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Cannabis withdrawal mechanism

Foreigner

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(There is already another thread happening about withdrawal but it's talking too much about the use of pharmaceuticals and for me that is barking up the wrong tree. I also wasn't sure if I should put this into the cannabis subform or ADD.)

I quit smoking weed about 2-3 weeks ago. In my history of smoking weed, there has been a naturally ebb and flow between quitting for months and then starting up again. Now though, this is the first time I've stopped smoking altogether in about 2 years. Please note: I am not willing to take any pharmaceuticals so please don't suggest them.

The initial reason why I stopped was because I contracted the flu and went through a period with high fever where my lungs felt dessicated of their moisture. The idea of adding smoke to that did not sit well with me. Instead, I tried eating the pot, and this gave me crazy hangovers and a foggy inability to deal with day-to-day life. So I decided enough was enough and I needed to cool my jets for a while. I diverge from the opinions of some who think pot is harmless. I think stimulating your brain with any kind of substance for the long-term can be harmful. In my case, it was exhausting me. It kept me up late because it was stimulating, and it reduced my alertness levels during the day.

The other reason is that I am in the process of obtaining pure ketamine because I plan to try jamshyd's ketamine regimen for depression. I am particularly interested in its potential for "resetting" receptors and increasing synaptic regrowth. My depression is treatment-resistent due to the way my body processes pharmaceuticals, so this may be my only hope at this point. His writeup indicates that he does not recommend being on other drugs during the treatment. But I digress...

I've been experiencing all the typical withdrawal problems: insomnia, irritability, anxiety and depression, etc. It has been pretty alarming for me to experience these symptoms because I have never had this problem before in the past. Unlike others who withdrawal, I am not fiending for pot and searching for crumbs. I still have quite a bit in my possession for personal use, so it's not a matter of discipline.

The insomnia is not terrible. I'm actually able to get to sleep a little bit earlier than I normally do. I feel tired around 11-1am but out of habit I push myself to stay up later (part of my insomnia is psychological and PTSD related, and it's hard for me to let go and pass out). I'm also enjoying having really clear lungs, a good sense of smell and taste again, the ability to breathe really deep and feel full of oxygen, a consciousness that is more or less clear, and knowing the independence of not needing to do a substance daily. These are all pluses.

What's bugging me right now is the depression and the complete and utter dissatisfaction I'm experiencing in life. I would like to know what the reason for this is, neurochemically. It surely isn't just psychological? It's like nothing interests me and a sort of apathy has set in. I am normally a heart centred person so this is kind of alarming. I'm not suicidal, but I'm feeling existentially uncertain and I don't get what the point of living is.

My lifestyle is pretty healthy. I workout regularly, eat very healthy, I have great friends, a loving partner, and I'm a community healer so my days are filled with positive work. (Actually, doing my work is probably the only time I feel normal and "in flow".) There is no noticeable lack in my life. So why do I feel so shitty right now?

Why would the absence of cannabis from the body prompt these feelings? What does cannabis support in the brain that offsets it? AFAIK cannabis does not deal with serotonin. Could the low level state of mind/body have something to do with dopamine receptors? Why am I falling back into depression again? It's so obvious that even my friends are noticing. I don't have a lot of support in my immediate community when I say that pot isn't good for me right now. All I get reflected back at me is the typical righteous stuff, "Well I love pot, it does wonders for me! How could it harm anyone?" It's like, please STFU already, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about me.

This post is kind of all over the place. Thank you for reading. Suggestions are welcome. I've never had to deal with this before.

I love BL and I know that good advice will come soon.
 
You say that you want to try ketamine for depression. Did you have problems with depression previously or has that just started since you stopped using cannabis? Were you using cannabis to treat your depression? If you were smoking for a long time before you quit, the withdrawal symptoms that you are dealing with aren't unrealistic. Insomnia, anxiety, irritability, depression, ahedonia, etc. are standard symptoms for people who suffer withdrawal from weed. If withdrawal is all you are experiencing, the symptoms will probably subside in a couple more weeks. If they don't go away, it may be the case that you had an existing problem that the cannabis was covering up.

Your best option for the time being is to wait it out and see how things progress. If you do choose to smoke in the future, occasional use would be more appropriate than regular/daily toking.
 
Why would the absence of cannabis from the body prompt these feelings? What does cannabis support in the brain that offsets it? AFAIK cannabis does not deal with serotonin. Could the low level state of mind/body have something to do with dopamine receptors? Why am I falling back into depression again? It's so obvious that even my friends are noticing. I don't have a lot of support in my immediate community when I say that pot isn't good for me right now. All I get reflected back at me is the typical righteous stuff, "Well I love pot, it does wonders for me! How could it harm anyone?" It's like, please STFU already, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about me.

This post is kind of all over the place. Thank you for reading. Suggestions are welcome. I've never had to deal with this before.

I love BL and I know that good advice will come soon.

Well first of all, I would say you barking at the wrong tree somewhat. There's a lot more going on here than just serotonin and dopamine, and despite what the pharmaceutical companies often tout, there's a lot more to depression too than just serotonin and dopamine. You should look more into the endogenous cannabinoids such as anandamide - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandamide

With chronic cannabis use, among others your CB1 receptors downregulate and desensitize, there's now less of them and it takes more to excite them. This makes it much harder for anandamide to do it's job properly: "Anandamide plays a role in the regulation of feeding behavior, and the neural generation of motivation and pleasure." -wiki

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14977366
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/744324

Although the latter one says "Although the results suggest no correlation with measures of craving or withdrawal, there was a negative correlation with years of abuse"

The one from pubmed says "In general, these adaptations are regionally widespread and of considerable magnitude, and are thought to contribute to tolerance to cannabinoid-mediated behavioral effects."

Why I feel this is significant, is that I find my own withdrawal symptoms directly proportional to my tolerance, the bigger tolerance I have, the worse it's going to get if I just stop smoking.

There's also some interaction with cannabinoid receptors and opioid receptors, but there doesn't seem to be much research about it yet and I haven't gotten into it too much either, but it's interesting as I have a lot of similiar symptoms when withdrawing from cannabis as many people have when withdrawing from opiates, although mine are quite milder. Almost as if the CB1 downregulation caused too little activation of the μ-opioid receptors by for example beta-endorphins resulting in all kinds of fun stuff like pains and aches all over the body, though it might be that personally I have unusually low levels of beta-endorphins anyway (I'm like, super sensitive to touch for example). Speculation, anyways.

Then there's also the study that claims THC can trigger up to a 4000% (40x) increased release of melatonin in the brain, one might want to look into that too, it could explain the insomnia somewhat. Then again I don't think we quite even understand melatonin yet.

But yeah, it's a complicated issue imho, and because there are so many factors involved, there are even more varying individual reactions for everyones unique brain chemistry. Some people never complain about any withdrawals whatsoever. Some people don't even know what's going on in their bodies as if they weren't aware, so they think there's nothing going on but you can clearly observe their increased moodiness, restlessness and anxiety.
 
FnX, thank you for that wonderful information. I always suspected that cannabis was downregulating something in my brain but I wasn't sure what. My weed hangovers feel too much like stimulant hangovers, where excitation is followed by that unpleasant lull. I know weed can't be compared to stimulants but I am still acutely aware that it's antagonizing something in my brain that feels debilitated with regular use.

I'm not sure I see the melatonin connection for myself personally. Weed has never ever made me sleepy, quite the opposite. If I smoke too late in the evening it will keep me up all night; but then, sleeping pills do the same thing to me. They make me manic and wired but not really sleepy. Weed also doesn't stimulate appetite for me. If I'm really hungry and then smoke, my hunger vanishes. I usually have to eat and then smoke. Paradoxically, aint it? I'm yet to hear a decent explanation for that one.

I guess the question then is, how long will it take these cannabinoid receptors to regulate themselves again? I'm hoping that the ketamine regimen will reset some of that, though I'm not aware of ketamine acting on cannabinoid receptors whatsoever.

You say that you want to try ketamine for depression. Did you have problems with depression previously or has that just started since you stopped using cannabis? Were you using cannabis to treat your depression? If you were smoking for a long time before you quit, the withdrawal symptoms that you are dealing with aren't unrealistic. Insomnia, anxiety, irritability, depression, ahedonia, etc. are standard symptoms for people who suffer withdrawal from weed. If withdrawal is all you are experiencing, the symptoms will probably subside in a couple more weeks. If they don't go away, it may be the case that you had an existing problem that the cannabis was covering up.

I've had insomnia and depression my whole life. I don't consider it to be something that will ever go away, but something that is managed carefully with lifestyle. Seems like since I quit pot I have been having a relapse. Wide awake and tired, having an active life but feeling pointless, having suicidal ideation even though I have no interest in committing suicide (there is no desperation or deep despair happening). It's weird... like my brain is really confused right now.

I can recognize what symptoms are new as of the WD, and what symptoms are just being carried over from my usual life. The absence of weed has definitely impacted my sleep, and has caused anhedonia as you say. My desire to do the ketamine regamen has nothing to do with the cannabis WD symptoms. I should have clarified that in my OP. I'm not jumping at ketamine because I feel bad now but for long-term issues.
 
I guess the question then is, how long will it take these cannabinoid receptors to regulate themselves again?


This is the same concept as someone taking a "tolerance break" where they stop smoking for a period of time to reduce tolerance so they can get higher with less weed. You will be on the same type of timeline. It varies from person to person but 1 month seems to be enough to eliminate tolerance for most people, maybe a month and a half to two months for heavy stoners. As far as the withdrawals go, you are probably past the worst. Weed withdrawals shouldn't last longer than a month.
 
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