Bupe Can you take low doses of Ibogaine for PAWS from Subutex

[Selina_sanity]

Hiya people. My name is Selina. Am from England. I've been taking Subutex for the past 6 years, am 32 years old.

My plan is to make it past the acute stage and handle the initial withdrawals but then low dose boosters of Ibogaine during PAWS. Is this possible? instead of a one big flood dose?

what difference will it make it I took low dose Boosters of Ibogaine for PAWS then taking a flood dose during PAWS?

I also read numerous stories of people relapsing after Ibogaine as it can wear off the brain, espeacially for folks who were long term methadone and buprenorphine/suboxone/subutex users. Am still new to all this Ibogaine/Iboga so am gathering much information as I can.

If anybody can give their honest experience and any opinions I well welcome that. Again my question is that is it possible to only take low dose boosters of Ibogaine for PAWS from Subutex? instead of an initial dose? I believe I can get past the acute stage and I do believe in my heart I have changed my addictive nature. I haven't even touched drugs for the last 6 years other then Subutex. My only issues are post acute withdrawals, mind you I have not weaned off yet, am on 2mgs. I plan to take it slow, would I even need Ibogaine if am going this slow? I only took cocaine & heroin for 5 years on and off from 2001-2005.

Thanks guys.

 

[HighlyEnjoyed]

I know that in ibogaine treatment they give you a somewhat small dose to test it on you as some people's body chemistry just cant take the drug. And then the proper way would numerous doses threw out a day. Now a friend of mind actually did take low doses of ibogaine daily, enough to distort him but not enough not to function. And he only did it for 7 days and was withdrawal free from 90mg of methadone in 7 days, i believe he tapered aswell.

 

[HighlyEnjoyed]

Now like you said you could probably taper that 2mg down to .25mg and suffer mild withdrawals. But face the inevitable, if you dont want to be on subutex any longer you are more than likely going to have to face withdrawal so why not try to make it as mild as possible. I've went off of .25mg of sub after a 3 year addiction to heroin. i had mild withdrawals. The first 2 days i had trouble sleeping and restless leg syndrome. But by day 3 it was bare able. Everyone's different and i wish you luck in your journey toward subrioty.

 

[sekio]

Just take a bolus dose - I would imagine quite a bit of the benificial effects of iboga trips result from the psychedelic component more than alteration of body chemistry and opiate receptor blockade.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

I'm not sure how much research has been done on low-dose ibogaine to treat post-acute withdrawal syndrome but its certainly an interesting topic!

Hopefully we'll be able to get some good discussion on this.

Outside of your specific inquiries (which unfortunately I can not answer), there are several things you can do to mitigate the effects of PAW symptoms. Without solicitation, I won't go into detail and derail your thread, but here is an excellent 2-part excerpt from Terence Gorski's book "Staying Sober" on the subject.

 

[Selina_sanity]

Thanks for the replies guys.

@Highenjoyed how long were u on sub for ? did u have any PAWS?

I keep hearing from people that when the Ibogaine wears down then the symptoms of paws return with a vengence, this mainly with longer acting drugs such as meth and subutex.

What if you did a flood dose during paws? what benfit will that have over low doses during PAWS?

and why does one have to transfer to a shorter acting opiate from sub to do Ibogaine?

 

[Selina_sanity]

Another question about sub.. Say for example someone was on 0.3mg of sub for 3 years or so, how would they taper? they wouldn't be able to taper right so does that mean they'll get PAWS because of the half life? This is just out of curiosity. Is it true sub is bettter if taken at the most 2mgs because u can at least taper it? whereas if one has been on 0.2 or 0.3 for long term they'll get longer paws because half life would have been built and because u can't really taper long from a low dose like 0.3 o.2 etc,so thus making the withdrawals/paws harder? Was always curious about this aspect of sub.

 

[BrokedownPalace]

PAWS is inevitable regardless of how you do your taper, or taper at all. The tapering will help to minimize the physical withdrawal symptoms, and once you feel good physically you will then still have the PAWS monster to combat. Obviously it could last longer if you have been using for many years, but I feel like if you just sit and dwell on it, it will linger much longer than if you stay active and take the steps needed to heal mentally. Im not relaly talking about you specifically, but just in general.

And ragarding your last post, I feel like if you have gotten to such a low dose of bupe as 0.3mg, than tapering isn't even necessary.. that is such a small dose that the physical aspect should be very manageable, or if you really needed to, try to go down to 0.2 for a while, than 0.1, then jump off. But, at that low of a dose it should be very manageable, at least for me. If anything the mental part of no longer having to take a medicine wil be the hardest to deal with. I.e, PAWS.

I do not know much about ibogaine unfortunately, but regardless, congrats on your clean time and I am very interested in hearing more about Ibogaine during PAWS. Goodluck!

 

[Selina_sanity]

Hi. I said I was only speaking as an example if one had been on a low dose such as 0.3 for 3 years. Am still weaning down. Am on 2mg's now. Never went any higher then 12mg (standard starting protocol dose in the UK).

 

[BrokedownPalace]

I understand, that is why I said I was not speaking about you specifically, but just in general.

You are at quite a low dose where jumping off now would be pretty manageable physically, but like i said you could taper to .2 for a while, then .1, then jump off if you are concerned..

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^I think there was some confusion/miscommunication.

She's presently titrated her dose down to 2 mg (from as high as 12) so I think jumping off there would still induce unnecessary discomfort. If she WAS at .3mg presently, I could understand what you're saying, but presently her dose is nearly 7x that much.

 

[BrokedownPalace]

Yeah i think i confused myself. I see that she is on 2mg, but I was more so referring to her hypothetical situation she was inquiring about in post #7.

Anyways I am sorry if I am talking nonsense, it has been a long night and my head isn't exactly as clear as it should be haha..

 

[Selina_sanity]

It's ok folks no problem.

Am still curious if Ibogaine is better served doing a flood dose or boosters when in PAWS. Please note: when in PAWS and not straight after getting off Subutex.

Also why do folks have to change to a shorter opiate before the Ibogaine? and what health dangers are there.

Thanks.

 

[rootlogik]

...

This PAWS coming up for people weeks and months after ibogaine treatment for buprenorphine does occur. But this can be remedied during the initial ibogaine detox if the patient receives an adequate amount of ibogaine. One case I've seen with Suboxone took 48mg's of ibogaine per kilogram of body weight over the course of about 5 days along with several boosters, 2-5mg/kg range, in the following weeks to be completely detoxed with no withdrawal symptoms (not consuming more than 24mg/kg in a 24 hour period). Most short acting opiate habits (oxy, heroin) only take 15-20mg/kg of ibogaine to completely detoxed… a notable difference in dosage. The buprenorphine sticks around for a long time... and even with the short acting switch 30 days prior its a long and exhausting treatment. The case I described above was after a 30 day switch.

What I believe is happening in these cases is that people are generally going to a 2 week ibogaine detox and overcoming the acute withdrawals during there stay… but weeks later the residual withdrawal symptoms arise and the patient no longer has access to ibogaine…

So the general idea for buprenorphine would be an initial detox with follow up boosters (generally 2-5mg/kg… a generally sub-dreaming dose) as residual withdrawal symptoms arose during the following weeks. With this method you will be completely past all withdrawal symptoms.

In your case I think you should consider a full treatment, including flood dosage and follow up boosters until all withdrawals are gone. It would mean switching and stabilizing of course. But if done this way you could be completely off everything with no withdrawal in about 45 days (from the day you switched to short acting). The other process of weaning from the 2mgs buprenorphine then taking boosters could be a long drawn out ordeal.

 

[Selina_sanity]

But why switch to a SAO? why not wait for 2 or 4 weeks or even 2 months after quitting bup/sub and then do Ibogaine-Iboga? I thought SAO is for those who can't wait for 1 month without an opiate? if I had can hold out for long as possible without a SAO and then do Iboga wouldn't that be wise? what if one switched to a SAO 1 or 2 months after jumping from sub? would it make any difference?

 

[rootlogik]

...

Quoted from the post I made in the in the other thread…
There would be no reason to reintroduce a (SAO) short acting opiate 1-2 months after discontinuing buprenorphine. The switch is for someone who couldn't step off the Suboxone for that amount of time. So they instead switch to short acting opiates, with no titration of buprenoprhine, and 30 days later undertake ibogaine treatment. This is why ibogaine is so novel for treating Suboxone… you can be fully detoxed in such a short amount of time.

If someone were able to discontinue Suboxone for 1-2 months and then take ibogaine treatment, that would be an ideal scenario. At that point if the person was stable and didn't feel the need for a dream inducing dose with ibogaine, they could potentially take incremental sub-psychedelic doses to alleviate (PAWS) post acute withdrawal symptoms.

rootlogik

 

[Shame to Shameless]

I am in the same boat. I have now had two flood doses of Ibogaine and finally have some at home. I have not been successful in getting clean but have come down to 4-8mg a day from 32mg a day for four years. I wasn't prepared for the long and psychological impact of my addictive patterns even after long periods of sobriety. 13 years and then another 13 years. I have been at this for a long time. My initial heroin use paled in comparison to the years of methadone and finally sobriety in 1981. It took 6 months to kick methadone and I was so grateful for my sobriety but wasn't diligent about keeping up with meetings and dealing with my basic addictive personality.

So now here I am after two trips to a Mexican clinic which was awesome and I highly endorse this particular clinic which is in a beautiful location both safe and with amazing amenities, restaurants, boating, swimming, beach and a great medical staff. My problem was and always has been me.

I now realize how much sub has robbed me of life and am committed to weaning and using the ibogaine along with it in small dosages until I can handle the wd's that have stopped me in the past. This should be legal in America in my opinion. My sub Dr. is a decent enough man but doesn't know of the life robbing side effects of suboxone or subutex. I saw Selina's post and needed to share and get support, feedback and any advice.

Thanks,
From Shame to Shameless

 

[Shame to Shameless]

A flood dose during PAWS would work well. I always had my flood dose too soon. They did switch me to a shorter acting opiate but the subs are so powerful and binding that it didn't eliminate enough withdrawal symptoms and I also made the mistake of having subs back home and eventually succumbed. I believe that when the ibogaine wears off which after a flood dose is about 3 months most of us need a 12 step program because there isn't enough support out there and addictive patterns are just part of the malady. I believe at its core is a spiritual piece which is the most important part. A 3 fold disease cannot be treated with 1 or 2 folds. Just my opinion.