Bupe Can you get Subutex in Canada or just Suboxone? + other bupe questions

[Swimmingdancer]

Does anyone know whether or not you can get Subutex in Canada? I think we have only had Suboxone here for like a year or so. If we do have Subutex in Canada, how difficult is to get a doctor to prescribe it instead of Suboxone? Also can anyone tell me their experiences/preferences using Subutex vs Suboxone, any side effects, negative experiences, or cases of the drug not properly alleviating withdrawals? I am on methadone right now and am really hesitant to switch to Suboxone. I am afraid of the having to go sick for 2 or 3 days before I can take it; I get really severe withdrawal symptoms very quickly, they begin only about 9 hrs after I take my last dose of methadone, as I am a "quick metabolizer" and on a relatively low dose of 36 mg a day. I have been addicted to opiates for 15 years and although I haven't used anything other than the methadone in a long time (and only the minimum dose to keep me relatively un-sick, although since I've lowered my dose I have mild wds almost all the time), I am afraid I will never be able to get off of it and feel pretty hopeless sometimes. I am also terrified the Suboxone won't work properly and then I'll be screwed waiting another few days before I can take my methadone again. Any advice? Thanks.

 

[Tommyboy]

Subutex has been available in Canada since 2005, so unless they stopped prescribing it, it should be available. There is really no difference between suboxone and subutex though, as the naloxone in suboxone doesn't end up on your opiate receptors. This makes the buprenorphine the only drug that are really getting out of the two. Some people have reported headaches from suboxone, but that's all I have really heard when comparing the two.

You could try using another opiate for a day or two while transitioning from the methadone to suboxone. Due to the long half-life of methadone they will probably have you wait 3 days after dosing the methadone before allowing you to dose the suboxone, but some people take another opiate between the transition, and as long as you allow 24 hours, at the least (I would wait 30 hours) after taking the other opiate, you should be in the clear from experiencing the precipitated withdrawals.

Some people have a very smooth transition, and suboxone works great right away for them, and other people have a rough transition. If may take a few days to get comfortable, as the suboxone builds up in your system. Same goes for subutex, and like I said, they are the same thing really, as the buprenorphine is the active ingredient in both.

 

[Znegative]

Your also lucky in that your on a pretty low dose of methadone. Usually they have people taper down to 30mg before the transition, and since you're pretty much there already you've got that on your side. Usually during induction they first give you subutex and then suboxone so you don't have to worry about that probably

 

[SUB SHOOTER 2010]

Subutex and Suboxone are made of very similar ingredients but do not give you the same feeling. Ive been prescribed both and have lots of experience with both for the last 5 years. You will experience more euphoric feelings from subutex than you do suboxone. This is a well known fact where I'm from. That is why where I'm from people pay twice as much for subutex as they do suboxone. Don't get me wrong I believe suboxone works and everything but I much prefer subutex. I recommend it also. People that say different probably either haven't taken a subutex or they don't have enough experience with both to tell the difference.

 

[dittybopmonster]

A transition from meth to bupe is never going to be a comfortable one, at the very least. Also, I get subutex (Roxane 54 411) and never understand why people act as if tex is SO much better than the box. I mean theyre both bupe pills, if anything your prolly going to get the generic bc the name brand tex is rare and expensive so when ur getting suboxone ur getting a name brand formulation. Plus, theyre both bupe pills with the same amount of active ingredient. Ive heard of the naloxone headaches and to be honest I feel as if theyre more mental then anything. Bupe, as a strong opiate, can absolutly cause a headache in itself. Ive gotten that same headache from tex than I have from suboxone. Just my .02. Granted I do have friends that swear to me that the naloxone causes headaches...i just dont buy it

 

[SUB SHOOTER 2010]

I get the roxanne subutex too but I used to get the name brands for a long time and the only difference is that the name brands break down a little better in water when you IV it. The difference in subutex and suboxone is felt way more if you IV them both. Then you can def tell a difference. But even the snorters and people that take them how your supposed to agree that subutex is better around my way. Like I said people will pay twice as much for tex as they do suboxone. Ive seen people trade 3 suboxone for 1 subutex numerous times.

 

[dittybopmonster]

i hear ya. trading 3 suboxone for a subutex is downright ridiculous, however. I see that as a parallel to trading 3 generic oc 80's for one name brand oc 80.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Tommyboy are you sure Subutex has been available in Canada for 7 years?? Maybe just in certain provinces or something? Cuz my doctor said that buprenorphine only became available here maybe about 2 years ago. Weird..

He also has no interest in prescribing Subutex, only Suboxone, grr. I have heard a LOT of people say there is a big difference between buprenorphine (Subutex) and bupe + naloxone (Suboxone). I don't want to be putting naloxone in my body when I have no need for it. Plus I am morally opposed to it. It reminds me of A Clockwork Orange, the idea of doing something or putting something in people's bodies that makes them extremely sick if they do the socially unaccepted behaviour, in this case using opiates.

I cannot fathom going 3 entire days without methadone. I am a "quick metabolizer" and I would be suicidal by that point. Even switching to a shorter-acting opiate and then going 30 hrs without it, then taking a new medication which I have no idea whether it will work for me, whether it will alleviate me WDs or how my body will react to it sounds pretty terrifying for me. For now I think I'm still too scared to try the Suboxone and am thinking of using ayahuasca (or possibly iboga?) maybe every month or so as I taper my methadone dose, and perhaps substituting part of my methadone dose with kratom. If anyone knows anything about kratom that would be much appreciated.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

A transition from meth to bupe is never going to be a comfortable one, at the very least.

How come? Did you do that?

 

[Tommyboy]

The difference in subutex and suboxone is felt way more if you IV them both. Then you can def tell a difference. But even the snorters and people that take them how your supposed to agree that subutex is better around my way. Like I said people will pay twice as much for tex as they do suboxone. Ive seen people trade 3 suboxone for 1 subutex numerous times.

By me subutex is still way cheaper than suboxone on the streets, or at the very least, the same price as suboxone. We can't discuss prices here, but I just wanted to point out that this is very much a regional thing.

Tommyboy are you sure Subutex has been available in Canada for 7 years?? Maybe just in certain provinces or something? Cuz my doctor said that buprenorphine only became available here maybe about 2 years ago. Weird..

He also has no interest in prescribing Subutex, only Suboxone, grr. I have heard a LOT of people say there is a big difference between buprenorphine (Subutex) and bupe + naloxone (Suboxone). I don't want to be putting naloxone in my body when I have no need for it. Plus I am morally opposed to it. It reminds me of A Clockwork Orange, the idea of doing something or putting something in people's bodies that makes them extremely sick if they do the socially unaccepted behaviour, in this case using opiates.

I cannot fathom going 3 entire days without methadone. I am a "quick metabolizer" and I would be suicidal by that point. Even switching to a shorter-acting opiate and then going 30 hrs without it, then taking a new medication which I have no idea whether it will work for me, whether it will alleviate me WDs or how my body will react to it sounds pretty terrifying for me. For now I think I'm still too scared to try the Suboxone and am thinking of using ayahuasca (or possibly iboga?) maybe every month or so as I taper my methadone dose, and perhaps substituting part of my methadone dose with kratom. If anyone knows anything about kratom that would be much appreciated.

Any research I have done has said that subutex has been available in Canada since 2005. I used to live on the US side of the US/CA border, so I had looked into it.

As for Kratom, I have not used it, but there is a lot of info on it here in the Kratom Thread. If you are worried about the transition from methadone to buprenorphine (whether it be in the form of suboxone or subutex) then it is probably best that you taper with the methadone for a bit longer. If you do decide to switch, then I think that you are better off using another opiate between methadone and sub, and then waiting the appropriate amount of time after cessation of the methadone.

I wouldn't worry about the suboxone/tex (lets just call it bupe) not working though. I think that when most people say that bupe didn't work for them like methadone did, they mean more that it didn't help with cravings as much, and didn't fill that void in their brain as much as methadone did. I have only used suboxone for opiate addiction (18 months of therapy), and my only experience with methadone (other than some recreational use) was when it was given to me at a detox in treatment.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Any research I have done has said that subutex has been available in Canada since 2005. I used to live on the US side of the US/CA border, so I had looked into it.

Weird, maybe it just took a while for it to spread to all of Canada, become commonly available, and for doctors to start prescribing it more frequently.

As for Kratom, I have not used it, but there is a lot of info on it here in the Kratom Thread.

Thanks I will check that out

If you are worried about the transition from methadone to buprenorphine (whether it be in the form of suboxone or subutex) then it is probably best that you taper with the methadone for a bit longer. If you do decide to switch, then I think that you are better off using another opiate between methadone and sub, and then waiting the appropriate amount of time after cessation of the methadone.

I wouldn't worry about the suboxone/tex (lets just call it bupe) not working though. I think that when most people say that bupe didn't work for them like methadone did, they mean more that it didn't help with cravings as much, and didn't fill that void in their brain as much as methadone did. I have only used suboxone for opiate addiction (18 months of therapy), and my only experience with methadone (other than some recreational use) was when it was given to me at a detox in treatment.

As for the bupe potentially "not working", methadone has never made me feel the least bit high or alleviated cravings, or done anything other than lessen withdrawal symptoms so I am now pretty used to that (and at the lower doses esp during dose drops it hasn't even been that great at alleviating WDs, but it's certainly much more bearable than no methadone at all). What I meant by "not working" was more like what if the bupe didn't fully alleviate the WDs and/or it has some adverse side effects or something. My current plan is to keep trying to gradually lower the methadone with the help of infrequent ayahuasca and kratom use. Assuming the kratom actually helps and doesn't give me a speedy effect that I don't like.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

This morning I have discussed about the urgent need of mine to switch to suboxone at my monthly methadone doctor appointments, routine blood tests my GP ordered have shown me to be having extremely low doses of testosterone and cortisol and also obvious symptoms such as very rapid gain weight, which was sudden I gotta say, my first 4 months on methadone were fine other than for the horrible constipation leading to me needing 4 laxatives to go take a shit every 3 days...anyways, I have been sent to have an urgent appointment with an endocrinologist who will give me testosterone injections since my levels are so low (which explains a lot, I have every symptom, except ED but I have zero interest to initiate sex and have very little endurance (the actual act of having sex is extremely tiring to me, just like everything else). So I have no choice, even if I am at 47mg of methadone as of today, I gotta be switched. They do not seem to consider Subutex an option at all at the clinic...maybe they do for people like me who have been great patients with never any trace of other opiates, which I am truly proud of, and I never stuck a needle in my hands or arms since October too..some sources and BL posts say that the naloxone in it can give people headache and some unwanted effects and seemingly a bit more say the naloxone is totally useless and one can even get high by IV'ing suboxone pills because bupe>naloxone when it comes to binding to mu receptors.....this is all a big headache in itself trying to figure out what to do and what will happen, which if any of you want to read why I think so, the following paragraphs follow to give a little more background, I really don't need a torn in my side called naloxone consider what I'm going through.

The day before I get to the hospital (the clinic is hospital it seems in canada, anyway my province), I will be given half a dose, then they will keep me inpatient and wait for me to in extreme withdrawals, well not too extreme, as there would be no difference in precipitated withdrawal and feeling like complete shit...they said 2 to 3 days should do the trick...3-4 times I have been a bad patient, which they don't know fortuantely and have abused a takehome, so I did endure a day without methadone at least 3-4 times, but that was when I was at 60 and 55mg, not when I then dropped slowly to 53, 51, 49 and now 47. The good news is that they will feed me my usual medication and that I am allowed to take benzos as per the order of my psychiatrist, I have never abused my benzos, at least, not to the ridiculous point many posts in here and places like 420chan have made me see some people do (25mg of xanax ? 400mg of valium ? some people lack fucking common sense)...I would get horrible withdrawals when I would take a bit too much valium, which only translated to taking 30mg 5-6 days a month leading to me being valium less for a week a couple times and that made me consider suicide unlike opiate withdrawal...

Anyways, I know I start to feel really bad about 36 hours in...i am scripted 2 benzos, valium 10mg bid and xanax .5mg as needed only and i only get 15 a month of them....I hope they will consider the as needed when I will be there and give me some everyday and more maybe if the doctor judges it necessary....I know all about the other comfort meds, I have scripts for them all! Hydroxyzine, clonidine (which I only take after I do a small reduction like now and start to get the sweat chills, skin crawling and skin burning sensations) and tagamet, as well the benzos. Sometimes I praise the lord, ironically, since I am an agnostic at best..that my psychiatrist acknowledge I am a danger to myself and others without benzos....please enlighten me.

At first I considered methadone a saviour, but suddenly out of the blue in march I gained about 60 pounds, developed borderline low levels of cortisol, borderline diabeetus, borderline needing cholesterol pills and extremely low testosterone levels, my doc says the normal for my age is 400 nanograms, i'm at 66 nanograms...i gotta say i took those blood tests after staying up 2 days on dexedrine and then went to bed, but i told the doctor, i'm allowed to have my add meds so I can make some money working at home...and she said it shouldn't play much on blood levels of such important things.

Methadone made me balloon and get bitch tits when I never was fat in my whole life, I'm 6'1 and 200lbs at my normal self, i had gotten to 187 lbs when I went to clinic in October but that was due to me putting all my money on illicitly obtained dilaudid, hydromorph contin, supeudols and demerol....fuck....being 6'1 and 260lbs makes me feel so unhealthy...especially with these last blood test results...

Anyways, I doubt plain buprenorphine can be used (Subutex), I tried to explain to her that the Naloxone in suboxone was useless, she said maybe I was right, but that it wasn't in her control, the clinic offers methadone or suboxone and that's it, and most of the time people can only get suboxone if the methadone gives them way too many side effects, like me.

Wish me some good for those 2-3-4 days i'll spend at the hospital for when they'll watch me go into withdrawal and then give me 2mg..and if that's not enough 2.5mg and so on....I'm only at 47mg of methadone right now..so I don't think I'll get to huge doses over 8mg.

 

[highballer]

I WANT SUBUTEX TOO! And he is wrong, suboxone has been here for years, not that many but at least since 2008 i think, my dr. said they dont give out subutex here, but then i hear only exceptional cases. They do have the patch though! Canada sucks, US gets all them good stuff, zyrem too, lol!

 

[highballer]

what the hell you have to be in moderate withdrawal in canada to switch 48 hours! I would never want precipitated withdrals. WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT!

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

I WANT SUBUTEX TOO! And he is wrong, suboxone has been here for years, not that many but at least since 2008 i think, my dr. said they dont give out subutex here, but then i hear only exceptional cases. They do have the patch though! Canada sucks, US gets all them good stuff, zyrem too, lol!

I beg to differ, we have Hydromorph Contins, we have Hycodan pills with no APAP (that's hydrocodone with no tylenol) and also in syrup form which has no hematropine or whatever bullshit in it to make you sick, we have Cophylac syrup (normethadone), generic oxycontins that are just like the old school stuff (you can munch em away) of course if you're a bit....dense and like to shoot up oxycodone and did it with oxycontins, I cannot be sure of what are in the about 10 different generic companies making it, Dilaudid is standard for dental procedures and most moderate pain because hycodan is rarely scripted due to the fact I think absolutely no province's med insurance pays for it (only downside of our hydrocodone), Talwin without naloxone, Codeine Contins (if you're the kind of person who reacts very well to codeine) a couple Codeine Contins 200mg will be awesome and the novice to noob will be glad not to have to do a fucking CWE You can just crush them too, wonders those things, if only they had scripted me them all year long and in sufficient quantity I would have never ended up on methadone, which was partially caused by me finding a pharm dealer + it felt double good to fuck the system that has trouble taking real diagnosed pain problems and mistreating it (i'm really sick of nerve drugs given for pain for example).

The only thing we lack is Oxymorphone and Heroin is hard to find out of vancouver and toronto, in montreal it is retarded expensive and rare so I dont know about other cities over 500 000 people but there is none in Qc City. But all of that could be good as these are 2 of the strongest and most euphoric opis....I'd still would really like to put my hands on the IR 10mg Opanas and have my way with it just once...oh well

So yeah, it's better to be here, not only is single payer health system an obviously better way of getting help, like all industrialized countries with a shred of care for their citizens...I understand americans thinking their government isn't them, when it should be, because they are so fucking cruel, i have no idea how much of obamacare has kicked in, but the fact it isn't simple and just free with a provincial card (i guess in the US it would be Federal...our equivalents of states has way more "rights" (I call em responsibilities, but all of that is another subject entirely) plus almost no opiate isn't covered here, I just checked and in Qc, 2 things aren't covered : Hycodan and Percocets/Percodans (probably why they are so rare here and docs will go with Oxy IR's instead, although I hear Percodan is still used a lot by old school dentists).

Health Canada did fuck with me, or maybe it was Purdue who voluntarily removed Oxycontin last year for 4 months, my pain problem was taken care of with either a couple Codeine Contin 200mg a day or 1 1/2 oxycontin 20mg (so 30mg a day, i think they came up with tons more different dosages in 2011 just to have most of them gone now too lol since the OxyNeo disaster)...so yeah, only thing I was able to find for my pain was dilaudid and we all know that does jack shit orally (and why it is so prescribed easily in the 1 and 2mg increments here) so Purdue basically fucked me with the temporary removal of Oxycontins (I was also unlucky that I was suddenly unable to get Oxy IR's/Supeudol at the same time) just for them to introduce OxyNeo and then the EXACT DAY I got out of inpatient methadone treatment beginnings about 8 or 9 companies started to make generic oxycontin just like the old stuff, my brother who never takes opiates for fun and has almost no knowledge of them got 15 of the 15mg PMS-Oxycodone CR generics for a broken arm) and I couldn't find any use for it since I was on 60mg of methadone at the time. So yeah, Canada fucked me up right there, but that's mostly my bad luck.