Circumcision MEGA MERGED poll and discussion

[sc4t]

fairnymph I respect your opinion but just because one person wants to do one thing regarding WHY, doesn't mean they are socially brainwashed. You seem to just love preaching about foreskin...I mean what if Beatlebot wanted to circumcise his/her sons at both based only upon family beliefs...? They doesn't have to feel that way just because most of society does, am I right?

You don't have to ridicule people just because you're against one thing and they want to think different. I don't mean to come off harsh and if I do, I apologize I just think what you said was extremely biased.

 

[fairnymph]

Perhaps I should have clarified. I would definitely consider 'family beliefs' a form of social brainwashing.

The only nonmedical reason for circumcision which I think has any merit (and even it is very limited -- I still oppose it, but not with the vehemence I oppose routine infant circumcision) is a religous one.

 

[posner]

Fairnymph-

For the sake of clarification, you are not for choice. You support the elimination of circumcision completely. The way you look down on circumcision is insulting to those who are circumcised (whether they chose it or not).

The way you sweepingly disregard the effect circumcision has on STD transmission is staggering. Your arch-conservative argument: Why don't those ignorant, poor morons use condoms? That seems incredibly similar to the arguments people make in this country regarding abstinence, abortion, take your pick. Your head in the sand attitude about what people should do either speaks to your woeful ignorance or suggests that you are intentionally disingenuous in order to sensationalize the issue.

You have made incredibly confident remarks about sensitivity and pleasure with neither the first-hand knowledge nor any medical proof to back it up. Since I have not read with confidence that there are any other benefits I am curious to hear what you come up with. (Your discussion of moisture is both fascinating and completely inapposite to any experience I've ever had or heard of, and you have quietly backed off your immunological discussion)

For the record, I don't know whether I would circumcise my son. I do know that if more studies come out like the NIH study, I would certainly lean towards having the procedure done.

 

[Johnny1]

Fairnymph-For the sake of clarification, you are not for choice.

Actually, she is for choice: the choice of the man who would be circumcised for his whole life without ever having a say in the matter. An adult man who was not circumcised as a baby can decide for himself to be circumcised at any time.

The parents are responsible for the welfare of their children, and have to make decisions, and this could also be considered a choice. But it's a choice being made by someone else, rather than the man who will have to live with the result.

 

[fairnymph]

You support the elimination of circumcision completely.

Are you seriously having that much trouble comprehending my posts? I have stated NUMEROUS times that I support the procedure where medically truly necessary, and of course for adults who choose it for themselves.

I really don't see any point in discussing anything with you further, although I will provide links, references/books etc because they will be good for anyone interested. You purposefully attribute various views to me wrongfully so I don't see how we can possibly have a worthwhile discussion.

 

[posner]

Okay, I accept that you think the procedure worthwhile when absolutely medically necessary (with a stress on both "absolutely" and "necessary").

However, you have certainly suggested, through innuendo, that the uncut choice is the right choice. You suggest that choice is important to you because to assert otherwise would lose you the support of others who oppose circumcision. However, you consistently describe the sheer horror of the procedure and the wonderful benefits of the foreskin and how people who get it done are "brainwashed," etc. Knowing what I know about surgery in general I would guess that the procedure would have far less repurcussions or dangers when done to a baby than when done to an adult. Please educate me as to how the procedure is far safer when done to adults than when done to babies. If you do, I implore you to stay away from the books sandwiched between "the Autobiography of L. Ron Hubbard" and "The Great Conspiracies of the 20th Century."

I still say that your views are all the more impressive in light of the fact that you don't have a penis and have no first hand knowledge of what circumcision is like or what being circumcised or uncircumcised is like.


You also consistently respond to one piece of a post. Your cherry picking is tiresome and discouraging.

 

[Finder]

The human body is, essentially, a perfect machine. Why mess with nature?

 

[posner]

The human body is, essentially, a perfect machine. Why mess with nature?

Yeah, with wisdom teeth and the appendix and all. Everything serves a critical function, or at least did at some point in human history.

 

[fairnymph]

Knowing what I know about surgery in general I would guess that the procedure would have far less repurcussions or dangers when done to a baby than when done to an adult. Please educate me as to how the procedure is far safer when done to adults than when done to babies.

ROFL.

If I responded to every part of every one of your posts, I'd have written a novel. I don't consider persuading you worth that, sorry. At least not right at this moment.

 

[keiths31]

Just a question to throw out there...

Anyone who has been circumcised as a baby, feel cheated in any way? Do you hate your parents for doing it? I for one do not hold any ill will towards my parents. I am not scarred for life, nor am I an emotional wreck.

Seems to me, that the men commenting are obviously in favour of what they have at this time, whether the have been circumcised or not. Kind of have to like your penis...

And anyone can find studies to prove their point and disclaim the other side. Fairynymph, for every study you provide, I am sure there is another one backing up the pro-circumcision point of view. I posted a news item that I read in the newspaper today...the only reason I posted it was because it made the news.

But I am surprised at the passion some of the women are arguing this. You all don't have penis'. How can you even relate? I made the decision to get my son circumcised and I don't regret it. I don't regret my parents getting mine done.

And who are you to say that people who are pro-circumcision are socially brainwashed? That is a pretty loaded statement. I don't think I could get away with saying all women who are pro-choice in regards to abortion are socially brainwashed. Aborted babies don't have a choice either, but that one is okay I guess. But if I started tell women that their beliefs on that topic were wrong I would be an ignorant ass.

 

[Finder]

Yeah, with wisdom teeth and the appendix and all. Everything serves a critical function, or at least did at some point in human history.

The difference is the appendix and wisdom teeth have no function.

 

[fairnymph]

Ugh, keith, is there any point in me even responding to you since you failed to even read/interpret my name correctly?

 

[keiths31]

Ugh, keith, is there any point in me even responding to you since you failed to even read/interpret my name correctly?

...sorry...dyslexic

 

[posner]

The one thing that I think you should respond to without some ridiculous analogy regarding outer ears or pulled teeth is how you can possibly suggest that the recently released studies are without merit.

The fact that it can prevent HIV transmission by up to 50% and can seriously reduce the spread of HPV, which is not only harder to protect against but can also lead to cervical cancer, surely suggests that the procedure is worth getting done.

The fact that you can so easily dismiss the HIV argument because you live in a wonderfully cozy place where no one is touched by the disease surely cannot prevent you from seeing how HPV is transmitted very easily (even potentially when you use protection) and a sizable portion of the population in America carries it. All this good for the sake of a piece of skin about which you know so little about.

 

[posner]

The difference is the appendix and wisdom teeth have no function.

Oh, there was a difference? Besides, your argument suggested that because the body is a "perfect machine" there was nothing to be gained by modifying it. However, if there are parts of your body that have no function, surely it could not be considered "perfect".

 

[wizekrak]

I'm uncircumcised and I can definitely attest to a difference in sensitivity for an exposed versus covered glans. It wasn't until my teens that I first began rolling back the foreskin (say what you will). Initially the sensitivity was almost too much to handle (probably analogous to a woman's clitoris and direct stimulation), all my "work" was done with the foreskin in place. Gradually with experience the skin began to loosen and the exposed head began receiving more friction. About a decade later there's a noticeable decrease in sensitivity from years of use (abuse?). Whether the loss of sensitivity is beneficial or a hinderance is up for grabs. Can I go balls to the wall because the exposed head no longer makes my legs twitch when it's touched when I'm aroused? yes. Does stimulation feel as intense? no, although it's still extremely pleasurable.

 

[Mariposa]

I doubt I want to have children, but if I change my mind and my child is a son, he will remain intact, and if he chooses to become circumcised as an adult

I find the intact penis much more aesthetically pleasing, and I have never seen smegma on ANY penis, circumcised or intact.

And honestly, if a mother can't keep her infant/toddler son's penis clean without resorting to having a doctor remove part of it, there are far bigger issues at hand. And if a guy can't keep his penis clean... ugh.

I am confident that this discussion can move forward in a constructive manner, but you all know the rules, so let's follow them and take conversations that need to go to PM to PM, OK?

If anyone wants the facts on many aspects of circumcision, see this Wiki article: WORK WARNING ON IMAGES CONTAINED WITHIN THIS ARTICLE

 

[Finder]

The fact that it can prevent HIV transmission by up to 50% and can seriously reduce the spread of HPV, which is not only harder to protect against but can also lead to cervical cancer, surely suggests that the procedure is worth getting done.

This is a pretty poor argument considering condoms reduce transmission of HIV and HPV by far more than the meager 50% you seem so amazed by while not permanently altering the body.

Oh, there was a difference? Besides, your argument suggested that because the body is a "perfect machine" there was nothing to be gained by modifying it. However, if there are parts of your body that have no function, surely it could not be considered "perfect".

I'm sure as humans evolve you'll start to see them without these traits as neither wisdom teeth nor the appendix have a useful function. A foreskin, however, does.

 

[AcidRain]

im uncut. .

don't see why people are so keen on mutilating babies

 

[huntmich]

I must say that I had, before this week, been very hostile towards people who had advocated circumcision as a means of slowing the transmission of HIV. Frankly, all of the previous "scientific" work that had been done was flawed in its manner of polling. However, the recent report by the NY Times that says that circumcision decreases HIV transmission by 53% has made me question my position.

I still do not think that, in Western society, circumcision is necessary. I will still NOT circumcise my children at birth; I will give them the option once I feel that they are old enough to make such an important decision. Safe sex is still vital in my book; I will basically teach my children the ABC method (Abstinence, [if that fails] Be faithful, and [always] use Condoms). I feel that, for my children, decreasing transmission rates by 50% is not enough; they must wear condoms basically until they are ready to be married (or have a similarly faithful monogamous relationship).

However, I do now believe (assuming that this new research does indeed hold water) that, worldwide, circumcision should be used, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE TEACHING OF PROPER SAFE SEX TECHNIQUES, as a means of slowing HIV/AIDS transmission. I think that money should be devoted to increased sanitary conditions in circumcision practices, so that HIV isn't actually TRANSMITTED in the surgical process itself. I also believe that this new research should NOT necessarily be relayed to those patients who are undergoing the procedure; I feel that if such knowledge were to be released, condom usage would actually DECLINE. This should not be promoted as anything close to an HIV cure.

This research has certainly shaken the belief I recently held in regards to the worldwide practice of circumcision. However, it has certainly not changed my attitude towards it in a personal sense.