.5, where you have 50% non-ionized molecule and 50% where that hydroxyl group has lost a H+, making it an anion.....

Ah, that's a bit better. Well explained M_B.

(I do realised I went on a tangent before ey! More for my own research there =D)
 
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