• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe

Can we judge good or bad as a species?

No, I'm just saying that you can't *prove* that it will. There's a difference.
 
moonyham said:
... There is something that is fact, that means it can be proven by science or what ever. ...
Click to expand...

Science can only ever disprove, never prove, since it's dealing with hypotheses.

The issue of proving something is not so straightforward as giving convincing evidence, at least not formally. I think we're just getting hung up on the semantics of "proof".

I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems to me that Shakti is right that everything (outside of formal math etc.) is opinion. What does that have to do with the thread topic tho?
 
Some people are trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be. :/ Trying to be absurdly profound and all.

Now to get back on topic...

Who is to judge what is right and wrong? Society tells us doing this is bad, and those that do not follow these guidelines are fucked up. But why are they fucked up? Because they don't follow social norms?

There is no good and bad. That's just some label people made up just as they made up a label for every other human emotion or action.
 
i agree endy. Society likes to label people. It makes people feel better about themselves that 'there not in that group' and so on. Its mostly fueled by 'religious nuts'(i feel good im not in that group ;)) so until we wipe out religion, we are gonna continue to have people judge others.
 
dude, i fuckin know the difference between opinion and 'fact'. I was taught that in first grade and I don't need to be told redundantly by someone who wont consider anything I say. I recognize that 'nazis were bad' is an opinion. You have failed to answer why i shouldn't argue my opinion. You have failed to answer why opinions are to be devalued. Is it your opinion that facts are better than opinions?

Whos to say what does and doesnt have meaning? what IS meaning? Whos to say what meaning is and isnt?
Click to expand...

All of us determine what has meaning. Meaning is recognition and understanding. Do you not understand the meaning of meaning?

Vegan, you insult me by saying I have failed to understand his distinction of the two. Do you think I'm that stupid?
 
moonyham said:
i agree endy. Society likes to label people. It makes people feel better about themselves that 'there not in that group' and so on. Its mostly fueled by 'religious nuts'(i feel good im not in that group ;)) so until we wipe out religion, we are gonna continue to have people judge others.
Click to expand...

I think its society that is fucked up here! And yes religion too...but I dont wanna offend any religious people hear by blabbing off my atheistic views. Religion has and always will be a touchy subject with people. And yeah, I think a lot of judging was founded by religion, if you read some of the things they preached about in the bible.
 
Shakti said:
dude, i fuckin know the difference between opinion and 'fact'. I was taught that in first grade and I don't need to be told redundantly by someone who wont consider anything I say. I recognize that 'nazis were bad' is an opinion. You have failed to answer why i shouldn't argue my opinion. You have failed to answer why opinions are to be devalued. Is it your opinion that facts are better than opinions?



All of us determine what has meaning. Meaning is recognition and understanding. Do you not understand the meaning of meaning?

Vegan, you insult me by saying I have failed to understand his distinction of the two. Do you think I'm that stupid?
Click to expand...

Dude, you were mixing fact and opinion.. dont even try and tell me you werent because all you have to do is look at page 2 and see you saying 'a very reasonable one, no?' to me saying something of yours is an opinion. Theres no such thing as factual reasoning... reasoning is completely subjective and thus not factual, just like morals.

I never said opinions mean less than facts, im just pointing out that your opinion is what is deciding whats right and wrong and that NOTHING is right and wrong... thats fact, there is no such thing as a certain activity being right or wrong because that is subjective to the person and thus not factual. THAT is what ive been trying to tell you the whole time and if you still dont understand then FUCK IT im not gonna even bother cause your obviously an idiot if you cant understand this shit.
 
alasdairm said:
if you have a glass of warm water, it's hotter than a glass of cold water and colder than a glass of hot water.

your paragraph here seems to say "until we find a glass of water hotter than this warm glass, we can not legitimately judge the relative temperature of this glass". this doesn't make any sense to me at all.


alasdair
Click to expand...

I think I get your point Alasdair. As I believe the human race is being compared to a "lesser" form as we speak and have been ever since we have had "memory" of the past. Because human history is all we have to relatively compare ourselfs with in this present, hence evolution theory. Now thanks to science, we can now compare ourselfs not to just our past selfs, or even when we were apes. But to every other species on this planet too.

Hmmmmm
 
Last edited:
neonads said:
Individuals can be good or bad, but whole groups? I doubt it. What is it that makes these groups take on moral judgment? How can individuals honestly remove their own responsibility when in groups?
Click to expand...
Most definately whole groups can be bad. There is a whole group psychology, how people behave when in a group. What happened in the Iraqui prisons, was group bad behavior, and the same goes in all similar situations, Nazi's included as well as the Vietnam war.
Dehumanization is the central process. It is nothing to do with disposition, and I think this is where you are coming from, but with situational force fields. In dehumanization, the transformation of normal people takes over into turning them into indiferent or even wanton perpetrators of evil and fosters the perception that other people are less then human. It makes some people come to see those others as enemies deserving of torment, torture and annihilation. This was what took place in Nazi Germany.
 
moonyham said:
Dude, you were mixing fact and opinion.. dont even try and tell me you werent because all you have to do is look at page 2 and see you saying 'a very reasonable one, no?' to me saying something of yours is an opinion. Theres no such thing as factual reasoning... reasoning is completely subjective and thus not factual, just like morals.
Click to expand...

If you had taken the time to understand what I wrote, you'd see that I was saying it is a reasonable 'opinion'. Plus, you’re wrong. Deductive reasoning is strictly factual. 1+1=2 is factual reasoning. Also, inductive reasoning is essential to life.

im just pointing out that your opinion is what is deciding whats right and wrong
Click to expand...

I never argued otherwise.

and that NOTHING is right and wrong... thats fact,
Click to expand...

That's opinion all day fool, not fact, and by your very own definition. LIVE BY YOUR OWN FUCKING RULES BEFORE YOU TRY AND PUT THEM ON ME.

there is no such thing as a certain activity being right or wrong because that is subjective to the person and thus not factual.
Click to expand...

If everything that is subjective to a person is not factual, then nothing is factual because everything you can point to, everything that is your world is subjective. Your whole fucking world is subjective. If the subjective isn’t factual, as you say, then you are a lie son!

Subject interpretation does exist. It is real and the only way you could deny it would be to deny your own existence.

THAT is what ive been trying to tell you the whole time and if you still dont understand then FUCK IT im not gonna even bother cause your obviously an idiot if you cant understand this shit.
Click to expand...

I understand what you’re saying. I have the whole fucking time. Now this time, try and understand what I am saying. That’s how a discussion works… asshat.
 
Vegan, you insult me by saying I have failed to understand his distinction of the two. Do you think I'm that stupid?
Click to expand...
i didin't insult you
you felt insulted
there's quite a difference

by someone who wont consider anything I say
Click to expand...
have you considered that, maybe, you weren't actually trying to see why he was insisting and what he may mean that was different from what you were sure to already understand?

we all have certitudes that we consider so obvious that we don't actually listen when others put them in question

i didn't say you couldn't understand his distinction
but i think you didn't try to, replacing it instead by your certitudes

there's more interest in trying to find new ideas in others' points (ideas which will correct/improve yours) than trying to place your own
and i'm the first one who has to be reminded of that

in an argumentation, the winner is the one whose ideas have changed during the exchange, because he has progressed

the one whose ideas don't change doesn't win anything
if they were "right", he helps the other one get a better view of the argumentation
if they were "wrong", he wastes an opportunity to progress and keeps his flawed point of view
 
you'd see that I was saying it is a reasonable 'opinion'
Click to expand...
1000 years ago, it was a reasonable 'opinion' that the earth was flat

That's opinion all day fool, not fact, and by your very own definition
Click to expand...
he explained why it was a fact and not an opinion : right and wrong are subjective views. so "NOTHING is right and wrong" is a fact, since it states that right and wrong cannot be judged as facts but only as subjective opinions

If everything that is subjective to a person is not factual, then nothing is factual because everything you can point to, everything that is your world is subjective. Your whole fucking world is subjective. If the subjective isn’t factual, as you say, then you are a lie son!
Click to expand...
the subjectivity of how we perceive facts is not the same "subjectivity" as the one which stains our opinions


simple example

we don't hear the same wave frequences as other animals, that's a subjective interpretation of a fact (the waves, which do exist)

i don't think the same as you do about eating meat, that a subjective opinion


opinion : you can argue about "should we eat meat or no?"
fact : you can't argue about "should we hear the same frequences as cats do?"
(that you can argue or no is not the definition of the difference, but it's a short-cut cause i'm going to bed now :) )
 
^i wasn't really insulted. it's just a way of speaking. when i point to the moon, dont look at my finger.

And yes. I am certain I understand what he is saying. No he never actually questioned any of my 'certitudes.' I didn't try to understand his distinction, I did understand his distinction. opinion/fact this is basic shit.

The rest I agree with. Please see how hard I'm trying to let him win... Yet he won't engage any of my points, just blandly repeating his own. You should be directing this at him...
 
he explained why it was a fact and not an opinion : right and wrong are subjective views. so "NOTHING is right and wrong" is a fact, since it explained that right and wrong cannot be judged as facts but only as subjective opinions
Click to expand...

Nope. It is not fact. it is an unverifiable, non-objective, opinionated declaration. Everything is right or wrong or somewhere in the middle. You are human. You have opinions on things, you evaluate things, you judge things. Try and stop. Furthermore. Opinions can be judged as facts. People do it all the time. It's simply your opinion that they shouldn't be (not that they cannot, because they most certainly can). And in doing so you made your opinion a fact, breaking your own rule and illustrating that opinions can be viewed as fact.
 
I did understand his distinction
Click to expand...
you obviously don't understand it the same way as he does
both should consider what the other is trying to say
and hopefully, one of the two will get the other's point

when i point to the moon, dont look at my finger.
Click to expand...
that's low and doesn't fit the case at all

Please see how hard I'm trying to let him win
Click to expand...
you probably posted before having seen my latest post (2 min before yours)
consider my view of "winning"
 
Opinions can be judged as facts. People do it all the time. It's simply your opinion that they shouldn't be (not that they cannot, because they most certainly can)
Click to expand...
hence, moonyham will "blandly repeat his point"... since you still haven't tried to understand it

^^ can you please consider this for one day and only post after, cause you're really in a dead-end if you don't ask yourself "and what if my logic was flawed and his was correct?" and just answer "no, you're wrong" like a brick wall

i won't reply again tonight because it'd be useless until some time is taken to reflect
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top