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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Stimulants Claims regarding meth and n-iso: prevalence, detection, cleaning.

This is exactly the same as if someone would post another “what’s wrong with MDMA?” thread.
No it isn't. That's not at all what I'm saying. I for one do not believe there's something wrong with all methamphetamine. Neither do I believe this is true for MDMA. I'm also basing my beliefs on science and not just "gut feelings" and cherry-picked anecdotal evidence like the MehDMA "truthers" attempt to do. Moreover, I am not claiming that this is a widespread cut anyway; just that it's happened, self-fulfilling prophecy or not.

It would get moved to the the main thread because too many would clutter up the forum.
I didn't start a new thread. Was just answering someone's question on an existing thread on a tangentially related topic.

That has happened countless times and if anything gets more eyes on it than less. I wouldn’t take this personally.
Well you're a better person than I am. I think it's odd that the person who argued with me asked me to edit my posts, and after I do so, they then move the posts to some thread with a title that already craps on the topic before you've reading the first word. It's talking about cleaning up claims and shit. Like I'm just some asshole spreading dangerous misinformation left and right. Idk, man; it's a bit insulting when you know you've put in some time and effort on a thing.

Also DrugsData sample base is far from limited compared to most
This feels pretty assumptive. Can you give me some concrete evidence or examples to back up this claim?

and the bias if anything falls in favor of people believing their product contains n-iso.
This is conjecture. Moreover, drugsdata.org themselves post a disclaimer to explain and admit that their samples come only from those willing to send in drug samples and this alone will inherently lead to bias.

You’d think out of all those people thinking they have n-iso or some cut up meth, it would be found.
Though rare, it is not unheard of. And honestly, no, I've lost a lot of faith in the competency of certain independent drug testing labs ever since I really looked into Energy Control, Spain.

I’ve also seen research articles where it was found but the samples found compared to samples analyzed quickly shows it’s a drop in the bucket and more than likely a few cases of self fulfilling prophecy.
Nonetheless, without mentioned prevalence, it is not inaccurate to say then that n-iPBA has been detected in analyzed samples. Why is everyone having such a hard time with this fact?

I know one of which has been posted a few times on here.

And on your last point.. To be fair you argue with everyone lol :) I mean that in the nicest possible way.
Yeah I get it – you wish to avoid provoking me. Look man, I'm not just some argumentative prick looking to start fights. I sincerely hope you can see that.

It’s part of what makes you a good contributor here, but you can’t deny you like playing devils advocate.
No, I really don't. I do not argue for argument's sake, and I believe wholeheartedly in the points I get behind or else I remain quiet on a topic. Please don't confuse my passion for a topic with some kind of passion for debate or whatever. N-iso was not the only point I made in my comment; there are other salient points on there, but everything was shuffled off the initial thread anyway. All the other points are lost to piss and vinegar.

I don’t think that should be a considered factor in all this.
Duly noted.
 
I do think there is something clearly different with this mass produced Mexican crystal meth, but I doubt the issue is n-iso.

Whatever the issue is, this stuff definitely feels far more adrenergic than the meth made from pseudoephedrine. The GCMS shows "methamphetamine", but it doesn't feel enantiomerically pure. As one of the rare individuals who has had a script of desoxyn, I can say with certainty that I have tried enantiomerically pure dextromethamphetamine, and this new crystal meth feels very different from that stuff.

For the record, I was never a fan of even good dextromethamphetamine, nor was I a fan of desoxyn. The problem is, while I find good dextromethamphetamine to be a decent recreational stimulant at high doses, I don't find it to be a good functional stimulant at low doses, which is why I requested to be switched back to dexedrine from desoxyn. I admit that I was excited to get that desoxyn script given the lore and rarity, but I found the effect to be very spacey and lethargic compared to dexedrine. In any event, I have always been far more of a cocaine fan than a meth fan, and would much rather smoke freebase cocaine than d-meth.

Yet while, the old school pseudo-based crystalline d-meth did very much resemble the effect of pharmaceutical desoxyn (though not as strong on a mg to mg basis, with 40mg of oral desoxyn being somewhat stronger than 40mg of oral street pseudo d-meth), this new crystal meth has a quite a different effect profile than either desoxyn or pseudo street meth, with the most notable differences being apparent at low doses. At high oral doses (100mg+) of this new stuff, the effects of d-methamphetamine become more apparent, such as pupil dilation, euphoria, etc. But this is accompanied with a great deal of vasoconstriction, sort of reminiscent of propylhexedrine.

I am open to the possibility that this stuff is somehow chemically indistinct from the old stuff, with the only difference being me. But I'm a pretty seasoned drug user, have sampled a huge variety of stimulants, and it strikes me that the effect profile of this "methamphetamine" is quite different than any crystal methamphetamine I've ever come across (the most notable difference being an unusually adrenergic nature, even at low doses, which is uncharacteristic of pure dextromethamphetamine).

But I very much doubt n-iso is the culprit here. My guess is that it might not be enantiomerically pure, since even a fairly small amount of levomethamphetamine could alter the effect profile. Or a contaminant. Or perhaps it is something less understood. Human beings are many times more sensitive and complex pieces of machinery than any GCMS apparatus, and perhaps synthetic routes can alter binding profiles in ways we don't understand.
 
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No it isn't. That's not at all what I'm saying. I for one do not believe there's something wrong with all methamphetamine. Neither do I believe this is true for MDMA. I'm also basing my beliefs on science and not just "gut feelings" and cherry-picked anecdotal evidence like the MehDMA "truthers" attempt to do. Moreover, I am not claiming that this is a widespread cut anyway; just that it's happened, self-fulfilling prophecy or not.


I didn't start a new thread. Was just answering someone's question on an existing thread on a tangentially related topic.


Well you're a better person than I am. I think it's odd that the person who argued with me asked me to edit my posts, and after I do so, they then move the posts to some thread with a title that already craps on the topic before you've reading the first word. It's talking about cleaning up claims and shit. Like I'm just some asshole spreading dangerous misinformation left and right. Idk, man; it's a bit insulting when you know you've put in some time and effort on a thing.


This feels pretty assumptive. Can you give me some concrete evidence or examples to back up this claim?


This is conjecture. Moreover, drugsdata.org themselves post a disclaimer to explain and admit that their samples come only from those willing to send in drug samples and this alone will inherently lead to bias.


Though rare, it is not unheard of. And honestly, no, I've lost a lot of faith in the competency of certain independent drug testing labs ever since I really looked into Energy Control, Spain.


Nonetheless, without mentioned prevalence, it is not inaccurate to say then that n-iPBA has been detected in analyzed samples. Why is everyone having such a hard time with this fact?


Yeah I get it – you wish to avoid provoking me. Look man, I'm not just some argumentative prick looking to start fights. I sincerely hope you can see that.


No, I really don't. I do not argue for argument's sake, and I believe wholeheartedly in the points I get behind or else I remain quiet on a topic. Please don't confuse my passion for a topic with some kind of passion for debate or whatever. N-iso was not the only point I made in my comment; there are other salient points on there, but everything was shuffled off the initial thread anyway. All the other points are lost to piss and vinegar.


Duly noted.
Erowid clearly states..

“Out of 271 samples containing methamphetamine analyzed between January 2019 and July 2022, none contained isopropylbenzylamine..”

3yrs, 271 samples and many of which believed n-iso was contained in their product. (So samples are biased towards there more likely than less likely containing n-iso.)

In this study only 8 samples were found between 2017-18 in a province in China. (Guangdong Province to be exact.). They don’t list among how many samples taken. It’s also the most populated province with 126mil people.

But look at this an article of the “massive crystal meth crackdown” that occurred in Guangdong Province dated 2018..


“In the first four months of this year, customs officers seized 21kg of crystal meth in 44 cases, down 60 per cent compared with 53kg in 42 cases in the same period last year.” (So assuming a similar pattern through the year around 120 samples.)

“The source said there was a similar number of the cases but a sharp drop this year in the amount of drugs seized, reflecting an apparent lack of supply.

The street price for meth has surged to HK$550 (US$70) per gram, from as low as HK$280 per gram in 2016.” (Indicating a likely bias towards if anything more n-iso adulteration due to the lack of supply.)

The only article I’m seeing regarding its use as a supposed adulterant is a DEA microgram from 2007.

“Over the past 18 months, DEA and other forensic laboratories have received increasing numbers of suspected or purported high purity bulk methamphetamine hydrochloride..”

Why this is interesting is the DEA has been able to differentiate n-iso and meth from day 1, I highly doubt they’d keep their mouths shut about it if this was still an issue. They absolutely love bringing up “dangerous cuts” to further fuel their fear mongering.

This is also interesting as that was a MAJOR drought period for the US, 2007 weight of meth seized had dropped to half that of 2005. Obviously the sudden findings of alkylamines being found in the meth supply is a direct result of that massive drought. That meth drought also quickly vanished as did the n-iso and related compounds.

The unfortunate thing of that article is it has now fueled the myth which stands today. That n-iso is somehow the cause of everyone no longer enjoying their meth anymore. I find it ironic how hard you fought everyone in the MDMA thread that “MDMA hasn’t changed” yet this seems to be the hill you want die on regarding how “Meth has changed.” I still stand by my statement that you’re a naysayer through and through.

Now where’s your articles and information showing me n-iso is indeed prevalent in the meth supply. 8 samples amongst 400+ samples over a many year period is what I got (besides a year drought a decade n half ago).

-GC
 
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The unfortunate thing of that article is it has now fueled the myth which stands today. That n-iso is somehow the cause of everyone no longer enjoying their meth anymore. I find it ironic how hard you fought everyone in the MDMA thread that “MDMA hasn’t changed” yet this seems to be the hill you want die on regarding how “Meth has changed.” I still stand by my statement that you’re a naysayer through and through.

Now where’s your articles and information showing me n-iso is indeed prevalent in the meth supply. 8 samples amongst 400+ samples over a many year period is what I got (besides a year drought a decade n half ago), how bout you?
How many times do I have to keep repeating this? I AM NOT SAYING THAT N-ISO IS PREVALENT. Let me repeat that for clarity: I'm not saying n-iso is a prevalent cut. As I stated before, I think at one time it may have been a bit more prevalent, citing the exact same sources as you. ALL I've been saying is that it has been used as a cut. That's all. Nothing else. Just that it's been used as a cut before. So answering someone's question about what meth is cut with and saying among other things n-iso has been reported as being used as a meth cut, is entirely accurate. Is it not?

Why is this so hard for anyone to understand?

And WTF are you talking about "the hill I want to die on"? As if this were some professional reputation I'm putting at stake, and honestly I'm fine with my position on this topic if people could just please understand that my position doesn't run contrary to the fair presumption that n-iPBA is not prevalent in meth cuts. I'm starting to suspect you're trolling. Look, you even admit yourself. You KNOW that at some point in the past n-iPBA has been used to cut meth, by DEA's own admission, I don't care how long ago or how uncommon the practice was or is, the fact remains that someone out there has done it. So calling it "not a thing" is a bit disingenuous in my opinion. And I'm not arguing to argue either, a childish practice and an insulting accusation.

It gets really tedious defending my positions when no one understands what I'm saying. I guess the communication failure is mine. It would be nice to feel understood though.

Bottom line is: deliberately shuffling my posts off to the armpit of the website at the conclusion of a disagreement with a mod by that very mod is suspect if not outright fucked up to me. I've requested resolution—that my first post be placed back in the thread from which it was moved—but if not one goddamn person can understand what I'm saying, then I'm not really holding out on much hope I will get the resolution I'm requesting. And this is after having edited my original post per that mod's request. I'm sorry, but I still don't think this is an unjustified anger that I'm feeling. It really fucking bothers me to the point where I feel a certain disgust from the disrespect. I can't escape the feeling that I am wasting my time here, especially having to defend my position that I am apparently incapable of communicating to a single person. So why am I bothering? I want to have a better attitude about this, but it's really difficult when I'm getting attacked by you, too, now @G_Chem and you can't even give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not arguing unscientific nonsense calling it "Mehth" or some cutesy shit, and try to understand what I'm saying. It's really disappointing.
 
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Some meth chemists are more talented, experienced, and or knowledgeable than others, and consequently some batches of street meth are closer to pure than others, nvm if a deliberate cut is added. The synthesis, the follow-through, optimizing the process, and then cleaning it to purity and repeating any processes as necessary to ensure high purity – these are all factors. Meth from a reduction of ephedrine will usually contain some unconverted ephedrine. Meth from p-2-p, in addition to being racemic if not stereoselectively resolved, may contain unconverted ketone and/or n,n-dimethylamphetamine depending on the purity of the methylamine used.

I think it's interesting to note some of the samples on drugsdata.org when searching for "benzylamine". Firstly, n-isopropylbenzylamine appears in several ketamine samples. Secondly, there are a few MDMA samples that tested positive both for 3,4-methylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine and 3,4-methylenedioxy-n-methylbenzylamine.

Chemical name shorthand can get a bit confusing at times and there are more than a few ways to name a chemical outside of IUPEC standards. For example, the original name for amphetamine I believe was phenylisopropylamine. Similarly another word for methamphetamine along those nomenclature lines is phenylisopropylmethylamine. Not that it has much to do with the topic at hand… and regardless, I take your point.
Yes, dirty meth can have some horrible shit in it, I've seen it affect people in terrible ways. I've seen crystal clear (samples that were the purest I've ever seen) cause the same too.

Trust me, I get it. I don't know what's transpired to cause grievance when we are all saying basically the same thing?
Does anybody else see my point or am I completely out-of-my-mind delusional and/or overly sensitive?
Yes and no. Maybe take a breather from Bluelight if it is causing you stress in real life, it's not worth it. That's advice I should give myself sometimes.

I will say, I wish I could show you all the threads (especially one that the author recently deleted) where people are pushing the notion that all meth is fake, contaminated, full of n-iso etc, "I don't care what the chemistry data says, it's all different now, full stop" type shit. It becomes difficult to deal with when they are purposefully encouraging the naive and vulnerable to think irrationally based on their pseudo-science (and no, I'm not talking about you).

As I said, I'm not sure what's transpired, but if your post about isopropylbenzylamine has been moved to a thread on that topic, it might have been that mod's way of putting all info on one topic in one place so as to not censor your posts? I don't know.


I would ask the mods who were posting in that cartel meth thread to revive it and simply close it if possible? Can't remember which forum, but here's a link: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/ca...y-does-it-test-positive-as-meth.896131/page-6

As we all put a lot of work in to that, just for that guy to delete it.. it's a good example of why n-iso posts might be treated with skepticism.
 
How many times do I have to keep repeating this? I AM NOT SAYING THAT N-ISO IS PREVALENT. Let me repeat that for clarity: I'm not saying n-iso is a prevalent cut. As I stated before, I think at one time it may have been a bit more prevalent, citing the exact same sources as you. ALL I've been saying is that it has been used as a cut. That's all. Nothing else. Just that it's been used as a cut before. So answering someone's question about what meth is cut with and saying among other things n-iso has been reported as being used as a meth cut, is entirely accurate. Is it not?

Here. The bold emphasis is in your original

So these are the common impurities and cuts for methamphetamine as I understand it:
440px-Racemic_methamphetamine.svg.png
(first here's the methamphetamine molecule for reference)


 
Here. The bold emphasis is in your original
Yes this invalidates the entire post, doesn't it? Thank you so much for shitting on my contribution. You've made this a miserable experience, congratulations. I'm debating whether to continue contributing to the site altogether. I don't do it to be insulted.

Explain this to me, please… from https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36162621/

> "N-isopropylbenzylamine, an isomer of methamphetamine, has been used to adulterate methamphetamine, and distributed as fake 'Ice' methamphetamine by illicit manufacturers, leading to a world problem of N-isopropylbenzylamine exposure."

There are ten Chinese authors on that paper and it's dated October 2022. I'd love to know why those ten scientists in China would coauthor such an opener to the article's abstract. Seriously, how do you explain this? Are they all wrong? Please, I'm dying to know how you explain this.
 
Here. The bold emphasis is in your original
I was also 100% amenable to the idea of altering those exact words to say this is at least contested by the Erowid. I don't ask much, and my request to have my edited post returned were shot down. And so it goes; two tears in a bucket. I've expressed how I feel. There's not much else to say. I hope this is fun for you and totally worth this effort.
 
I have temporarily locked this thread since it has moved so far from the intended purpose.

I will open a new thread open for any kind of post or opinion on “Ideas on how to validate widespread claims that a lot of meth is dangerously contaminated with n-iso”.

In time, we’ll work out of and where differential categorising and re-organising of such posts may be required.
 
Post all your thoughts on meth contaminated with n-iso here. All ideas welcome.

What claims are made about it?

What do you believe about it?

How can we know anything for certain?

How should we assess and manage the trie level of harm it involves?

* This thread will likely be split into a number of different threads around specific themes at a later date.
 
The free-discussion uncensored will accept all contributions thread on meth and iso now open for business.

 
I think its true. The side effects of meth seemingly have only gotten worse. With Mexico being the leading producer the cartels could give a shit less this isn’t breaking bad they’re producing ISO contaminated meth and its wide spread
 
Alright, I have unlocked the previous thread, merged with the existing, and unstickied this thread as it has no reason to be stickied.

Please keep further contributions to this thread constructive and please do not delve into personal insults or criticisms.
 
I think its true. The side effects of meth seemingly have only gotten worse. With Mexico being the leading producer the cartels could give a shit less this isn’t breaking bad they’re producing ISO contaminated meth and its wide spread
No, I've been clued in to some new data, and I honestly have to abandon the likelihood of iso-contamination on any level that it would get noticed even, let alone become "widespread".

TL;DR – I think if you're like me, then years ago you may have become used to having only d-isomer meth which is preferable to the 50/50 blend of d-isomer and l-isomer meth chemically referred to as "racemic". And if one is used to d-meth and compares it to dl-meth, I'll bet that could account for a lot, if not most, of what gets attributed to "widespread n-iso contamination", but it's just a hypothesis, conjecture.

Petty disputes aside (and I apologize for my part in said disputes), @Atomic_Decay makes some valid points. AD also is connected academically and isn't stymied by a paywall the way my cheap ass is, and AD's been gracious enough to look into this paper for us. For reals, I am grateful that he's shed some light on the subject and pointed out how slipshod that Chinese paper actually is, and how China had to crackdown recently on the number of poor-quality, marginally peer-reviewed academic papers being churned out there as they don't hold to a sufficient academic threshold/criteria for globally competitive academics.

In other words, that paper is mad suspect, and while n-iso contamination has occured in the past, it's does not make much financial sense and the claim isn't backed up by much in the way of solid data. If nothing else, money is the motivator and dl-meth prevalence is the culprit.

I honestly think, similar to MDMA, none of us can know for sure whether meth differs now from ten or twenty or more years ago just based on subjective experience, because: science. Anecdotes might hint at a thing, or they might be red-herring-esque distractions. Without a time machine, all we can do is guess. But my best guess is that if we're truly perceiving an actual difference in the gear now vs that of yesteryear, I'm dubious that it's because of the involvement of n-iso or any similar, substituted benzylamine compound. Believe me, I understand the tendency to think n-iso is fucking shit up, but the facts don't really add up there beyond to say that it seems like n-iso was the "on-trend" meth cut all the cool dealers were into back in two thousand and late. Lol. But no, I'd say this practice is not common enough to warrant concern now and/or over the past decade. MSM seems more likely, and my current pet theory is that what we're seeing now is just a shitload of racemic meth, stuff that is 50% d-isomer and 50% l-isomer, the latter of which is functionally just a bronchial dilator with some stimmy body buzz effects though nothing approaching euphoria or cognitive noteworthiness.

If you compare this to even some shake-and-bake produced meth with a good follow-up cleaning and recrystallization, that gear will beat the brakes off racemic cartel/syndicate meth imports just by virtue of the shake-and-bake stuff being d-isomer only, all other things equal.

I just read through the DEA's 2020 National Drug Threat Assessment and the vast majority of meth they've confiscated in the past decade has been overwhelmingly high-quality and high-purity, though mostly still a racemic blend, just a very clean racemate. It said that some 87% of the meth in the U.S. is made from one of two telltale methods both of which are p-2-p methods, meaning in short that approximately 87% of U.S. meth is a 50/50 blend of the two optical isomers, d-methamphetamine and l-methamphetamine. I'll spare the rest of the deets since this is the BDD forum, but should you be interested in learning more, run a search for that DEA 2020 National Drug Threat Assessment and read that puppy for yourself. It's unreal the crusade anti-drug people have going on. And for what? The unattainable goal of global drug eradication? Lol, yeah right.
 
^^^ Well the crafty Mexicans have actually found a way to make nonracemic meth via P2P so I don't think what is going around is the d,l-meth racemate. That said, I don't thinks its enantiomerically pure either.

They use an interesting recycling approach:


But there does seem to be something off with the resulting meth. It even tastes remarkably different. And it's unusually adrenergic. Don't think n-iso is involved here though. It's just a dirty synth. Perhaps it is enantiomerically pure, just contaminated or even altered in some less understood way via the recycling process described in the above article.
 
^^^ Well the crafty Mexicans have actually found a way to make nonracemic meth via P2P so I don't think what is going around is the d,l-meth racemate. That said, I don't thinks its enantiomerically pure either.

They use an interesting recycling approach:


But there does seem to be something off with the resulting meth. It even tastes remarkably different. And it's unusually adrenergic. Don't think n-iso is involved here though. It's just a dirty synth. Perhaps it is enantiomerically pure, just contaminated or even altered in some less understood way via the recycling process described in the above article.
So due to some recent convos I've had on here, I'm reticent to post too much in the BDD forums. But this also seems like the right place to continue this conversation at this point, so let me qualify that by saying this will likely get a bit complex for this forum. I apologize in advance & I also invite any mods with a strong conviction and impulse to move it elsewhere please feel free to do so. I'm only here to help. Back to isomeric resolution…

Yeah you're talking about using the chiral d-tartaric acid to separate each isomer in a racemic mix, exploiting chiral-based differences in solvency and crystal forming tendency with different solvents + stereospecific d-tartaric acid. Once separated, the unwanted isomer can be resolved into a racemic mix once again and the process repeated as desired to increase conversion yield but at a growingly expensive rate. So at first it's 50% d-meth, then after a resolution with tartaric acid, another 25% is added bringing the total to 75%. Repeat the process and it goes to 87.5%, and next 93.75%, then 96.875% and so on and so forth. But was that last resolution worth the extra 3.125%? Ask the question at each percentage increase and pretty quickly the answer becomes no in most clandestine chemistry settings by my conjecture.

However, yes I absolutely think you're correct regarding enantiomeric purity.


Just fun facts and FYI → this method to produce (+)-methamphetamine from the racemate has been known, discussed, and passed around for many years, even back to the old biker days when it was all made from p-2-p back then as well.

Evidently this knowledge dates to 1932. Pulling up posts from the Rhodium chemistry archives on the Erowid, check out this post from the turn of the century: https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/amphetamine.resolution.html I won't quote the whole thing, but:

> "It is known in the art (Ber. D. Chem. Gesell. (1932) p664) that d-amphetamine d-bitartrate may be obtained as a crystalline acid tartrate, from the racemic […]"

The thing is: it's tedious to repeat this process, take half the yield, run it through the resolution process/reflux and then separate, rinse, and repeat, ad nauseum, or at least until the Law of Diminishing Results kicks in, and it's never the best case scenario with the yields like I'm figuring for the sake of making this point right now. The way I see it is like this… Think about how Mexican organized crime has handled drugs in the past and even now. Consider all that bullshit shwag, brown frown, ditch weed from the 90s we all smoked, but not before carefully de-seeding. Quality was sacrificed for convenience and quantity until mass production changed hands to Canada and California (obviously I'm speaking from a U.S. American-centric view; but similar things happened across Europe as well, can't speak on Oz and NZ/Oceania though, but I get the feeling this raising of the cannabis bar was somewhat global).

Now consider all the cocaine that comes across the southwest border from Mexico into the U.S. Maybe it's grown in Peru, Bolivia, or Columbia, but it winds up in HCl labs in Columbia regardless and thereafter is sent to Mexico for importation to the U.S. In order to get properly pure cocaine in the U.S. its source can't come from this chain where it's guaranteed to be cut. The stuff that comes fresh out of the hydrochloride labs before anything else is added to it is what you want. Too bad it's so expensive and rare outside of South America. At any rate, most of the shit many of us have hoovered up our noses in the U.S. is virtually always re-rock. Just between those two drugs alone – cannabis and cocaine – it's pretty clear that quality and purity take a quick backseat to profits with the Mexican TCOs¹, and then it just becomes whatever the market will tolerate.

But if you analyze the neglect and the disregard for human safety that has occurred as the so-called "cartels" have stepped into the opioid game with Chinese fentanyl and its analogues and derivatives, then … it's all just a bit of a crapshoot. And the U.S. govt. has the gall to call that "drug control".

At any rate, there are a few other listed procedures for resolving a racemic mixture of n-methyl amphetamine.



1.) The govt. calls them TCOs (Transnational Criminal Organizations) since "cartel" is a misnomer that implies cooperation and there are ~8 competing organizations in Mexico/The U.S. like The Sinaloa, The New Jalisco Cartel, Las Moicas, The Gulf Cartel, The Juarez Cartel, Los Cabelleros Templarios (porque: Católicos, por supuesto), Beltran-Leyva Organization, y Los Zetas.
 
No, I've been clued in to some new data, and I honestly have to abandon the likelihood of iso-contamination on any level that it would get noticed even, let alone become "widespread".

TL;DR – I think if you're like me, then years ago you may have become used to having only d-isomer meth which is preferable to the 50/50 blend of d-isomer and l-isomer meth chemically referred to as "racemic". And if one is used to d-meth and compares it to dl-meth, I'll bet that could account for a lot, if not most, of what gets attributed to "widespread n-iso contamination", but it's just a hypothesis, conjecture.

Petty disputes aside (and I apologize for my part in said disputes), @Atomic_Decay makes some valid points. AD also is connected academically and isn't stymied by a paywall the way my cheap ass is, and AD's been gracious enough to look into this paper for us. For reals, I am grateful that he's shed some light on the subject and pointed out how slipshod that Chinese paper actually is, and how China had to crackdown recently on the number of poor-quality, marginally peer-reviewed academic papers being churned out there as they don't hold to a sufficient academic threshold/criteria for globally competitive academics.

In other words, that paper is mad suspect, and while n-iso contamination has occured in the past, it's does not make much financial sense and the claim isn't backed up by much in the way of solid data. If nothing else, money is the motivator and dl-meth prevalence is the culprit.

I honestly think, similar to MDMA, none of us can know for sure whether meth differs now from ten or twenty or more years ago just based on subjective experience, because: science. Anecdotes might hint at a thing, or they might be red-herring-esque distractions. Without a time machine, all we can do is guess. But my best guess is that if we're truly perceiving an actual difference in the gear now vs that of yesteryear, I'm dubious that it's because of the involvement of n-iso or any similar, substituted benzylamine compound. Believe me, I understand the tendency to think n-iso is fucking shit up, but the facts don't really add up there beyond to say that it seems like n-iso was the "on-trend" meth cut all the cool dealers were into back in two thousand and late. Lol. But no, I'd say this practice is not common enough to warrant concern now and/or over the past decade. MSM seems more likely, and my current pet theory is that what we're seeing now is just a shitload of racemic meth, stuff that is 50% d-isomer and 50% l-isomer, the latter of which is functionally just a bronchial dilator with some stimmy body buzz effects though nothing approaching euphoria or cognitive noteworthiness.

If you compare this to even some shake-and-bake produced meth with a good follow-up cleaning and recrystallization, that gear will beat the brakes off racemic cartel/syndicate meth imports just by virtue of the shake-and-bake stuff being d-isomer only, all other things equal.

I just read through the DEA's 2020 National Drug Threat Assessment and the vast majority of meth they've confiscated in the past decade has been overwhelmingly high-quality and high-purity, though mostly still a racemic blend, just a very clean racemate. It said that some 87% of the meth in the U.S. is made from one of two telltale methods both of which are p-2-p methods, meaning in short that approximately 87% of U.S. meth is a 50/50 blend of the two optical isomers, d-methamphetamine and l-methamphetamine. I'll spare the rest of the deets since this is the BDD forum, but should you be interested in learning more, run a search for that DEA 2020 National Drug Threat Assessment and read that puppy for yourself. It's unreal the crusade anti-drug people have going on. And for what? The unattainable goal of global drug eradication? Lol, yeah right.
This is the first time I’ve ever posted on this site and this conversation/debate is the one that got me motivated enough to do so. First off, I want to give you props on owning your part in where the conversation went. Second, personally, no matter the root cause, I want to say that the only thing that I think we can all agree on is that the difference between the dope now and in the past is NOT some subjective mind fuck we’re all tweaking ourselves into. I’m a weird dude in that I have done things a little backwards compared to most. Let me take a little hit then explain…

Please forgive the boring necessary brief introduction, I try to keep it short but I feel it’s relevant for a number of reasons. I started shooting dope when I was 15. And by dope I mean the other dope. I’m not using that hoity-toity tone “the real dope”, but I do just mean heroin. I have abused almost everything else that you can abuse at one point or another. I finally went to prison for it back in 2013-16. Was living in NYC but got busted down in Texas where I was born and visiting my family when I did. I got out in 2016 and figured hey, what the fuck else do I have to lose or fail at because so far, that’s all I’ve done. So with a felony conviction and shit credit I decided to try college. Made my first few A’s and found my new addiction. Started as a polisci pre-law major but changed to Biochemistry when that Asshole got elected and I took a gen chem class and actually liked it (I barely graduated hs and only did because they sent me to the alt school where they give you homework and then the answers to it the next day and you get an A by not making the teachers lives harder than they are or stabbing anyone with a pencil). My point is, I hated chemistry in grade school. Cheated my way through math. Loved reading enough that I didn’t have to work at English, blah blah blah…this is my attempt at trying to explain why I’m proud of myself without tooting my horn. I know for a fact that I’m not smarter than everyone. I do take adderall and I take it as prescribed because while there was a time in nyc where I would sometimes dr. shop for it, it was never my main thing so it wasn’t that often. You can’t even fill those scripts a day early anymore and every doctor I go to knows I take adderall and suboxone. But I’m not some NA or AA or whatever clean and sober mf who got my shit all the way together and went back to church. I just somehow managed to stop taking drugs to the point where I do all the stuff I used to do like black out, nod out, make awful decisions because I’m way too high or focused on the need to get high…I just rerouted the wires in my prefrontal cortex to not jump to oblivion every time something doesn’t go my way or hell, every time it does. I can’t take credit for it in other words. And it sure as hell isn’t a 12 step program even if I can give them credit for helping me in some ways at some points in my life. I’m studying for my MCAT and can ya guess what I want to go to med school for? Yup. Neurobiology. I don’t know if I’m capable yet. But I got this far. It’s just im in my lower 40’s now and I got married and have a little baby girl now too. So school and full time work (in the cannabis industry…the only people that would let me near a lab so far although I just got the degree and where I live has a lot of them so I waited about 6 months of getting rejected by other employers before I even thought to apply for this job. Biochemistry was probably not the best choice as a major for a guy with only drug charges on his background check, but I promise you it made sense to me when I took my first Organic Chem class. I swear to you I did not know what it would entail when I signed up to take it once I got to university from community college. Just that I had taken the chems and liked them and decided that if I was gonna help people the way I want to, it’s ultimately not gonna come from policy stuff. Though one cannot understate how important that stuff is…psychology, counseling, lawyers…it’s a vital part of it but to me it felt…reversible. Figuring out the biological cause for my life of pain and suffering (and of course euphoria and partying initially to run away from that pain and suffering) felt like a more permanent route of administration if you catch my meaning. Addiction and drugs are way more complex than anyone knows and we are only scratching the surface right now…finally. Hope that didn’t make you want to get high to make it stop. I’ll get back on point now:

There is no way the stuff that I get from time to time as a reward or escape is the same stuff it was in 2003, 2008 2011, 2017, 2020. For all the reasons I have been reading in this thread. It’s not as good as it used to be but it’s better than it got there for a minute. Except now I have some basic enough knowledge/understanding to ask questions that are at least relevant AND I can at least read and understand the medical journals even if I don’t understand the minuet details of them, I know when in enzyme and biological pathway is being referenced and have a general idea about where they are and their primary purpose as we understand them so far. I took genetics too, but undergrad so again just the basics.

That said, you had me goin on the iso for a minute. But your admirable admissions that the journal referenced may be flawed and the reasons for it are also correct. Believe me, the number of Chinese International students coming to study here in the states is still going up. Everyone and everywhere else too, meaning other nationalities and other primary destinations for university are increasingly as well, but none and nowhere like China and the US. We still have the hands down best post grade school system in the world and kids or parents who really want their kids to have an actual leg up both in what words and titles are on their degree and the substance of what that degree means they probably learned. Their university system is rife with corruption and bad incentives.

That’s as far as I’ve gotten in the conversation, I think I went to the next reply but felt the need to come back and start here. I’ve been personal trying to get the shit that I get right using my newfound knowledge and experience and I cannot for the life of me. I want the shit to crack back clear, almost immediately (at least immediately if I’m using an isopropyl dampened towel right after I take a toke with real spider webs and taste like nothing. And I want the water that I reuse from my bong to recrystallize to form shards and not sheets. I don’t have the equipment at home to test for isomers, enantiomers, optical chirality or otherwise. But I do have a rotovap and most of the solvents needed to play around with it (except DCM god damnit, can’t get it, find it, or make it but I sure as heck need it). Last year I had a professor that let us use the HMNR machine without him standing over us. I could have used it then and there at some point. No longer. I’m goin to shut up now and keep reading. I don’t think there could be a whole lot more posts because I saw the date on these and I am not used to seeing current threads either. I haven’t been on this site long enough nor had the time to utilize it but I’m glad it’s here. And if I had to take a guess, the racemic mixture sounds like the front runner. That link someone shared about the chinese running the stuff back through to convert the l-isomer…as both these two gentleman have pointed out, we cannot trust that article anymore than we could read it if it was written in chinese. Im more interested in the science of it now than I am the end result of figuring it out. I don’t partake enough. But I really really really want to find out.
 
No, I've been clued in to some new data, and I honestly have to abandon the likelihood of iso-contamination on any level that it would get noticed even, let alone become "widespread".

TL;DR – I think if you're like me, then years ago you may have become used to having only d-isomer meth which is preferable to the 50/50 blend of d-isomer and l-isomer meth chemically referred to as "racemic". And if one is used to d-meth and compares it to dl-meth, I'll bet that could account for a lot, if not most, of what gets attributed to "widespread n-iso contamination", but it's just a hypothesis, conjecture.

Petty disputes aside (and I apologize for my part in said disputes), @Atomic_Decay makes some valid points. AD also is connected academically and isn't stymied by a paywall the way my cheap ass is, and AD's been gracious enough to look into this paper for us. For reals, I am grateful that he's shed some light on the subject and pointed out how slipshod that Chinese paper actually is, and how China had to crackdown recently on the number of poor-quality, marginally peer-reviewed academic papers being churned out there as they don't hold to a sufficient academic threshold/criteria for globally competitive academics.

In other words, that paper is mad suspect, and while n-iso contamination has occured in the past, it's does not make much financial sense and the claim isn't backed up by much in the way of solid data. If nothing else, money is the motivator and dl-meth prevalence is the culprit.

I honestly think, similar to MDMA, none of us can know for sure whether meth differs now from ten or twenty or more years ago just based on subjective experience, because: science. Anecdotes might hint at a thing, or they might be red-herring-esque distractions. Without a time machine, all we can do is guess. But my best guess is that if we're truly perceiving an actual difference in the gear now vs that of yesteryear, I'm dubious that it's because of the involvement of n-iso or any similar, substituted benzylamine compound. Believe me, I understand the tendency to think n-iso is fucking shit up, but the facts don't really add up there beyond to say that it seems like n-iso was the "on-trend" meth cut all the cool dealers were into back in two thousand and late. Lol. But no, I'd say this practice is not common enough to warrant concern now and/or over the past decade. MSM seems more likely, and my current pet theory is that what we're seeing now is just a shitload of racemic meth, stuff that is 50% d-isomer and 50% l-isomer, the latter of which is functionally just a bronchial dilator with some stimmy body buzz effects though nothing approaching euphoria or cognitive noteworthiness.

If you compare this to even some shake-and-bake produced meth with a good follow-up cleaning and recrystallization, that gear will beat the brakes off racemic cartel/syndicate meth imports just by virtue of the shake-and-bake stuff being d-isomer only, all other things equal.

I just read through the DEA's 2020 National Drug Threat Assessment and the vast majority of meth they've confiscated in the past decade has been overwhelmingly high-quality and high-purity, though mostly still a racemic blend, just a very clean racemate. It said that some 87% of the meth in the U.S. is made from one of two telltale methods both of which are p-2-p methods, meaning in short that approximately 87% of U.S. meth is a 50/50 blend of the two optical isomers, d-methamphetamine and l-methamphetamine. I'll spare the rest of the deets since this is the BDD forum, but should you be interested in learning more, run a search for that DEA 2020 National Drug Threat Assessment and read that puppy for yourself. It's unreal the crusade anti-drug people have going on. And for what? The unattainable goal of global drug eradication? Lol, yeah right.
See there is just one problem with your assessment of the current meth that is around . Fact is if it was only d/l meth as you say it wouldn't shard up in the large crystals that you see . It would be like it was yrs ago when they where doing p2p cooks it would be small tiny crystals. That is why they add the n- iso to make it crystalize all together. That is only way it would grow crystals. And as far as the DEA and there finding of high purity of it it would show high level of purity because N-ISO is a derivative of methamphetamine it will even test such as on the regent test .
 
That is why they add the n- iso to make it crystalize all together. That is only way it would grow crystals.
You really think that's the "only way it would grow crystals"? I think you're making assumptions. I mean, just off the top of my head, MSM co-crystallizes with methamphetamine, and it's a safe bet other cuts do as well.

There's also the financial argument – to wit: n-iso would be a pretty expensive cut, evidently and would not be a very attractive diluent as a result. But I admit: I don't know for sure and this is just my best conjecture. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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