Christianity & Islam: Are Either of them a Religion of Peace?

[zephyr]

Ant, Im sorry mate. Its the weekend and Im sketchy as man, Ill try again with some meaty bites regarding religion.

I actually do not think Islam is the baddest religion, probably Christianity is to be honest ,I am a christian officially so dont follow it as I think its shit.

Dont stress about threads, some get pretty tense and some don't, just depends on whats gone up our noses and periods mainly.

 

[spacejunk]

It would be easier to have flexibility (for change) as a religious person if people were more open minded and listened to what you have to say and really tried to convince you rather than writing you off as unfixable and giving you old answers to other people's questions. Same with right wing people versus left wing people, I think... In both directions.

Perhaps you would benefit from taking your own advice here and listening to what people have to say, rather than condemning a faith that is held by billions of people?

Isn't Islam really bad?
By a huge margin the worst religion ever?

No. Absolutely not.

I have a lot of time for muslim people, personally. I may not follow their religion or agree with lots of the belief systems, but when people say "islam is bad", they're not criticising, analysing or debating the religion or the beliefs of its followers, they are going into "religious bigotry" territory.

My understanding of christianity is that a lot of it comes back to the golden rule - "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
That's just as applicable to this conversation as it is to anything; you don't have to love islam, but it is a sign of maturity - and, frankly, decency - to respect other people's right to hold their own beliefs, regardless of whether you share those beliefs.

I have many gripes with christianity - from the efforts of missionaries to covert the whole world, to condemning contraception in over-populated developing nations, to the socially conservative political agenda of some churches, and the way they push against marriage equality and that sort of thing.
Also, in terms of theology and philosophy, i don't believe in god.

But i don't have an issue with christian people. I respect what they believe, and their right to believe it.
To me, that's a fundamental part of being a "peaceful" person - mutual respect and acceptance of other people's beliefs and culture.
I'm not sure what you really hope to achieve in condemning islam.
Some people might agree with you, but so what?
Maybe you'd find it helpful to talk to some muslim people and see if it can help you understand them better.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah, the VAST majority of Muslims are horrified and appalled by the actions of the minority extremists and saddened by the damage they have done to the public perception of their belief system. Do you know any Muslims well, Ant? I think you'll find that they barely resemble the ones you fear.

 

[PearlBoots]

^that.
Also, Islam is the second largest religion in the world. If they TRULY were so bad/evil/dangerous whatever, we would have all been done for by now.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

you don't have to love islam, but it is a sign of maturity - and, frankly, decency - to respect other people's right to hold their own beliefs, regardless of whether you share those beliefs

Nobody has put forward a sensible argument as to how Islam is not the most violent religion and I don't - on principal - respect opinions that have no logical basis. I believe that this opinion is produced from fear and I think it is my responsibility to not respect it.

the VAST majority of Muslims are horrified and appalled by the actions of the minority extremists

I'm not talking about extremists. I find the opinions of moderate, average Muslims offensive... there are huge populations of people that would rather I be dead because of my lifestyle. These are not extremists. They are quite open about it. If you have a Muslim person over for tea, they won't openly judge you. But, you can determine public opinion by looking at polls. Officials for the Islamic church preach anti-Western hatred and - as I've said - the basic goal of Islam is world domination... You can just scoff and assume I'm speaking nonsense, or you can look for yourself.

Islam is a different value system. It is not compatible my values.

For example, there have been numerous Islamic children married to middle aged Islamic men in this country. They know it's illegal. They know we think it's immoral. But, they don't care. It happens in Islamic churches with dozens of Islamic people watching. The last one was a fourteen year old girl - I think - that they married off to a forty something year old guy... And, sure, you can say that times were different when Jesus was around. But, it's the year 2000. By modern standards, this is clearly an awful religion.

Do you know any Muslims well, Ant? I think you'll find that they barely resemble the ones you fear.

I used to live in a country with a large Muslim population and I found - consistently - that the Muslim youth were conflicted about their religion and this contributed to an instability that wasn't present in the non Muslim youth. But, even if that was not the case, having a cup of tea with someone who doesn't murder you is no indication of whether or not a religion is violent. I never said all Muslims are maniacs. Some Christians are much worse than some Muslims. People are making assumptions about my perspective here and labelling me Islamophobic or something... Try responding to what I actually say.

I'm not afraid of the average Muslim. I think Islam is a threat. Look at the projected population of Islam in 50/100 years. Look at what they're saying in their churches... This is an organisation that kills people for exercising their freedom of speech on the other side of the planet.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

when people say "islam is bad", they're not criticising, analysing or debating the religion or the beliefs of its followers, they are going into "religious bigotry" territory.

I've explained why it's bad. My criticisms have been fleshed out. Ignoring my very specific criticisms and calling me a bigot is ridiculous. Just read what I wrote... Somebody said that the death toll isn't a good way to determine if a religion is violent. I meant to respond to that. But, I forgot about it.

While I relied heavily on it, I didn't solely use the death toll.

There are numerous factors contributing to Islam being the most dangerous religion.

I went into the death toll (in comparison to Christianity) and showed that - with Islam - the rate of murder has been fairly consistent. Since Islam has existed, it has caused a very high rate of death. There are very few exceptions.

But, beyond the death toll, look at the state of the religion now versus the state of Christianity now. Look at how they treat women. Look at how they treat homosexuals. Look at how they treat people who leave the religion. While Christianity has reformed majorly, Islam remains brutally archaic. It is responsible for more harm to the human race than any other organisation - religious or otherwise.

Not only do I think it is the worst religion, I think it is worse than any political system.

I think it is the worst thing the human race has produced... and I get that is offensive to people who think Mohammed is God-like. But, he's not a God. He's a murderer and a rapist... and, no, that is not a matter of opinion. He writes about being a murderer and rapist in the Qur'an.

Mohammed was a warlord and a rapist. Whereas Jesus is a symbol of purity and self-sacrifice....

That's all perspective. Actually in most people's eyes at the time, Jesus was terrible. He challenged their government, for example.
He very well may have been a "terrorist" in their eyes.

Yeah I guess it's a matter of perspective about whether or not having sex with children and murdering people while they're sleeping is better or worse than objecting to social norms and forced religious practices...

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

It is cowardly to refuse to see Islam for what it is.
It is at the long-term expense of people suffering under it's reign.

I've never encountered an entire forum that defends Islam like this.

Perhaps you would benefit from taking your own advice here and listening to what people have to say, rather than condemning a faith that is held by billions of people?

I am listening. People keep saying that. If there's something in particular that I'm not responding to that you think is significant - or if there are multiple things that you think I'm neglecting - please let me know and I will reply when I get a moment. My life is kind of frantic. I type very fast. I'm trying to read and reply to everything, but it's sort of me versus an entire forum and I have a baby... So, it's a bit difficult.

A couple of people have made this odd argument that Islam can't be as bad as I say because it's so popular.

You just said I shouldn't condemn a faith held by billions of people.

But if this was a cult - that wasn't associated with mainstream religion or race - and there were 3000 members and they behaved EXACTLY like Islam behaves, nobody on this forum would defend them. This thread would be very different... Why is that?

 

[zephyr]

^ I don't think you are a bigot, hey we don't even know you that well yet. It's a bit easier to get srs with people that are familiar, it's easy to get responses a little off base too

Come post around and get to know people, you'll get more replies from others then.

Bigotry is not a rare affliction, I would assume most people have some sort of derogatory opinion about a group of people in one way or another. It's not allowed here to use a bigot slur as an insult in an aggressive manner against another blr, you have not done that and are just expressing your concerns over Islam's history and body count right?

That's pretty common I think.

I do not really share this view because Islam is comprised of so many different sects, many dont even remotely recognize the other so that population of muslims is not what it seems.

Most fighting are Muslim to muslim, if the entire population were as one, Islam would not have a problem taking control over everyone, for a while.

It wont happen, and I dont think sharia law is a big issue either, I dont know a lot about it clearly so cant comment on it.


Im not defending Islam, I dont have the energy right now to point out some negative aspects of that religion, it's not all flowers and rainbows clearly, I just dont think it's the issue, people using it as a method of recruiting terrorists and bombers is the issue, Islsm does not condone that any more than Jesus does.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

All I'm gonna say to you, Ant, is that you appear to be on a crusade here, and you're debating in worse faith than anyone else here who has offered an opinion. Respect is earned, not given. Have a good sit-down and think about how you're presenting yourself here in an honest manner.

Everyone can skip all the patronising crap about how I'm presenting myself and that I should be respectful. I haven't used any foul language. Other people have. I haven't called anyone any names. Other people have. Yet, I don't patronise them... Maybe you should have a sit-down and think about whether or not it makes sense to go on the internet and tell adults to go have a sit-down and think about how they're presenting themselves. Maybe you should have a sit-down and think about Islam.

 

[zephyr]

Ok .

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

I really liked your post zephyr. Best response, from anyone, so far.

I do not really share this view because Islam is comprised of so many different sects, many dont even remotely recognize the other so that population of muslims is not what it seems.

Let's break it down. Actually think about Islam. Think about what it means to be Islamic. Think about the history of Islam. Do you want to see this religion clearly? Is Donald Trump worse than Islam? How so? What - or Who - is worse than Islam? What individual has done more harm to the world than Mohammed?

Im not defending Islam, I dont have the energy right now to point out some negative aspects of that religion, it's not all flowers and rainbows clearly, I just dont think it's the issue, people using it as a method of recruiting terrorists and bombers is the issue, Islsm does not condone that any more than Jesus does.

Islam is a religion that is written by it's major prophet and it has passages that describe how to treat sex slaves that you claim after murdering their family. It is a religion created by a warlord, murdering rapist. It is entirely written by one man - the prophet - and therefore none of it can be deemed more or less necessary than anything else.

When Mohammed was an old man he married a little girl. He already had many wives, but I guess he was bored with them. The passages between Mohammed and Aisha are disturbing. You (and others) seem to be suggesting that it's a matter of interpretation and that there is little difference between the New Testament and the Qur'an.

But, nobody is responding to certain things.

Let's all just shuffle around the fact that he's a rapist and a murderer and that Jesus was a pacifist, shall we?

 

[Xorkoth]

Everyone can skip all the patronising crap about how I'm presenting myself and that I should be respectful. I haven't used any foul language. Other people have. I haven't called anyone any names. Other people have. Yet, I don't patronise them... Maybe you should have a sit-down and think about whether or not it makes sense to go on the internet and tell adults to go have a sit-down and think about how they're presenting themselves. Maybe you should have a sit-down and think about Islam.
[/COLOR]

Whatever man, you're the one being difficult and patronizing/condescending/insulting ("It is cowardly to refuse to see Islam for what it is" for example), the rest of us are just stating our opinions in reply to yours, and they happen to disagree with yours and for some reason this is making you upset. Are we all supposed to be buckling under the weight of your iron-clad logic and changing our opinions without argument? The reason I asked you to think about how you're presenting yourself is because you're doing exactly what you're asking others to not do to you.

I'll come back later to address some of your points in your recent posts because I'm just taking a breather from chainsawing up a fallen tree in my yard. In the meantime, can you convince me why Islam is worse than Christianity? Keeping in mind that at different times in history Christianity was much more terrible than it currently is. Also keeping in mind there is a lot of misinformation being spread about "the average Muslim" these days as a result of fear brought on by terrorist groups. The average Muslim does not want non-Muslims to die. You're thinking of extremists.

To be honest, any "ism" or religious group is bad because it tries to draw people in group-think (ie, accepting as irrefutable the tenets put forth by the leaders of a group) and is very easily corruptible.

 

[SheWasLvL18]

The thing is Christianity has equally disgusting things in it's texts. Do you not believe that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have similar core tenets and, as Abrahamic religions, largely stem from the same stories and peoples (Semitic People)?

What do you say about Christian terrorists? Like the Olympic Park Bombing or the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[PearlBoots]

When Mohammed was an old man he married a little girl. He already had many wives, but I guess he was bored with them. The passages between Mohammed and Aisha are disturbing. You (and others) seem to be suggesting that it's a matter of interpretation and that there is little difference between the New Testament and the Qur'an.

Wait. Are we just going to leave all the terrible things from the old testament out? There goes that cherry picking again. NB4 it's said, Jesus is/was "God". He was his son, as well as god himself. (He isn't just relevant in the new testament)
John 14:9 "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father."

Old testament God was kind of a dick tbh.

 

[spacejunk]

i'm kinda confused about the aim of this thread.
don't like islam? ok - fine. so what?

please bear in mind that we have this in our user agreement -

post or upload any content that victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reason;

if you want to start a thread that consists of everyone pouring hate on muslims, bluelight is not the right forum for it.

i think the topic is too broad to be particularly meaningful.
by that i mean - what is "christianity" or "islam"? there is no singular example of either - both represent massive amounts of different people, different ideas and different institutions.

Islam is a different value system. It is not compatible my values.

my values are in not compatible with your values either, because i consider religious bigotry to be just another type of crass prejudice. so what?


personally i don't really have any interest in engaging with this thread any further because i have no patience for bigotry.

you really need to drop the attitude if you want to have an enjoyable time posting here.
our staff are all volunteers who are very patient if they can see that you are being sincere and making an effort to make constructive contributions.
you need to drop the name calling and cool it, as others have gently suggested also, if you want to get along here.

 

[PearlBoots]

Some 25 million people have died in the name of Christianity.
Over 300 million people have died in the name of Islam.

***I'm really not trying to shit on you/your opinion, honestly.
But, once again neglecting the ugly side of Christianity. Europeans literally raped almost the entire world in the name of Christianity for hundreds, if not thousands of years. (I don't mean just literal rape, but it's fitting nonetheless).

I'm not pointing out the contradictions to belittle you, just hope you see for yourself. I'm not in any way anti-christian either. I just personally choose to see, or at least try to see, all sides and accept them equally.

 

[|~~ANT~~|]

Maybe you'd find it helpful to talk to some muslim people and see if it can help you understand them better.

Like I said, I used to live in a country with a large Muslim population. I'm not ignorant... During the third Reich, there were a lot of nice polite people who were part of a horrible system. Niceness is not evidence of anything.


I regret not saying something to a particular young Muslim guy we used to drink with. He was under so much pressure... But, what do you say? Still, I imagine his life and it haunts me.


It's funny that you endorsed that Sacha Baron Cohen TV show in another thread. You said you don't empathise with the people targeted by Cohen, because they're fascists... Yet Muslims are basically extreme conservatives, aren't they?


Strange how the left embraces them.

***I'm really not trying to shit on you/your opinion, honestly.
But, once again neglecting the ugly side of Christianity. Europeans literally raped almost the entire world in the name of Christianity for hundreds, if not thousands of years. (I don't mean just literal rape, but it's fitting nonetheless).

I'm not pointing out the contradictions to belittle you, just hope you see for yourself. I'm not in any way anti-christian either. I just personally choose to see, or at least try to see, all sides and accept them equally.

You didn't present any contrary data.

I'm not ignoring anything that has been done in the name of Christ.

 

[Tranced]

^ I don't think you are a bigot, hey we don't even know you that well yet. It's a bit easier to get srs with people that are familiar, it's easy to get responses a little off base too

Come post around and get to know people, you'll get more replies from others then.

Bigotry is not a rare affliction, I would assume most people have some sort of derogatory opinion about a group of people in one way or another. It's not allowed here to use a bigot slur as an insult in an aggressive manner against another blr, you have not done that and are just expressing your concerns over Islam's history and body count right?

That's pretty common I think.

I do not really share this view because Islam is comprised of so many different sects, many dont even remotely recognize the other so that population of muslims is not what it seems.

Most fighting are Muslim to muslim, if the entire population were as one, Islam would not have a problem taking control over everyone, for a while.

It wont happen, and I dont think sharia law is a big issue either, I dont know a lot about it clearly so cant comment on it.


Im not defending Islam, I dont have the energy right now to point out some negative aspects of that religion, it's not all flowers and rainbows clearly, I just dont think it's the issue, people using it as a method of recruiting terrorists and bombers is the issue, Islsm does not condone that any more than Jesus does.

Woah, I actually thought you were CFC until I read your next post.

 

[spacejunk]

I'm not ignorant...

young Muslim guy we used to drink with

lol - whatever mate :D

 

[PearlBoots]

During the third Reich, there were a lot of nice polite people who were part of a horrible system. Niceness is not evidence of anything.

Funny you say that actually. I had a drunken talk with my boyfriend one evening about this. (As I said earlier, I'm half Jew.)
Long story short, he expressed at the end of the day, a lot of those people were just trying to live like everyone else. A lot didn't even really have a choice. A rather large pill for me to swallow, but I couldn't say he was wrong.

***point of that little story, Nazis murdered family of mine (not to mention my "people" in general. Nazis tattooed my grandfather. Islam and Judiasm almost by nature it seems, DESPISE each other. *of course not all, and that's what I'm getting at.* It's so much more satisfying to learn to accept and even love some people, than it is to have a pissing contest with them.