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Christians and Aliens

Journyman16

Journyman16

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Nov 26, 2014
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OK, this thread is NOT about whether or not you believe in a Christian faith or belive in alien visitations (of whichever kind) but instead meant to be an examination about the topic.

Here's my thing...

We are taught that, because Adam and Eve failed the test, we all became subject to Law. That went on with ups and downs for the Hebrews/Israelites until the advent of the Christ. He came to Earth as a man to live, suffer and die as a sacrifice for our sin and redeem us, so henceforth we have only to declare belief and acceptance of his sacrifice to be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

So in a world where the (possibly fake) Pope has declared an acceptance of the possibility of Aliens, there are some questions that have some ugly answers.

Of all the races in the Universe, how many failed the garden of Eden test?

If all, then clearly it was not a test but a requirement. In which case, WHY ARE WE PUNISHED?

If only some failed, where are those who passed the test? Is that why God went aaway/ He had better children to visit with?

So... for the failures... do they ALL get the Christ to come and die for them? What kind of father gets his son to go skipping across the Universe living life after life designated as a sacrifice to die in pain for species after species?

If the Christ only came for us, why are we special and are all other races doomed to go to Hell like the Church treated everybody who'd never heard of Jesus?

Does anybody NOT see how ugly this gets? Kinda makes Lucifer look like a bringer of light... doncha think? :D
 
This thread isn't about Christianity. You're referring to Genesis, which is one of the books of Moses in the Torah.
I don't understand the link between Jesus and Adam & Eve... ?

Anyway, the Eden allegory is an early attempt at explaining the latter stages of evolution, when the human race departed from nature.

The test was designed to "fail", at a certain point.
In order for the human race (Adam & Eve) to depart from nature (Eden), they had to "fail" to live by the rules of nature.
Man was banished from Eden (nature), because - at that point in his development - his actions made it impossible for him to remain there.

God said "don't eat that fruit" >> meaning that every species exists within the food chain and has it's place.
By eating the fruit and disobeying the laws of nature, man departed from nature and the food chain.

How are we being punished?
The negative consequences of departing from nature, are less than the benefits.
We cannot go back, in other words, but why would we want to?
Do you want to be a goat?
Is being a man really a punishment?

If only some failed, where are those who passed the test?
Click to expand...

Those who passed the test weren't banished from nature.
They didn't develop technology.
They are still animals.
It is an allegory.

Is that why God went aaway
Click to expand...

God didn't go away.

...

(You don't seem to understand the story of Adam & Eve at all.)

...

Aliens, presumably, will have different stories that perform similar functions.
Like how different cultures on Earth have different creation/evolutionary myths.
 
Actually I understand more than you might think about Adam and Eve. And you seem to have misunderstood the reason they were mentioned.

But just to add some more... the story is almost exactly wrong.

Adam MUST HAVE come from Eve, not the other way around. Genetics says so - the Y chromosome is quite clearly a modified X chromosome. So the original was an X.

And you can add to that the way a zygote develops - when it is about 3 weeks old the production of testosterone takes over for a male. Interfere with that and what you get is a female with XY chromosomes. Again, evidence the basic model is female and males are an adaptation.

Allegory in Genesis or not, the Christ story is clearly what Christians believe and the rest of my post is a valid question - do we see a Christ going through eons of being crucified or drowned or burned or stripped alive etc. just so all those failed races can be redeemed? Did anyone else pass the test?

If the intent was for us to remain animals then the whole human story is about as fucked as it can be - God punished us for daring to become what he designed us to be? And again the question goes further - did he also do that to all the races out there across the universe? If so, we look on the face (or arse if Moses is to be believed :D) of pure evil. If not, how unfair is God that only we get a 2nd chance? And if it only us, how evil is God to create all those other races with no chance for redemption?

NOW do you see the rabbit hole?
 
To "pass" the "test" is to remain an animal.

The intent wasn't for us to remain animals.

We were supposed to "fail" the "test".

You're getting too bogged down with literalism. Forget the word test, for a moment.

Animals are not capable of sin.

Humans are burdened with "original sin", because we no longer obey a stringent code as our ancestral species did.
We consume our predators. With the power of technology, we are no longer limited as to what we can do.
But there has to be some kind of law.

So, we create our own laws.
We govern ourselves.
That is our punishment.
We are burdened with knowledge and responsibility.

"Artificial" law is an inevitability of humanity (or, of being separate from the animal species).

You're trying to make it out like God is some sick sadistic pervert that sets innocent creatures up to suffer.

You don't understand God.

To call God "evil" indicates that you don't understand the stories in the Bible.
There is nothing remotely evil about the motives for His actions, if you comprehend them.

As for the chicken and the egg thing, how can you possible expect Genesis - an ancient allegory - to know more about our chromosomal makeup than we do know? It isn't an all encompassing passage, containing all wisdom in all fields for all eternity. Like all stories, it is imperfect. If you dissected passages and scrutinize them to standards that are impossible to meet, you can and will find whatever you like.

NOW do you see the rabbit hole?
Click to expand...

No.
 
For me, the preceding discussion only cements the fact that the decision to follow Jesus has always been and always will be a personal one. As Jesus says quite clearly in the NT, "Who do YOU say that I am?" You personally, not what your bookshelf full of philosophical works might say. It's never going to wash that our decisions around Him are based on what others may have said. Finding a quiet place to prevent all the distractions of our everyday lives from pulling us one way or another, and then in that quiet place openly asking God to reveal Himself to you - earnestly and from the heart - doing that will begin what can only be described as the 'incredible journey'. Because our God is faithful and does not toy with us.
 
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Preaching aside... I understand the stories quite well. I apply standards I have hard-fought across decades to live up to. I got the basics for those ethics from looking at how what I do affects others, using empathy and understanding of how I would feel were it done to me to decide what I see as good.

God is definitely not up to my standards, From Adam and Eve through Job and even into the Christian era, the bible is full of acts so vile that if it weren't the bible we'd be calling for an international sanction of the people doing it.

We do not make children pay for the crimes of their parents. We do not hold it to be fair to set people up to fail - we call it entrapment and there are laws against it. We hold it reprehensible to destroy a man's life simply to win a bet. We find it abhorrent to watch one nation invade another simply because their religion tells them to. We have international laws against simply taking a large mob into a town and killing/raping/pillaging.

The list goes on, and on, and on...

So, given all that, the possibility there are aliens brings a very ugly set of possibilities. Rather than preach at me, perhaps you both might try to address the question - is there any way the alien question does NOT turn the whole Christian idea into a horror story? Does the Christ go from planet to planet, constantly moaning about being forsaken and being tortured to return God's many-faced 'children' to grace? Are we alone in the Fall? Does everyone Fall?

They're the opinions/ideas I'd like to see, not just Christians lecturing me about their beliefs. Been there, done that.
 
God is definitely not up to my standards, From Adam and Eve through Job and even into the Christian era, the bible is full of acts so vile that if it weren't the bible we'd be calling for an international sanction of the people doing it.
Click to expand...

Try to take a step away from literalism.

We do not make children pay for the crimes of their parents.
Click to expand...

I've already explained what original sin means.

We hold it reprehensible to destroy a man's life simply to win a bet.
Click to expand...

The story of Job didn't actually happen. It's an allegory.

We find it abhorrent to watch one nation invade another simply because their religion tells them to.
Click to expand...

The Bible doesn't dictate which nations to invade, and when.

We have international laws against simply taking a large mob into a town and killing/raping/pillaging.
Click to expand...

The laws in the Bible are against this.

Rather than preach at me, perhaps you both might try to address the question - is there any way the alien question does NOT turn the whole Christian idea into a horror story? Does the Christ go from planet to planet, constantly moaning about being forsaken and being tortured to return God's many-faced 'children' to grace? Are we alone in the Fall? Does everyone Fall?
Click to expand...

Your question is founded on misunderstanding.

You don't understand the basic functionality of the Adam & Eve analogy.

I'm not Christian. But, you are taking a big shit on Christianity.

You seem to have an axe to grind with Jesus?

...

If your question was more general an less aimed at shitting on Christianity, you might have received a more civilized response.

I think what you're asking, generally, is:

1. Will aliens create religion, upon departing from their respective food chains.
2. Will they recreate the story of Adam & Eve, or come up with another allegorical explanation?
3. If they recreate Adam & Eve, will they recreate Jesus?

Here are my answers:

1. Probably.
2. Unlikely.
3. Unlikely.

(Based, solely, on observations of other cultures on Earth.)
 
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Humans ate the forbidden fruit!
Humans killed jesus!
I don't see why, 1.this scenario is a template for other species choices, 2.god has a twisted plan
 
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I don't think I am shitting on Christianity at all - I'd have been much more direct about it if so. Blame the Pope, he brought the subject up. :D

The bible definitely DOES tell the Israelites which towns and countries to go invade, which cities to rape, pillage and murder the inhabitants of and even worse things. Direct from God to the Israelites. God went and murdered all the first born just to make a point to Pharaoh.

You may have ideas about original sin, Adam and Eve and even Job, but the bible is supposed to be the written word of God - it doesn't say Job is fictional, so I'd guess the idea that he is could be because you don't like the implications. Original sin is exactly what it is - Adam and Eve sinned in the garden and everybody ever born since is punished for it - we are born in sin, it says.

And no, I am NOT asking those questions. I would have said so if I was. I'm asking, or at least giving a view, of what it means if there are alien races out there in terms of what Christians call the inviolate Word of God. It seems pretty simple to me - unless we'd like to propose that ONLY humans ever got to be created by God, the rest follows.

And if we ARE the only ones and the only race to get Jesus, what are those other poor bastards going to do come judgement day?
 
The story of Adam & Eve is originally from the Epic of Gilgamesh.
The Epic of Gilgamesh was not a literal text.

Job was authored anonymously, and it (The Book of Job) follows a traditional mythic/allegorical structure.
I'm not sure how you know, without question, that is was meant to be interpreted literally.
You can't honestly require all texts ever written to say "fictional" at the beginning of them?

We are born in sin because humans are sinful by their nature, in the sense that animals are incapable of sin and not held accountable for their actions.
As I said earlier, our punishment is that of responsibility and knowledge.
People don't like the way it is worded. "Born in sin."

When I said you're taking a shit on Christianity, what I meant is this: You don't appear to really want to facilitate a discussion. It seems like you want to disprove your incorrect interpretation of scripture, by literal dissection of thousands year old allegories in deep space. You're asking fake questions. You don't believe in Christ, yet you're posing sarcastically as someone who does. Tonally, you mock Christian belief systems without outright spreading your checks and taking a shit in the center of the Bible.
 
A shame about some attitudes but actually, whatever is said about God, He cannot be mocked. He is far higher and bigger than that. As if His Kingdom will cease to roll out over the generations because of some vehement yet punitive human argument set up against Him. All will come out in the Great Wash!
 
I'd be cautious about assigning stories to fable. Gilgamesh appears to have been a real person - about a decade ago there was news a group had found his burial place. Others mentioned in the Sumerian and Akkadian texts have been identified as real so there is no reason to assume Gilgamesh is not.

We are not born in sin at all. Babies are born innocent and our system turns them into sinners. The born in sin is just a manipulative tool, just like making us guilty for thinking about sex is also manipulative - what better way to use the guilt button than to make sex illegal?

I do NOT know they are meant to be taken literally but the Christians do - even on here you will find posters insisting the bible is the actual word of God. And there is nothing except academics' interpretations to say Job wasn't a real figure. You may wish to believe he wasn't but that's just a belief - and one that is irrelevant to the topic anyway.

Again, this is about what happens to the Christian story if there are really aliens. Casting red herrings and strawman arguments might be fun but it has nothing to do with the topic. One might think you're scared to discuss what is proposed. While the initial posts (ignoring the preaching ones) talked about Adam and Eve the contention that I was talking about Genesis and not Christianity is wrong - Adam and Eve are fundamental to the Christian Religion and the death of the Christ is what is being questioned.

Given the creation of Man, the 'test' (which you agree was designed to fail, which is another can of worms altogether) and the expulsion from the garden, once the Pope opened the door for Christianity to accept aliens, it seems to me to be an immediate and quite natural question - what do aliens do to the central story of Christianity.

You may wish to see this as me somehow dumping on the bible but that is merely your defence mechanism - I think you do not wish to discuss it because you can't see any good result for your beliefs, so it is better to distract and digress and cast aspersions on me than to continue the conversation.
 
@ Ransom Itch - believe as you wish. I am always puzzled why people of set beliefs bother to post in topics with which they clearly have an antipathy. Your last post comes across more as a passive-aggressive curse on me than anything else - hardly a Christian attitude.
 
No, I'm not going to continue contributing. I'm not afraid of continuing, I'm just not enjoying engaging with you and I don't think we're getting anywhere.
You've got everything worked out. (You don't.) You're not open-minded. There doesn't seem to be any room for discussion.

You may wish to see this as me somehow dumping on the bible but that is merely your defence mechanism
Click to expand...

I can point out exact moments throughout this thread where your tone has been inappropriate and disrespectful towards Christianity.
You're just another blind intellectual, with very little understanding of the Bible, passive aggressively shitting on it in public.
You don't say, outright, that the Christian interpretation of the Bible is fucked, or that the Bible is fucked, so you can maintain deniability.
I'm tired of attempting to stand up for theology. It's exhausting, trying to get through to smug academics with no spiritual understanding.
 
*grins* Yes... of course... it's all me.

And I never thought I'd be called an academic - so many of them perform just like you I figured I was clearly an antithesis of such people.

Please note, you never actually tried to discuss the subject, you just started in on me about what I was saying about Christianity - which all by itself shows you can see the subject is unlikely to turn out well for the Religion.

Can't have a conversation if you become instantly adversarial now can we?
 
Another deep and meaningful contribution from you. Weren't you so sick of not addressing topics you were leaving my threads? Did you lie or was it just that one thread you promised to go away in?
 
You accused me of never trying to contribute to this thread.
I'm permitted to respond to a direct accusation.

I am the only person who has contributed to this thread.
I answered the question about aliens, briefly, and I individually addressed practically every element of the topic in detail.

And, I never said I'm not going to contribute to any threads that you're involved in.
 
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