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Can we judge good or bad as a species?

I'm so fuckin tired of this. I understand his point. It's very simple. I have understood it for decades. Why are you both beating a dead horse?

Vegan you would do well to listen to your own advice.
 
Whats ridiculous is that you dont understand what people are saying but you think you do. Seriously, try what vegan said.. just think about this for a day then come back.
 
Off topic:

Since this thread remains derailed, I'll jump in.

MoonUnit said:
Well, i can prove that my perception of wood being able to catch fire is fact because.. well because i can make wood catch fire! Mental state doesnt come into the picture, im sorry.

You have pointed to intersubjectivity: where multiple parties align in terms of perceptions and actions, on the basis of mutually held assumptions, reflected back in actions through exchanges of reciprocity. The intersubjective includes what valid criteria for evaluating "truth" and "falsehood" should be. Still, all this could be accounted for as a matter of "opinion".

What I'm trying to get at is that the fact/opinion 'dichotomy' becomes a lot fuzzier than it would seem when you place it under scrutiny.

What you say about mental state and interpretation is just some typical 'im in the matrix ohnoes' hippy shit tbh. Anyone can say to anything 'yeah but its all down to interpretation, mental state maaaaan, mental state.' I mean seriously, you could say that to ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. Its the lamest, think-nothing, do-nothing, know-nothing argument ever created.

Good straw man.
I am not arguing for this picture. I would like for there to be a firm basis on which to evaluate truth, and I wouldn't reduce all being to mental states. I'm just trying to show that the matter is rather fuzzy and complex.

Vegan: I should have remembered that he's a more nuanced thinker than I was giving prior credit for in this thread. Apologies and kudos. ;)
...
Okay. Given all this, to reiterate a bit, where should we anchor our ethics in the realm of intersubjectivity?

ebola
 
no, dont mix fact with opinion sir. FACT the grass is green, OPINION you think hitler is bad.
And its very reasonable to you and in your opinion.



moonyham,
I will agree that the grass is green, because of the colours in the spectram and what hues exist in green and what green looks like, hence scientifically correct.

I also agree that "Hitler was bad" is an opinion for obviously others don't think so and they consider him as a good leader or other views, but the opinion of "Hitler was bad" is pretty valid when one clarifies what is considered as bad and for who and why were bad, then is considered a valid opinion....and when comparing it to what is good (something the author is asking by the way). ie., Poison ivy is not bad in itself but when you and huge amounts of people get affected badly by it, then it becomes bad and pretty valid to its classification as so. (a poor analogy/example)

But moonhem, why do you bring the worst out of people and in people? It is obvious that Shakti knows what is fact and what is opinion, but you tend to push buttons, and WHY?
He is mirroring your behavior here, when you do that, pushing your views down everyone's throat-AT TIMES when you switch on that mood!!! No need to run someone to the ground to prove your view, can't you use better tactics?
 
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but the opinion of "Hitler was bad" is pretty valid when one clarifies what is considered as bad and for who and why were bad, then is considered a valid opinion....and when comparing it to what is good (something the author is asking by the way)
you only clarify by comparing to someone else's opinion of good or bad

good and bad only have meaning within one's system of thoughts
as soon as you bring someone else in the equation, there is no objective judgement possible


it is not a fact that putting animals in cages is bad
it is my opinion
most people don't care about it, or actually think it's good because it brings meat to their plate

it is not a fact that poison ivy or hilter are bad
it's an opinion
if for example you think that the human race should perish (for instance because of the harm it does), you will find things that kill people to be good
 
OK vegan, you are right,..l..and the birds can sing....beautiful lullabies!!!

What else can one say, you win! Is this about who says the last word?

Obviously in my post, I stated-IT IS AN OPINION! Take it or leave it, it is an opinion and opinions are subjective, and when Hitler killed by the millions, it is my good sensed opinion that he was.......BAD,.....was BAD,.....was BAD,.....actually I think that echoes on Michael Jackson's song.

...and yes, I am comparing Hitler with Mother Teresa.....and guess what, it is MY OPINION...not someone else's

By the way, are you related to moonyham or nameless? Just curious, you seem to have the same way of communicating...


Peace brother!!
XXOO
 
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Oh here we go, down came Christ from the cross, to speak of evil!!

That is ALSO, an opinion my friend Jesus! And since you are not keeping yours to yourself, neither would I!!
 
LivingInTheMoment said:
moonyham,
I will agree that the grass is green, because of the colours in the spectram and what hues exist in green and what green looks like, hence scientifically correct.

I also agree that "Hitler was bad" is an opinion for obviously others don't think so and they consider him as a good leader or other views, but the opinion of "Hitler was bad" is pretty valid when one clarifies what is considered as bad and for who and why were bad, then is considered a valid opinion....and when comparing it to what is good (something the author is asking by the way). ie., Poison ivy is not bad in itself but when you and huge amounts of people get affected badly by it, then it becomes bad and pretty valid to its classification as so. (a poor analogy/example)

Well, vegan already answered most of what i was gonna say, but i thought id say this wee bit anyway when it comes to bad and good validity:

Dogs: Alot westerners might think of dog's as nothing but pets. Alot of koreans might think of dog's as nothing but food.
Cows: Alot of westerners might think of cows as nothing but food. Alot of indians might think of them as nothing but sacred animals.
Hitler: He killed millions and did gruesome experiments on people, but those gruesome experiments and other medical advances have SAVED thousands/millions of lives beyond the war and will continue too. Theres always 2 sides to every coin.

So who is wrong? Who is right? You see, its all down to how and where you are raised. social engineering, religion and your upbringing change these 'rights and wrongs'.

LivingInTheMoment said:
But moonhem, why do you bring the worst out of people and in people? It is obvious that Shakti knows what is fact and what is opinion, but you tend to push buttons, and WHY?
He is mirroring your behavior here, when you do that, pushing your views down everyone's throat-AT TIMES when you switch on that mood!!! No need to run someone to the ground to prove your view, can't you use better tactics?

I dont know man, people choose to react the way they do.. im not some sort of puppet master. I dont push my views down ANYONES throat.. my view is written in words and at anytime you can say 'no, ive had enough of this shit im not ready anymore'... im not some loud voice in a room that you cant block out.

-----------

Ebola.. i dont know what exactly your asking/saying.. the flame is still gonna burn yo ass, whether or not you put words like 'intersubjectivity' on it.
 
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Well, vegan already answered most of what i was gonna say, but i thought id say this wee bit anyway when it comes to bad and good validity:

[[[::Dogs: Alot westerners might think of dog's as nothing but pets. Alot of koreans might think of dog's as nothing but food.
Cows: Alot of westerners might think of cows as nothing but food. Alot of indians might think of them as nothing but sacred animals.
Hitler: He killed millions and did gruesome experiments on people, but those gruesome experiments and other medical advances have SAVED thousands/millions of lives beyond the war and will continue too. Theres always 2 sides to every coin.

So who is wrong? Who is right? You see, its all down to how and where you are raised. social engineering, religion and your upbringing change these 'rights and wrongs'.]]]


-----------
^^^

>>I have already agreed to all this I believe! Yes opinions!!



::I dont know man, people choose to react the way they do.. im not some sort of puppet master.

I dont push my views down ANYONES throat.. my view is written in words and at anytime you can say 'no, ive had enough of this shit im not ready anymore'... im not some loud voice in a room that you cant block out.

-------
>>Oh, but you do push your views, one look at it does it! But only at some point...at some time....you just jump off yourself!

>>But how can I block you out now, you are being so sweet!!
Nice to meet this part of you I didn't know existed! NO rage! ..but still telling us to P... O..
though in a nicer way if we argue your point or reflect that some kind of rebellion you go into! But....I think I am sticking around, like it or not! You don't have to like what I say in my posts for me to stay!
 
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Ebola.. i dont know what exactly your asking/saying.. the flame is still gonna burn yo ass, whether or not you put words like 'intersubjectivity' on it.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're too tired or whatever to give a reasoned reply (as I'm sure that you'll do later, if the topic interests you). Anything in particular not make sense?

Also, noting a future flame/pwnership in lieu of both a meaningful post and some substantive flame in the present does little to exhibit your wit. ;)


Intersubjectivity is a useful term when getting to these deeply metaphysical matters.
If you don't know a term, you can look it up or ask ther person who said it.

ebola
 
I don't see you liking your views reassessed either
err... do you mean that answering to a post with arguments is synonym to not liking my views reassessed?
you're missing something

when i have something to answer, i do it
that's the way communication goes

please consider the validity of what you say
i hope you're wise enough not to just say "no, you" as a knee-jerk reaction to anything you hadn't thought about


i'm the first one to put my views into question
and i'm open to anyone else doing it

when i became a vegan, that was a pretty damn big reassessment of my views, don't you think?

turning my back on the behaviour, which i shared before, of 99% of the population, to choose a way which would be uncomfortable in this society, would make me suffer everytime i think about the conditions of animals (humans included), would make me a constant target for people who don't like those who don't think like them

my view of killing has also changed since i became vegan (details in another thread if needed)


deciding that the god i was taught to believe in didn't exist... what is that if not a change of ideas?


how about the other thread in which i insist that my views are only subjective opinions rather than truths and that i may find in the future that they were incorrect?

this is why your posts seem to have no ends and why they are being highjacked, you definately don't let go!
or maybe i just have things to say
do you?

i'm the one who jokingly used the word "hijack" so readers would understand that the following was explanation of my point, not some raving about a different topic

People who are vegetarians, they deny their agressive instincts-the biting and chewing of meat. They live up in some upper strata of the universe, not in their bodies...too much idealism and the aggressive instinct is in the body, in the instincts.
people are different

don't judge others as if everyone was built on your model

no. i don't seem to have true agressive instincts
the only ones that i may have and try to shed are the ones that were forced into me by the society in which we live

now that i can think by myself, i try the best i can to get rid of those

if i had been born in a peaceful society, i think i wouldn't understand the concept of agressivity

What else can one say, you win! Is this about who says the last word?
from the same thread :
vegan said:
there's more interest in trying to find new ideas in others' points (ideas which will correct/improve yours) than trying to place your own
and i'm the first one who has to be reminded of that

in an argumentation, the winner is the one whose ideas have changed during the exchange, because he has progressed

the one whose ideas don't change doesn't win anything
if they were "right", he helps the other one get a better view of the argumentation
if they were "wrong", he wastes an opportunity to progress and keeps his flawed point of view

Obviously in my post, I stated-IT IS AN OPINION! Take it or leave it, it is an opinion and opinions are subjective, and when Hitler killed by the millions, it is my good sensed opinion that he was.......BAD,.....was BAD,.....was BAD,.....actually I think that echoes on Michael Jackson's song.

...and yes, I am comparing Hitler with Mother Teresa.....and guess what, it is MY OPINION...not someone else's
talk about adding an empty post for the sole purpose of having the illusion of the last word!

By the way, are you related to moonyham or nameless? Just curious, you seem to have the same way of communicating...
no
and as i don't usually pay much attention to the monikers of people, i may very well have argued against their points in other threads, or may do in future ones

there are no teams of people here, just ideas

"Opinions are evil. Keep yours to your self!"
who are you quoting?
i don't remember anyone saying/thinking this in this thread

That is ALSO, an opinion my friend Jesus!
what's the point of this post?
just to put oil on a fire which wasn't destroying anything in the first place?

seeing the first tease to me as jesus in the other thread to which you participate, i suppose this is adressed to me
i already adressed the ridiculous comparison. and it's rather sad that you may have nothing better to do than try to tease me

And since you are not keeping yours [opinions] to yourself, neither would I!!
great! that's the whole point of this forum
please, do bring some arguments with your opinions
 
People who are vegetarians, they deny their agressive instincts-the biting and chewing of meat. They live up in some upper strata of the universe, not in their bodies...too much idealism and the aggressive instinct is in the body, in the instincts.

While tangential, this might steer things back on topic.
 
VEGAN, you have taken material from another thread, and brought them to this thread!

This is unacceptable behavior, and disrespectful to the author of both threads. I send you my answers via a pm, it is the right thing to do, to not hijack peoples' threads, for private argument!

By the way, it is Self Absorbsion, to takes other poster's posts, and think that everything is about you!! ...and a bit of paranoia there, since I did not relate you to Jesus!
The last 3 quotes you made, is a conversation between Shakti and me, so please, don't mishandle things, leave those alone, surely you have answered plenty for your perspective, more then I could handle to answer.
 
guise:
please try to return to topic (or any related). Squablng, metadiscussion belong in a separate thread or not at all. ;)
I might be hypocritical here. damn.
 
^mmkay

As an attempt to move forward. I'll give a point to work from.

We can judge right and wrong. Not only can we, but we can't stop. Discerning good from bad is essential and intrinsic to every single task we perform.

And for the fragmented pluralists out there, your attempts at killing this truth with dissociated relativism wont work. This is true cross-culturally and in every single human being.

Discuss
 
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