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Circumcision MEGA MERGED poll and discussion

How do you feel about circumcision?

  • I am male, intact and happy to be that way

    Votes: 170 35.7%
  • I am male, circumcised and glad to be that way

    Votes: 167 35.1%
  • I am male, intact and wish I were circumcised

    Votes: 22 4.6%
  • I am male, circumcised and I wish I were intact

    Votes: 33 6.9%
  • I am female and in favor of circumcision

    Votes: 44 9.2%
  • I am female and against circumcision

    Votes: 28 5.9%
  • Other - I'll post my response below

    Votes: 12 2.5%

  • Total voters
    476
exarkann said:
if the africans would just use a condom....

we wouldnt have to worry about cutting off bits of genitalia.


It's not that simple. It may seem crystal clear to you- you are informed, have an education, and (I assume) live a fairly comfortable life, and I presume you've never been to Africa and seen how people live or how they think. But if you were uneducated, and so poor that you had no idea where the next meal for you or your family was coming from, would you really worry about condoms (I'm thinking mainly of prostitutes here, they get paid extra for not using condoms). Plus there's a lot of misinformation, a lot of people actually believe that condoms don't help against HIV, or worse, that the virus has been put in the condom to help spread HIV - It's easy to laugh at that, but as I said, you're educated and informed. In some cases, HIV is so prevalent that people assume they have the virus whether or not they have been tested for it, and because of that they don't go to any effort to protect themselves. These are societies where people know they will probably die young anyway, whether it be from poverty or disease (in Zambia, where I grew up, the average life expectancy is about 35).

If it indeed has been proven that circumsision makes the transmission of HIV more difficult, then I fully support circumsision on all male babies in Africa, as well as other regions where AIDS is a big problem. And, as huntmich said, that the patients should not be told that it will protect them to some degree against the virus. Condom use should still be promoted, but it's going to take a long time to wipe out all the misinformation spread by traditionalists and the church, and also just to change the way people think, and to fight poverty there.
 
I don't know whether being uncircumcised or circumcised reduces sensitivity. I know that I am circumcised and have never wondered what it would be like to be uncircumcised, and I'm sure that the vast majority of uncircumcised men could say the same.

Regardless of what you believe, circumcision is a minor procedure. You can use any descriptors (ridiculous comparisons to FGM, for example) you want, but I'm sorry, it's the truth. (The reason I know: I actually had the procedure done, which I think is actually worth something.)

If you think a (near if not totally) functionless piece of skin is more important than a vast reduction in the spread of serious STDs then that's your prerogative.

And fairnymph, you should be the one asking the questions. You have absolutely nothing to offer on this topic. You know neither what it is like to be circumcised or uncircumcised and are discussing the topic with people who have been both. Instead of preaching about something you personally know nothing about, why don't you start asking questions yourself and get off your pulpit.
 
Finder said:
This is a pretty poor argument considering condoms reduce transmission of HIV and HPV by far more than the meager 50% you seem so amazed by while not permanently altering the body.

Bravo! I live in the real world. You may live in fantasy land. I'm not promoting circumcision over condom use. I am suggesting that the decrease in transmission alone, whether you use condoms or not, may be worth having the procedure done.

I encourage you to argue against something else that I didn't say.
 
i dont see how saying male genital mutilation is different from female genital mutilation.

they are both barbaric practices that have no real value(except in the case of mild female hood trimming, which seems to actually make sex more pleasurable).

also, telling me that it is easier to tell people to cut off part of their cock, than it is to teach proper condom usage is an insult to humanity's intelligence. you are basically telling me they are to stupid to learn how to use a condom.

regardless, any non-necessary modifications to a human should be done after a person is old enough to give informed consent.
 
exarkann said:
i dont see how saying male genital mutilation is different from female genital mutilation.

First of all, female genital mutilation ranges from cutting off the clit, to cutting off the clit and labia and sewing everything together. In men this would be equal to cutting off the glans. The anatomical female equivalent of male circumsision would be the cutting off of the clitoral hood, NOT the cutting off of the clit.

I'm not for male circumsision other than in cases where it is justified (eg countries with high AIDS rates, other important medical reasons), but there is no way you can ever compare it to female genital mutilation. The long term side effects of male circumsision are not as bad - basically, females who have been cut cannot urinate or have their periods without it hurting, it is extremely rare for them ever to have orgasms, sex is usually excruciatingly painful, and giving birth too. Not to mention how dangerous it is as well. You can't even compare that to male circumsision, where there may be side effects, but they are not as drastic by far.

also, telling me that it is easier to tell people to cut off part of their cock, than it is to teach proper condom usage is an insult to humanity's intelligence. you are basically telling me they are to stupid to learn how to use a condom.

Was this in response to my post about Africa or just in general? Because nowhere did I say it had anything to do with intelligence, I say it has all to do with lack of education, poverty and cultural indoctrination. I definitely think proper condom usage should be taught, but I think that to know how dire the situation actually is, you need to go there for yourself and see how AIDS is destroying the continent... and then you'll realise that anything at all which can be done to prevent the virus spreading further should be done. Male circumsision is not so drastic that it should be shunned if it could contribute to solving the problem of HIV in countries with high infection rates. I think to do so is just to look at it from a very selfish Western point of view.
 
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<<<Circumcised.

I really don't care, and don't know what all the fuss is about.

Would I circumcise my own kids? Probably not, but more because I feel it's wholly unnecessary, than out of a sense of righteous indignation. All I care about my own penis is that it works, and circumcision is just SOP when I was young. I might as well regret that as regret getting slapped on my ass, or staying hooked to my umbilical cord until it stopped pulsing, like some "gentle birth" advocates insist.
 
I dont consider myself brainwashed in any way and I am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours fn :)
 
dreamgirlie19 said:
I dont consider myself brainwashed in any way and I am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours fn :)


That's the problem I have with some of the comments on here. By labeling everyone who is "pro" as uneducated about the procedure and that they are brainwashed just because they don't share your point of view seems childish. I don't see anyone on here who is "pro" calling the "anti" side uneducated or brainwashed. Seems to me we don't have to resort to name calling to convey our point. Sad you have to.
 
keiths31 said:
Just a question to throw out there...

Anyone who has been circumcised as a baby, feel cheated in any way?

Do you hate your parents for doing it? .


I am cut and yes I do feel cheated.

Yes I am angry with my parents for following the most stupid societal expectation i have ever heard of.

To be honest I am shocked that nobody has sued there parents for doing this yet............its barbaric.

I cannot believe there are people saying they are uncut and yet want to have there children cut...........it disgusts me.

Thankfully, at least here in Australia, societies silly ideas in this regard are ficghting a lost battle as less and less kids are circumsized,.

It makes me happy to know that my country at least is starting to climb out of the stone ages.
 
I'm circumcised. its not rele that big of a deal. but I do know that it is a religious custom for Jews (I'm jewish) and that it is seen as unclean if we're uncurcumcised. I guess you can say its similar to keeping kosher (not eating certain unclean meats and shellfish)
 
I'm intact and I love it.
It's never been an issue with men or women.

Plus you can do fun things with it like put it over a woman's clit or a guy's cock head! ;) Also, stamina/lasting is all mental.
 
Glitter - Thank you for providing your perspective. Cultural relevance has more weight than the average Westerner realizes. I am sorry so much of Africa is ravaged by AIDS - I see it in my own community of San Francisco, but for far different reasons. And San Francisco is no example of an average US city (we pay too much to live here not to have made a conscious choice to do so).

I do, however, ask that the recent studies be assimilated with an open mind. If the foreskin facilitates HIV transmission, then I see the point of removing it. I have made what one might call an executive decision to not circumsize any sons I might have, because I plan to metaphorically smack the sense into them that we live in a dangerous world (all over), parents need to educate their children to use condoms...

but I don't see the necessity to cut off a foreskin in order to do so based on a handful of studies. I'm confident my sons (if any) will be smart enough to decide for themselves if they wish to remain intact ot choose an elective circumcision.
 
So is there going to be a poll???

I'd like one for males on cut or not cut, and an open poll on what you prefer, cut or not cut.

I don't understand why this is such a big issue? I have ZERO memory of the procedure and have had no issues at all from it. Who the fuck cares??

Parents make many decisions for their children including immunisation and breast feeding. Generally these decisions are fine and relevant to the society and culture that they grow up in. I don't know anyone, cut or intact that has an issue with how their dick looks or performs.

And whats wrong with tradition??? Thats what cultures are born on. My kids will be looking just like dad.
 
I'll respond to individual posts when work calms down a bit. In the meantime, some reading material:

Doctors and Children's Groups Say Male Circumcision Must Be Voluntary, Consensual

National Institutes of Health's Endorsement of Adult Male Circumcision Leaves Question of Infant Circumcision Unanswered

12/15/2006 1:22:00 AM

To: National and International desks, Health Reporter

Contact: Matthew Hess of MGMbill.org, 208-330-8435 or [email protected]

SAN DIEGO, Calif., Dec. 15 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Physicians and children's rights advocates are calling on the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) to formulate a clear policy on male circumcision so that minors are protected from being circumcised for medically unnecessary reasons. The plea follows Wednesday's NIH announcement that findings from two new African clinical trials show that adult male circumcision helped protect men from acquiring the HIV/AIDS virus over a 15-month period.

The first trial in Kisumu, Kenya, of 2,784 HIV-negative men showed a 53 percent reduction of HIV acquisition in circumcised men relative to uncircumcised men, while the second trial of 4,996 HIV-negative men in Rakai, Uganda, showed that HIV acquisition was reduced by 48 percent in circumcised men. The trials were originally scheduled to continue until mid-2007, but the NIAID Data and Safety Monitoring Board halted them early after deeming the interim data sufficient enough to draw conclusions.

"The only complete protection against HIV is safe sex and any decision to circumcise should be made by the owner of the foreskin when he is able to give informed consent," says David Smith, who is general manager of NORM-UK, a UK based foreskin health charity. "The British Medical Association (BMA) has recently revised their 2003 guidance on the law and ethics of male circumcision. The revised guidance dated June 2006 reaffirms the statement 'to circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate'".

In the UK, non-therapeutic male circumcision is not available on the National Health Service, and a Korean study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang, published in the online edition of British Journal of Urology earlier this month, found that "circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings". The study confirms widespread reports from men who claim that circumcision has damaged their sex lives.

Paul M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, a Los Angeles pediatrician and author of the book "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision", said that the male foreskin has sensory and protective functions that are lost after circumcision. "The foreskin contains a rich concentration of blood vessels and nerve endings that are designed to enhance sexual pleasure," said Fleiss. "And just as the eyelids protect the eyes, the foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. These functions make it ethically imperative that circumcision only be performed on adults who have given their consent."

Dr. Dean Edell, syndicated radio host of "The Dr. Dean Edell Show" and anchor of "Medical Minutes", a series of ten weekly radio medical reports, said that using routine male circumcision to prevent AIDS is flawed logic. "AIDS is caused by a virus, not by the foreskin," said Edell. "The foreskin is one of several possible entrance points for the AIDS virus to infect the body, but that does not mean that you should cut the entrance off. It means that you should protect the entrance, either by using condoms or by practicing safe sex. If some men want to undergo circumcision because they feel it will make them safer, then they should be free to do so. But we need to draw the line when it comes to circumcision of children, which is done without consent of the patient. The common sense thing to do here is to make circumcision an option for adults only."

Although female circumcision of minors was outlawed by Congress in 1996, a similar law does not exist to protect males. As a result, circumcision is still performed on nearly 60 percent of infant boys, either because the parents request it or because a doctor or religious advisor recommends it.

Matthew Hess, president of San Diego-based MGMbill.org, said that a consent law for male circumcision should be enacted by Congress to give men the same choices that women have when it comes to elective surgery. "The new NIH suggestion that adult male circumcision may be used as a tool to protect against AIDS is going to tempt many physicians to circumcise children as well. But removal of healthy, non-diseased tissue is elective surgery that should be the choice of the person who owns the body, not the choice of parents or physicians."

---

MGMbill.org has authored proposed federal and state legislation that would require men to be 18 years old before undergoing circumcision. The legislation is endorsed by 16 health and human rights groups, but has yet to be enacted into law.

http://www.usnewswire.com/

-0-

© 2006 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770

AND

A coalition of international medical experts and bioethicists denounce the National Institutes of Health (NIH) endorsement of circumcision as a solution to the HIV/AIDS crisis in Africa as being irresponsible.

George Denniston, MD (PRWEB) December 16, 2006 -- resident of the international group, Doctors Opposing Circumcision, says "The NIH suggestion is dangerous folly. Worse, the NIH plan will permit circumcised men to claim they are immune to HIV and engage in unsafe sex. In cultures where women are obliged to submit, this is a recipe for a human rights disaster to women on a massive scale. Safe-sex education and widespread availability of condoms are the only answers before a vaccine is developed."

Critics of the plan, which include the umbrella group International Coalition for Genital Integrity, note that traditional African cutting and scarring rituals, and even modern medical care, are both proven sources of HIV infection. Surgeries in villages where even clean water is a luxury are likely to prove risky. The coalition, which also opposes female genital mutilation (FGM), is also concerned that suggesting genital surgery is the solution to the AIDS crisis, ”will sustain FGM or introduce it where it is unknown, at the same time as the World Health Organization has pronounced the practice ‘genital torture,’” says Dan Bollinger, the group’s spokesperson.

The NIH has claimed that circumcising adult men is an effective way to stop the transmission of the virus that causes AIDS. However, even if true, this does NOT apply to America where the disease vectors are different and hygiene is not an issue. HIV/AIDS in Africa is spread by heterosexual transmission, while HIV/AIDS in the United States is spread by homosexual transmission and the sharing of IV drug needles.

Genital integrity groups are not the only ones questioning the NIH. Dr. Haanah Kibuuka of the Makerere University Walter Reed Project in Uganda has made the following recommendation to his countrymen, "Do not expose yourself to danger in the mistaken belief that since you are circumcised, you will not catch HIV."

Robert Van Howe, MD, Michigan State University says, “Factors such as the unknown complication rate of the procedure, the permanent injury to the penis, human rights violations and the potential for veiled colonialism need to be taken into account. Based on the best estimates, mass circumcision would not be as cost-effective as other interventions that have been demonstrated to be effective. Even if effective, mass circumcision as a preventive measure for HIV in developed countries is difficult to justify.”

http://prweb.com/releases/2006/12/prweb491707.htm
 
fairnymph said:
Any woman who rejects a man based on the status of his foreskin is a fucking idiot and not worthy of fucking, anyway. What other, narrow-minded, judgemental people think does not matter at all -- fuck them. Beyond that, the foreskin can act as a filter -- any woman too stupid and brainwashed to appreciate an intact man will be 'scared off' and good riddance! Your future son won't have to waste his time with immature, foolish females.
i totally fucking agree!

although coming from a girl who finds people slightly overweight as disgusting, this is ironic...but whatever.
 
I'm uncut and I love it. My friends used to make fun of me for it, oh well.
I haven't had a single girl say anything negative about it, in fact, a few of them like playing with it more b/c they like the foreskin.
I wouldn't want it done to me at this point and I won't do it if I have kids.
 
MazDan said:
I am cut and yes I do feel cheated.

Yes I am angry with my parents for following the most stupid societal expectation i have ever heard of.

To be honest I am shocked that nobody has sued there parents for doing this yet............its barbaric.

I cannot believe there are people saying they are uncut and yet want to have there children cut...........it disgusts me.

Ditto on all points, it is a mutilation and a human rights violation when performed on an infant PERIOD.

There is no medical justification for it, besides the nebulous health claims that get changed twice a decade and are total hogwash. Even if they had some merit name one other surgery to remove healthy normal body parts of infants to prevent a possible future disease that exists?

The reason this continues is that men in circumcising cultures do not want to face the sickening horrifying truth that when they were helpless infants they were strapped down and against their will their penis was mutilated and there was nothing they could do and they have had to live their whole life not knowing what they could have had. They have an easy choice and a hard choice, they can rationalize it and make themselves believe its a good thing or they can face what was done to them and what they lost. Most choose the first option so they must seek to perpetuate it on their own sons or they would have to face the sick truth. Women who are their lovers and mothers also do not want to face the truth of what happened.

Before I began foreskin restoration I had so little skin that during middle teen years erections became uncomfortable even painful, masturbation was horrible with constant chafing and skin tears. When I first saw a porn video of a women yanking an intact man it was a revelation, all my uncomfortable efforts versus the effortless gliding I saw. It was a shocking thing to realize I was not born that way that it was done to me, it was a very hard thing to face that no matter what I would never know that pleasure and normal functioning I was born with.

ANYONE WHO THINKS INFANT CIRC IS GOOD PLEASE LOOK AT THESE:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6584757516627632617&q=circumcision&hl=en

Video of a standard circumcision, it is not just a snip the foreskin has to be ripped from the glans with a probe, then crushed before being excised. It is a long and excruciating surgery that removes the most sensitive part of the male body and permanently changes the dynamics of masturbation and sex.
The amount of tissue removed is actually shocking when you see an intact adult penis.

http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/naturalresources

This site has non titillating pictures and animations of the intact penis so you can see the function of the foreskin in masturbation and sex, to provide a gliding mechanism. If you can see some euro or other porn with an intact man it is worth it to see it in action.
Its greatly reduces the friction in vaginal or anal intercourse, and allows masturbation with no need for lube.


Its difficult to make an informed decision when you don't even know what exactly you are missing.

EDIT: I wanted to add that circumcision should really be called penile reduction surgery, look at some adult before and after pics there is a noticeable reduction.

Also after I began foreskin restoration my penis noticeably hung looser and longer when flaccid, as before the skin was so tight it was held closer to my body.
Circumcision on an adult man fully informed is great no problem, when a serious sexual surgery is done on a unwilling infant it is mutilation and a human rights violation.
 
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I'm not circumcised. I don't see the point in cutting the skin off of the end of a baby's cock, but that's just me.

I don't like babies, they get on my nerves with their crying, so I don't care what body parts other people decide to hack off of their kids.
 
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