Benzos Clonazepam vs. diazepam (dosage equivalence... for reals??)

[Conrad Beans]

So here's a strange thing: I feel sedated as fuck on 20 or 30mg of Valium, yet can function just fine on 4-6mg of clonazepam; speaking articulately, skipping merrily down the sidewalk, breaking into song (and occasionally: dance) and otherwise going about my day. 2mg of Xanax also fucks me up. Is this a function of the drugs themselves (ie. their innate sedative, anxiolytic, song-and-dance inspiring qualities) or has someone seriously fucked up the conversion charts?

There seems to be little consensus about equivalency as it is. Take, for example, these two calculators:

1. http://clincalc.com/Benzodiazepine
2. http://psychopharmacopeia.com/bzd_dose_convert.php

To me, 2mg of clonaz feels more like like 10 or 15mg of diaz. Is there something wrong with me? The stats? The drugs? The entire fucking system, man? Is this all a mass gaslighting conspiracy orchestrated by the lizard people who run my neighbourhood pharmacy and local drug corner?

Peas,

Conrad.

 

[steewith2ees]

There are a couple of factors that may effect this but the main one (IMO) could be due to the rapidity of onset when taken orally. For a long acting benzodiazepine, diazepam begins to work extremely quickly - 15 minutes or less in my opinion when taken in a high state of anxiety or during periods of low tolerance and in all cases I find it acts even faster than the admittedly few) triazolo benzos I use on a fairly regular basis (Clonazepam is my go to benzo but I still use Clonitrazolam and Alprazolam a few times a month, with the xanax usually needing 15 - 30 minutes to take effect and the c - lam 30 mins + on occasion). It is though as always horses for courses and these are my own experiences.

The rapid onset and profound muscle relaxation may also contribute to the feeling that the diazepam hits 'harder' than clonazepam and when taken side by side, clonazepam, which is when all is said and done an extremely powerful drug is extremely liable to produce delusions of sobriety due to its slow and subtle onset.

When an old colleague of mine (a psychiatrist) first introduced me to the wonders (but of course not the horrors ) of c - pam back in 2001 he cut straight through the notions put forward by the benzo conversion charts, telling me that subjectively he felt that 0.5mg of 'Rivotril / Klonopin' was equivalent to roughly 7.5mg of diazepam and whether by suggestion or reality that notion has stayed with me ever since.

I do share your feelings - I regularly use 2mg of clonazepam (supposed equiv. of 40mg d - pam) as a standard dose with good but manageable effect but occasional doses of 30mg diazepam put me straight on my arse.

 

[Mmp85]

When I take a comparable dose of Valium to my prescribed klonopin it knocks me out compared to being able to go about my day. Same with xanex. For me I feel like it's a tolerance issue. I'm used to my klonopin and rarely take another type of benzo unless I'm crashing at a friends and I don't have my own pills.

 

[Lorne???]

A single dose of Valium can hit hard, and it's a fast acting lipophillic benzodiazepine, rapid onset, and it also wears off quickly

Clonazepam is the opposite: poorly lipophillic, slow-intermediate onset and delayed peak, yet a LONG duration of action; it also has some unique (odd) effects of it's own, and the bitrobenzos in general seem less sedating

Personally I dislike Valium; it is weak, it doesn't help my condition other than some anti-anxiety effects, and even in large doses it's more like alcohol, except ~7 hours later it has worn off, and sometimes you feel worse-no, you don't crash as hard as xanax, which I also dislike, yet, xanax at least is powerful and fast acting, and you know bars will help to some extent
To equivalent purposes, the psychiatrist actually was on to something:

0.5ng Clonazepam =5-10ng Valium, so 7.5mg is a good conversion, and I personally also use it as an SDU at times

And remember, unlike opioid calculators, the benzodiazepine converters pretty much fail to distinguish, Or possibly even take into account, the differences between Acute and Chronic dosing, with Clonazepam in particular; it builds up in the body, is roughly 85% protein bound, and is not extensively redistributed. So, it is able, to an extent, build up like methadone, improving Duration and even potentcy with regular dosing- on the other hand, a single dose is a slow acting sedative/hypnotic, with effects on serotonin and other effects, like muscle relaxation and in some cases, severe disinhibition, especially when you redose because you don't realize the Tmax is 2.5 hours ", resulting in bizarre behavior while insisting your sober-Clonazepam is powerful folks, and it can trick you, as it's less likely to simply put you too sleep, and it lasts all day if you are not dependent and for no good reason take a few mgs. Note that Valium, that is DZP and it's primary metabolite, nordazepam, can also. Hold up with chronic chronic/HEAVY usage, and so Acute vs Chronic can also apply to. Album to a lesser extent; however you would have to dose pretty frequently, since the SDU for nordazepam (available as a prodrug Clorazepate, brand name Tranxene) is 15-20mg, so you would need pretty much double the amount of nordazepam than Valium for it to begin to become truly relevant, and it doesn't last 100 hours. As for Clonazolam..

 

[Conrad Beans]

A single dose of Valium can hit hard, and it's a fast acting lipophillic benzodiazepine, rapid onset, and it also wears off quickly

Clonazepam is the opposite: poorly lipophillic, slow-intermediate onset and delayed peak, yet a LONG duration of action; it also has some unique (odd) effects of it's own, and the bitrobenzos in general seem less sedating

Personally I dislike Valium; it is weak, it doesn't help my condition other than some anti-anxiety effects, and even in large doses it's more like alcohol, except ~7 hours later it has worn off, and sometimes you feel worse-no, you don't crash as hard as xanax, which I also dislike, yet, xanax at least is powerful and fast acting, and you know bars will help to some extent
To equivalent purposes, the psychiatrist actually was on to something:

0.5ng Clonazepam =5-10ng Valium, so 7.5mg is a good conversion, and I personally also use it as an SDU at times

Yo Lorne, you REALLY seem to know your benzos... Could I get a reply from you in that other thread I put up? The one where I mentioned eating clonaz like jellybeans and you called me a snarky bitch ? But truly wouldn't mind your advice on a short tapering plan. At the moment, my clonaz use is a out of control but it's only been a few weeks so I need to find a smooth way back to 10mg diaz a day. And I now have access to loads of clonaz but limited diaz.

Thanks and kisses.

 

[Lorne???]

Sure if I can find it.

Apperantly, I am the benzo guy. Ironically, opioids are(or were, it's complicated) my DOC, I started taking benzodiazepines medical work, and uh, got addicted/dependent.

Yeah, post your usage and tell me what you have access to and if you are doing this incognito or going to a doctor-should probably have just put that in the other thread- and nothin wrong with being snarky (on occasion)

 

[Kdem]

Conrad,

'The one where I mentioned eating clonaz like jellybeans' Please don't do that.

Benzodiazepines bind at the 'benzodiazepine binding site' of the GABAA receptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GABAA_receptor#Target_for_benzodiazepines) specifically at the interface of an alpha (1,2,3,5) subunit, beta subunit, gamma subunit.
Diazepam will hit alpha 1 (sedation) hard, clonazepam has a very high affinity for alpha 2 and 3 which are responsible for anxiolytic and anticonvulsive effects and more. So most likely you will not notice that typical GABAergic sedation.

While you may be able to get away with that on the short run, on the long run you really don't want to develop tolerance and dependence because you will notice things you have never noticed before.

Some equivalancy charts are created for therapeutic effects, some for conversion to diazepam based on anxiolytic effects (Ashton).

 

[chompy]

.5mg clonazepam = 10mg diazepam

 

[Scrofula]

There shouldn't be much difference in subunit preference between clonazepam and diazepam. They're still within the same classic set of benzos. They'll have different potencies, and different metabolites and half-lives, which is why you can't say benzo A = exactly 2x benzo B. You can say that a basic dosing unit is 0.5mg clonazepam and 10mg diazepam.

Something to keep in mind is that within the same class, saying one is "anxiolytic" while one is "sedative" doesn't mean they aren't both anxiolytic and sedative at a higher dose.

What I mean is, the anxiolytic one will still black you out, it just takes a little more to do it.

 

[Conrad Beans]

Just a little follow-up for those who are interested:

I had no issues at all going back to 5-10mg a day of Valium after consuming 40mg of clonazepam in roughly 1.5 weeks. I think, perhaps, the long half-life of both drugs coupled with the short duration of the clonazapam binge worked in my favour. I know it's risky behaviour and I was/am lucky, but the reality is that I barely noticed the switch back (apart from possibly being more clear-headed).

Not suggesting that others should do the same, or that this kinda risky binge nonsense will work out for everyone else the way that it did for myself (by the way, I'm also on 50-100mg Sertraline/Zoloft so that may also have played a role in the smooth transition), but yeah, happy days as far as I'm concerned.