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Capital punishment

I wasn't sure if I'm supposed to post this here or in the political forum. I guess it's safe to post here and this thread can be moved later if needed

What's your opinion on sentencing people to death? I just recently started thinking about this practice and I can't support it. I get that with every argument there are explanations for and against such practices. Maybe I don't understand the for argument, but I happen to see negatives of the practice that solidify my opinion. Not to mention that I think killing is bad and should be avoided. My opinion, I know people will kill and I accept nature for what it is. However I don't think murder should be treated casually, so that if one murders then the government steps in to snuff them out. Maybe send them to a labor camp
My only problem with the death penalty is...what if the person is really innocent. Having said that, I would have gladly pulled the electric chair switch to fry Timothy McVeigh, and I said so at work when my coworker was defending McVeigh's "right to live". If you do something as heinous as killing 168 innocent people, including small children, and injuring nearly 700, you forfeit your "right to live".
That's my opinion, and I still end most of my responses with...
Peace
 
The death penalty is an easy escape for some cunts imo. Especially the lethal injection. Bet thats hell of a rush 😂💉na jk,

Make the scum suffer. Once PROVEN guilty. I.E they find a guys semen on multiple dead kids - no way he is innocent. Lock him up in solitary like cell, feed him bread and water, and use him for product testing and shit like that
He doesnt deserve to have his lights turned out with an injection
 
Hell yeah.
The punishment should fit the crime.
For example rapists and pedophiles, people who torture and kill animals, you know the SICK WRONG UNS, should not be in the same prison and have the same privileges as drug/driving/fraudulent offendors, or someone who is in for a 'violent' crime - but its just a adult male vs adult male fight... Whereas an adult male beating a kid or a woman should be treated different imo.
If you can't agree with that @JessFR then well i dont know what to think of you.
You're literally saying someone who rapes and kills multiple kids should be sharing a cell with someone in jail for 3 speeding tickets or not paying parking tickets?
I suppose you might not agree.
We already know you're unreasonable as you dont like abortions 😝

I don't think you understand what literally means.

Because, what I literally said is there for all to read and it included nothing of the sort. I don't think that parking tickets should be a reason to be put in prison at all. House arrest seems fine. Same with pretty much all non violent crime. Prison should be for people who can't be in society because they're a danger. And everyone else shouldn't go there. Is that not a punishment fitting the crime anyway?

What I am saying is that moral, modern society has absolutely no business inflicting torture on people for the sick sadistic pleasure of its citizens.
I think a lot of the shit proposed here makes the proposes, if taken at face value, exactly as bad as some of the worst of violent criminals. That you target only other violent criminals in order to act out your impulses in a way you think people won't mind changes nothing.

Not all of us share this perverted bloodlust. And that's exactly what it is. The disturbed enjoyment people clearly get talking about the idea of people being raped in jail, or tortured and crucified. I think that's as bad as any animal abuser.
 
I don't think you understand what literally means.

Because, what I literally said is there for all to read and it included nothing of the sort. I'm skeptical that parking tickets should be a reason to be put in prison at all. Home imprisonment seems fine.

What I am saying is that moral, modern society has absolutely no business inflicting torture on people for the sick sadistic pleasure of its citizens.
I think a lot of the shit proposed here makes the proposes, if taken at face value, exactly as bad as some of the worst of violent criminals. That you target only other violent criminals in order to act out your impulses in a way you think people won't mind changes nothing.
Ok my bad, i should have put ACTUALLY instead of LITERALLY. I'm British and us twats say 'literally' way too much. It actually annoys me irl, i dont know how its rubbed off on me so badly. Over here for some reason that word is used completely out of context.

Also it wouldn't be modern society inflicting torture. It would be some mega mentally stable desensitized military trained prison guard or something, like the executioner in old days.
Im not saying the general public should be allowed to carry out their torture fantasies on criminals, no matter how much theyd (i would) like to as YES that would make them (almost) just as bad on the sick-in-the-head scale (im high up in case you hadn't noticed 😘).
 
We're becoming more of a prison state, or it's escalating with unemployment and dependence on government for payments. They can track your every move when you have to depend on them for income. Once you are in prison, they can force drugs on you, mostly haldol with needles when you don't take it orally. It's torture and you much would rather die. Then to get your payments, you might see that you need to get vaccinated or take antipsychotics. Well, we are hitting a fed bubble and it's going to burst.
 
So am I but here we are

Yea but that's Texas those whack jobs would execute a 9 year old for stealing a lollipop :p.

Ok my bad, i should have put ACTUALLY instead of LITERALLY. I'm British and us twats say 'literally' way too much. It actually annoys me irl, i dont know how its rubbed off on me so badly. Over here for some reason that word is used completely out of context.

Also it wouldn't be modern society inflicting torture. It would be some mega mentally stable desensitized military trained prison guard or something, like the executioner in old days.
Im not saying the general public should be allowed to carry out their torture fantasies on criminals, no matter how much theyd (i would) like to as YES that would make them (almost) just as bad on the sick-in-the-head scale (im high up in case you hadn't noticed 😘).

Yeah I'm a bit of a 'literally' pedantic too. :D

Thing is, that executioner is still filled by a member of the public, and members of the public are the ones arguing that people be allowed to do it at all.

Ok so here's what I think in a nutshell.

I don't believe in committing violence against people if it's at all avoidable.
I don't believe in deterrence as an effective method of crime prevention.

Because I don't believe either of those precepts, I can't support torturing people for the same of some misguided sense that to do so is "justice".

To me, the point of the justice system is to protect society as a whole. Nothing more. If someone poses a threat to society, we have to use as much force as needed to end the threat, and to try and prevent it happening again, and no more.

It would seem agreeing with the death penalty is incompatible with these beliefs, yet another reason I have over time changed my position on it.

I once would have agreed with it under the argument that it's permissible as a way to absolutely remove someone from society who is too much a threat and who's existence too innately harmful to be allowed to live. But ultimately with some soul searching I can't help feel that desire for capital punishment it still me letting my emotions get the better of me as it does others here.

In the end I don't think it can be supported for that and many other reasons I've outlined.
 
Without a war on drugs, there would be far fewer crimes and murders. No dealer would try to rob and kill or get upset about money or product because a legal trade would end all that. And a crime without a victim is not a crime. It's tort and property that you can get locked up for. But non violent offenders get locked up all the time for petty things.
 
We have not had the death penalty in Australia for a long time. But we do have quite a few supporters of it. In my experience those who support it are generally people who don’t quite fit into society very well. They are often bitter, angry, and disaffected about many things. Often about their own place in the world. Their support often seems to be about making the world a bit more of a brutal or darker place to match up with what’s really inside them for some reason. It’s curious for example how many ex-prisoners are keen on the death penalty for certain crimes.
Wow! If what you're saying about people in Australia is true, I'm glad I don't live there.
What punishment do you think is appropriate for a man that kills 168 innocent men, women, and children, and injures almost 700 more? I'm curious as to how this sick fuck would be punished in Australia. Here in the USA, we purged the world of his presence by lethal injection, which, in my opinion, was too good for him.
You may be thinking I'm one of your "bitter, angry, and disaffected" people who wants to make the world "a bit more of a brutal or darker place". Nothing could be further from the truth. I love my children, grandchildren, and great grandchild. All of them have the same love for nature that I've always practiced. I'm against war, and was one of the peaceful demonstrators against the so called "war" in Vietnam. I also supported the guys returning from 'Nam that were spit upon by some. I've always, always donated to charities helping children, and to charities that helped nature. In my community I'm regarded as peaceful, loving person that helps others as much as I can with my old, painfully compromised back. When a friend of mine was killed in an automobile accident, I set up a fundraiser for his wife and two very small children that raised over a thousand dollars.
All of this "tooting my own horn" is to show you that people in my country who support the death penalty are not "bitter, angry, and disaffected ", just realistic.
Have a nice day, friend.
Peace
 
yeah their would levels to as the offending committed previous offences. First time violent offenders are usually just put on house arrest here. By the time somebody makes it to prision here they have showed multiple times they won't follow the law. Hell people can be caught selling thousands of tabs here and not go to jail and just get a house arrest period of like 10 months. I have never heard of anybody just going to prision here for selling psychedelics alone usually they have to be selling meth and have previous charges along with them. Meanwhile america teens sell their mates some tabs and get like 10 years fucking crazy.

Armed robbery of dairies here is so common and the lax sentences they give the fucked people doing them only just fuels other fucked people to keep on doing them. Though its probably time society civilizes their nations like japan and takes a no tolerance approach to violence. Feels way safer walking in tokyo than any western city never knowing when somebody will just randomly rob you try stab you or just straight up murder you over your wallet.
And now marijuana is legal in several states, and all drugs have been decriminalized in Oregon with other states ready to follow suit. Yet there are still people serving time in prison for selling a small quantity of pot...in the same prisons with violent criminals. Maybe some day we can right this terrible wrong.
 
True story. Over this past New Year. In South Africa.

To my surprise though: seems as though it happens elsewhere too.

And from my point of view and on this particular issue: sorry but an M80 is too quick.

Nice to "meet" you though. Never had the pleasure until now. Like your posts (not just saying that because I agree with 90% of what you've said).
Sad and we both know this but this type of behavior has been around for decades as "certain" people don't see pets as "pets". that why i said snake island for them all. No matter what way you see it, the prosecuted one will once feel how it feels to be a victim.. And so i believe that mother nature will make them suffer and die in the way they deserve...
 
I wonder what the data would say regarding countries without the death penalty and their violent crime states. I bet it would be very interesting.

I'm not suggesting that the death penalty leads to a more violent society, I'm suggesting societies with wide death penalty support are probably more violent. And also that it's clearly ineffective at deterring future crime.

I for one am very glad to live in australia over most places in America because the level of violent crime seems to be noticeably lower. I'd rather not need a gun or a death penalty than have them cause I need them.
 
I don't think you understand what literally means.

Because, what I literally said is there for all to read and it included nothing of the sort. I don't think that parking tickets should be a reason to be put in prison at all. House arrest seems fine. Same with pretty much all non violent crime. Prison should be for people who can't be in society because they're a danger. And everyone else shouldn't go there. Is that not a punishment fitting the crime anyway?

What I am saying is that moral, modern society has absolutely no business inflicting torture on people for the sick sadistic pleasure of its citizens.
I think a lot of the shit proposed here makes the proposes, if taken at face value, exactly as bad as some of the worst of violent criminals. That you target only other violent criminals in order to act out your impulses in a way you think people won't mind changes nothing.

Not all of us share this perverted bloodlust. And that's exactly what it is. The disturbed enjoyment people clearly get talking about the idea of people being raped in jail, or tortured and crucified. I think that's as bad as any animal abuser.
OK....what I said about putting m80s in a criminal's mouth...I don't really believe in doing that. I just get really upset when I read about someone being cruel to animals. In Pennsylvania there was (is?) a real problem with "puppy mills" as they're called. In a puppy mill the main objective is to produce dogs as fast and as cheap as possible. These animals are treated horribly... underfed, inbred, no shots, kept in unbelievable conditions...you get the idea. Since money is their main objective, I think puppy mill owners should be fined so much they would be unable to start another one. (Quite often, puppies from these places are in such bad condition that they are euthanized). A second offender, in my opinion, should get another massive fine and jail time.
Since I love all animals, especially dogs and cats, I often say shit before thinking it through when I hear of someone doing something as cruel as this. And when I hear of a child being mistreated, my blood boils, so I don't like even discussing that.
Peace
 
Im not saying the general public should be allowed to carry out their torture fantasies on criminals, no matter how much theyd (i would) like to as YES that would make them (almost) just as bad on the sick-in-the-head scale (im high up in case you hadn't noticed 😘).
Mindsets like yours should be discouraged, because the sickness you describe can never be confined to just one application, but bleeds out into other aspects of that society.

Not only that - sanctioning torture or other forms of violent punishment is a slippery slope towards utilising those same punishments for progressively less severe crimes.

If you can't see that, picture this. In the kind of dystopia you described where some of the barbaric tortures you've described in this thread are an acceptable punishment for certain crimes, let's say there's a change of government, or some kind of legal reform which goes in a direction you wouldn't like, so that certain things that were previously fairly minor misdemeanours - let's say the use of certain drugs since that's an example most of us here can relate to - are now punished severely enough that torture is on the cards for you.

Compare that to a society where torture is rightfully seen as a barbaric and outdated practice that serves no real purpose except to satisfy the torture fantasies of certain (in some cases, self-confessed) depraved individuals. How much more or less likely is it that an illegal drug user will be tortured in this society?

Just to run with the drugs example, since, again, it's hopefully pretty relatable - I think honestly everyone endorsing violent punishment here while simultaneously believing (presumably) in some form of drug policy reform is just delusional. Take a look at the world. How many governments with judicial systems that endorse state-sanctioned violence also take a lenient view of illicit drug use? Correct me if I'm wrong but the answer is none. The same kind of backwards, hyper-aggressive and just plain fucked up thinking that leads people to think violent punishments are OK and something to joke about pretty much always lead to severe crackdowns on the recreational use of psychoactive substances, and in many cases, capital punishments for drug related crimes. If that's the kind of world you want to live in, well, fuck I don't know what else to say.
 
OK....what I said about putting m80s in a criminal's mouth...I don't really believe in doing that. I just get really upset when I read about someone being cruel to animals. In Pennsylvania there was (is?) a real problem with "puppy mills" as they're called. In a puppy mill the main objective is to produce dogs as fast and as cheap as possible. These animals are treated horribly... underfed, inbred, no shots, kept in unbelievable conditions...you get the idea. Since money is their main objective, I think puppy mill owners should be fined so much they would be unable to start another one. (Quite often, puppies from these places are in such bad condition that they are euthanized). A second offender, in my opinion, should get another massive fine and jail time.
Since I love all animals, especially dogs and cats, I often say shit before thinking it through when I hear of someone doing something as cruel as this. And when I hear of a child being mistreated, my blood boils, so I don't like even discussing that.
Peace

I understand. Cruelty to animals and children are two of the crimes that most emotionally affect me too (sex crimes would be another one).
I do understand the impulse to want to make people who do this shit suffer for their crimes as they inflicted suffering on others.

But the difference is I believe those impulses are expressions of the darker parts of human nature and shouldn't be encouraged or embraced.
 
True story. Over this past New Year. In South Africa.

To my surprise though: seems as though it happens elsewhere too.

And from my point of view and on this particular issue: sorry but an M80 is too quick.

Nice to "meet" you though. Never had the pleasure until now. Like your posts (not just saying that because I agree with 90% of what you've said).
Hi dalpat077...I wrote that in haste...I wouldn't really put an m80 in anyone's mouth. I get really upset when I hear about someone being cruel to animals, or to children. And sometimes I write what first comes to mind. But I do believe when people are cruel to a defenseless child (or adult) or to an animal, they should be punished severely. If I put an m80 in the cruel person's mouth, I'm stooping to their level of barbaric savagery, and that's not me. I'm a peace loving person that makes friends with others wherever I go, especially with dogs and cats. At the moment my living situation doesn't allow me to have a pet, but I have a human friend that has two cats who are also my friends. (When one cat was napping in my lap, his human asked how I did that, and that the cat won't even get into his lap).
I do strongly believe in capital punishment for certain crimes, but only when the person is proven guilty without any uncertainties.
My family moved to Canada when I was in 9th grade. The subject of capital punishment came up in class, and after much discussion I was asked by the teacher what I thought, being the only American there, about the subject. When I was giving my reasons for being in favor of it, I made the mistake of including costs of housing someone sentenced for life. The teacher blasted me, yelling at me, in front of my classmates. Now, I usually think about what I say on touchy subjects before opening my mouth. But, cruelty to children or animals "makes my blood boil".
Well, thank you for your comments...it's always good to hear positive feedback. At almost 70 years old I sometimes still question some of my beliefs.
Peace
 
Cost is really immaterial when it comes to absolute morality. That said, the discussion of the morality of torture - and the discussion of the morality of capital punishment - IMO are somewhat separate discussions and it's a shame this thread is just so much virtual high fiving over depraved torture fantasies.

Obviously in the world today and probably for some time in the future, and definitely in the past, cost is a relevant factor though, and there are plenty of extreme outlier examples where the cost of keeping a human being alive, where that human being is not compatible with the rest of society, cannot be justified. For example, you're trapped in an enclosed space with just a couple of other people. One of them is dangerously unpredictable, threatening, and cannot be trusted. You and everyone else knows you're not getting out anytime soon. After a few years of sleeping with one eye open and never being able to relax, it could be quite reasonably morally justifiable to agree with the other members of this small thought experiment micro-society that you just need to kill this person, even without them actually committing a really serious crime.

Even on a grander scale, in my previously mentioned vision of a near enough morally perfect society where even hated criminals are treated compassionately - it could be the case that we have such an absolute understanding of human psychology and the human mind, as well as hyper accurate social models - that, in certain probably very rare cases, certain individuals were just unfixably broken - and them remaining alive was literally doing no good at all, not even to themselves - in this case it could also be said that execution would be justifiable. I avoided using the term "capital punishment" there because actually thinking about it, I think the whole idea of killing as punishment is a problem. In both of these examples I've proposed, although superficially the killing may appear to be a punishment of a sort, in actual fact it's just a rational decision for the greater good. Killing can be for the greater good, but punishment I think, probably, is a lot more difficult to justify, maybe unjustifiable, although thinking about it, I am less decided on that that I am on the moral reprehensibility of torture. It seems to me it should just be blindingly obvious that torture is inherently morally wrong, so it's a far less interesting discussion.
 
Interesting question! I think labour camps are also problematic - on the whole, I think punitive justice in general is problematic since it's based on a fairly archaic, even animalistic, like-for-like, vengeance-oriented type thinking, and on the whole appears to be a crude deterrent that it's hard to see would endure in a truly advanced culture, where it's fully recognised that everyone - even those who commit horrific crimes without remorse - is truly a victim of circumstances that began before they were even born.

That said, I understand obviously the natural desire to exact violent retribution on those aforementioned people who commit certain viscerally horrific crimes. More importantly, it's just a fact that certain crimes are incompatible with civilised society. But the number of these crimes has been increasing since the dawn of organised judicial systems, just as the list of behaviours that are compatible with civilised society gets shorter and shorter.

Ultimately I think the desire to commit the kind of crimes that would make almost anyone question themselves about the death penalty should be and eventually will be recognised as a manifestation of serious mental illness - even if it's not one that falls easily into a DSM definition. ie, individuals who show an inclination towards deliberate, calculatedly malicious and cruel actions, regardless of whether they actually qualify as sociopathic, violently psychopathic, whatever, will be considered to be psychologically unwell - as, obviously, they are - and, if necessary, institutionalised indefinitely. Not imprisoned - institutionalised in a humane psychiatric institution.

While they are institutionalised they should be treated with kindness and compassion, no matter the scale of their crimes, and even if they give their caretakers nothing but grief.

That was a very difficult sentence to write and I can feel myself recoiling against it as I imagine the inconceivable suffering caused by certain criminals that I unfortunately know about - but I think it's the most rational approach, ultimately.

This will obviously be a very, very difficult point to get to as a species, for too many reasons to list but obviously, significantly, the aversion of a large proportion of our species to the idea of responding to horrific crimes with compassionate treatment, even if still a lifetime institutionalisation. Again, I can think of plenty of examples of crimes that would give me serious emotional difficulty with this idea, of course, as we all can, I'm sure. But, ultimately, I just don't see that our animalistic impulse to respond to violence with violence is something that can or should survive the continuing evolution of our collective human psychology beyond our brutally violent origins in the untamed natural world - and it's unavoidable that, eventually, if we are to turn our backs on the darker sides of our species, we will need to find a way to be OK with treating even the most righteously hated person with compassion.

Anything else is a half-measure that is not sustainable, and is an acceptance of a polished version of the exact dark tendencies that we are attempting to remove by exacting inhumane or even capital punishments in the first place. This, IMO, is a hypocrisy that cannot survive the continued evolution of the human race - and the human race will ultimately not survive it, if we cannot find a way to get past it.
I can see where you're coming from, and, even though it goes against the very fibers of my being, I agree that for the human race to survive, we do need to find a way around capital punishment. There are a few criminals, however, that have made the news during my lifetime that, when someone says they don't deserve to be put to death, I feel my face turning red and I can't stop myself from reacting with my opinion. One such criminal is Timothy McVeigh. I don't believe he did this alone, but his comments, his total lack of remorse, puts him on a whole different level for me. Comments like "there are always civilian casualties in war", said with a smile. And when I saw the photo of the fireman carrying out the charred body of a baby...well, yes...while McVeigh was still alive, I said I would gladly pull the switch on his electric chair. (Actually he died from lethal injection). Why I had (have) such feelings of animosity, such hatred, in this case...well I've questioned myself before about that and have come up with no answer. I guess that's a part of me that's here to stay. Thanks for letting me reflect on this complicated part of my psyche.
Peace
 
mahan atma wrote some excellent posts on various theories behind criminal justice. here is one - it's excellent related reading:

mahan atma said:
Very briefly, here is a summary of the various theories behind criminal justice.

There are several main theories underlying the justifications for a system of criminal justice. They are as follows:

Retribution: This is based on the notion that a criminal "deserves" to be punished for the crime he commits.

Deterrence: This is based on the notion that we want to discourage people from committing crimes again in the future. There are two types -- "general deterrence" and "specific deterrence". General deterrence means you are trying to discourage the population at large from committing crimes. Specific deterrence means you are trying to discourage the offender you're locking up from committing another crime in the future.

Incapacitation: This is based on the notion that we want to lock people up to physically prevent them from committing another crime. You just want to remove them from the public areana, to keep them from being a danger to others.

Rehabilitation: This says that we want to use imprisonment to reform prisoners (and is not exclusive to the above theories, it really has more to do with what we do with the prisoners once we have them in prison).

The last three theories are known as "utilitarian" theories because they are based on the idea that we are imprisoning people in order to increase social utility (here, utility is gained in the form of decreasing crime). These sorts of theories were advocated by Jeremey Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

The retribution theory (advocated by Immanuel Kant) is sometimes called "deontology" or "a deontological theory". Don't get thrown by the fancy name. It's based on the notion that there is a duty or imperative to act morally, and that people who violate this duty must receive their "just desserts", and so on.

Now, what you need to understand is that what theory you adopt affects the question of how you should deal with a criminal.

For example, suppose I believe solely in deterrence. Then I would punish someone only in order to prevent further crimes. If it was possible to discourage people from committing murders merely by fining them $100, that would be enough. To do any more than that would be needlessly inflicting suffering on the criminal.

Conversely, a person who believes in retribution is more likely to want to give the murderer the death penalty because they "deserve" to be punish in proportion to the crime they've committed.

You don't like the first situation as much because you see it as "too easy" on the criminal. But this is not necessarily the case. Suppose that the only way you could discourage people from committing petty theft is by sentencing them to life in prison. Then a pure deterrence theory person would say that's exactly what you should do. On the other hand, a retribution theory person would probably say that a petty thief does not "deserve" life in prison merely for petty theft.

Those are a couple of extreme examples that make retribution look more sensible than deterrence, but you can imagine less extreme examples if you like.

Another situation where the theories differ is in the case of the retarded person, as I demonstrated above. If you believe solely in retribution, you would NOT lock up the retarded person for committing murder, because it isn't their fault they are retarded and they don't "deserve" to be locked up.

A person who believes only in specific deterrence probably wouldn't lock up the retarded person either, because the person is unlikely to respond rationally in the future, and hence unlikely to be deterred. In other words, if the retarded person is "too dumb" to understand that committing another crime will get them locked up again, it doesn't make any sense to lock them up in the first place.

On the other hand, a person who believes in incapacitation believes that it is necessary to lock the person up in order to protect society. (But you would still try to house the person humanely, because to treat them harshly would be to inflict needless suffering.)

A person who believes in general deterrence may or may not lock up the retarded person, depending on how they think society at large will respond. If society at large understands that we're only going to make a special exception for retarded people, but that anyone else will still get locked up for committing crimes, then you wouldn't lock up the retarded person.

Do you see how the theories operate differently in different situations? Note that depending on the situation, one theory may seem intuitively more sensible than another. Sometimes your "gut feeling" tells you that retribution makes more sense (as in the case of not wanting to sentence someone to life in prison for petty theft). But in other situations, like the retarded person, incapacitation seems to make more sense intuitively.

alasdair
 
Nice post of yours (the entire post I mean).

The above (quote) a great idea. Unfortunately though it'll never fly though I don't think. Pretty much exactly what I was referencing in one of my previous posts and is addressed on the link provided in that post. From that article (and others on the topic) it seems to be a contentious issue. People have issues with being genetically screened for being predisposed to certain medical conditions by private healthcare insurance providers! Imagine telling a new mother that her newborn is about to have a psychopath screening test! 🤣 I'm sure that'd go down well in the consulting room!
You're right about the screening tests on newborns. I'm the father of four, and we actually didn't want, or have, any tests to determine the sex of any of our children. My wife and I agreed the less our unborn were subjected to, the better. (We did, however, listen to rock music and to classical music during each pregnancy, believing our unborn child could hear it.)
 
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