Benzos Can sporadic benzo use cause kindling?

[cletusSamboy]

I've used valium once a week for about 6 months and at first I never experience rebound symptoms but over time a few days after use I would begin to have minor rebound anxiety and then eventually depression for about 3/4 days after use. Then memory problems began to occur as well. If I needed to call out someone's name or ask someone to pass something to me I'd suddenly be unable to recall the name of them or object for about 5 seconds. Use of other gaba drugs would now cause rebound anxiety/depression. Even threshold amounts of other benzos would lead to rebound symptoms. Mind you this problem never occured before using valium on an off and I could have a beer or pop a xanny without falling into an almost suicidal depression for the next week.

So my question can on/off use of benzos and repeatedly experiencing minor rebound symptoms cause kindling or is this just a rare side effect?

 

[darvocet21]

I think that wood causes kindling

 

[ryax]

I've used valium once a week for about 6 months and at first I never experience rebound symptoms but over time a few days after use I would begin to have minor rebound anxiety and then eventually depression for about 3/4 days after use. Then memory problems began to occur as well. If I needed to call out someone's name or ask someone to pass something to me I'd suddenly be unable to recall the name of them or object for about 5 seconds. Use of other gaba drugs would now cause rebound anxiety/depression. Even threshold amounts of other benzos would lead to rebound symptoms. Mind you this problem never occured before using valium on an off and I could have a beer or pop a xanny without falling into an almost suicidal depression for the next week.

So my question can on/off use of benzos and repeatedly experiencing minor rebound symptoms cause kindling or is this just a rare side effect?

by rebound anxiety do you mean that your anxiety gets worse or you are having a physiological reaction that is giving you anxiety?
sometimes when i feel burnt out, and burnt out + burnt out from drugs i think my GABA gets fucked and vitamins help
would get this jerking sensation that was very unpleasant.

 

[ryax]

Ever tried Gabapentin? Maybe Valium is too strong, lasts too long for you. Most single valium uses have a afterglow the next day until you become tolerant, you feel a bit fuzzy

 

[cletusSamboy]

Ever tried Gabapentin? Maybe Valium is too strong, lasts too long for you. Most single valium uses have a afterglow the next day until you become tolerant, you feel a bit fuzzy

Never tried it but if it's anything like pregabalin I'd probably hate it or find it useless. Pregabalin had no relaxed feeling and had similar side effects like memory problems for a few weeks after one dose.
Valium I find is nice middle ground benzo when dosed at 5mg. Five hours of relaxation and with no delusions of sobriety or sedation. I get no real side effects if used no more than once a month. It took about 1 year to recover from the side effects after using once a week.

 

[cletusSamboy]

by rebound anxiety do you mean that your anxiety gets worse or you are having a physiological reaction that is giving you anxiety?
sometimes when i feel burnt out, and burnt out + burnt out from drugs i think my GABA gets fucked and vitamins help
would get this jerking sensation that was very unpleasant.

By rebound anxiety I mean it's like I'm having minor withdrawal symptoms of anxiety where my body is readjusting to the decrease in gaba. I don't have general anxiety so it's purely a reaction from the lower level of valium. Maybe my gaba downregulated very quickly or something.
Clonazolam I've read does this to a lot of people after one dose. One dose will see some people almost seizing once it wears off.

 

[cdin]

it's a very genetic thing, and imo if you're getting rebound with sporadic use - do yourself a favor and shelve that shit except for once or twice a year emergency. I did not heed the warnings, and I wish very much I had gotten this message/listened to it before ending up with for real benzo withdrawals. IME they made opioid withdrawals look stupid. which is wild.

 

[Lorne???]

Ever tried Gabapentin? Maybe Valium is too strong, lasts too long for you. Most single valium uses have a afterglow the next day until you become tolerant, you feel a bit fuzzy

Lasts too long? It literally has a duration of 1-4 hours IV, and up to 6 hours PO

And it is a mild benzo

Nonetheless, if you are bringing once a week, that could eventually cause neurological changes, that are hopefully just semi-permanent

However, if you are taking 10-20mg Valium once a week it would be unheard of tonhave rebound effects in the manner you describe

What is your dose? In any case, maybe skip the Valium for a week and see what happens; it could be the anxiety you were selfnmedicating for has gotten worse

And really people, as much as I have posted over the years, we have to dispel the strange myth that Valium is long lasting. Yes, it's half life equals Clonazepams, yet, unlike Klonopin Valium (diazepam) is highly lipid soluble, meaning it is rapidly absorbed, almost immediately penetrates the CNS fully, and then quickly exits where. It is redistributed to adipose tissue and preferentially stored in other organs. It is also highly protein bound, and at that point, it becomes useless, as it never reaches the cns in appreciable amounts again after a single dose. Now, multiple large doses may be a different story, though they never rx that much because if you need that much they just give you a stronger benzo

Remember they give Valium and Tranxene( a " near perfect " product for nordazepam that is converted in the stomach both qid: if UT lastedn24 hours, why RX itb4 times a day? Because it does not; Valium is a rapid onset classical Benzodiazepine with a short duration, Tranxene is a partial agonist that is intermediate acting

Sorry, I have just been gone awhile and we have a new set of users who are uneducated about these things

To the OP, cut down the.benzo use just to find out what happens, though weekly Valium use, unless you are taking 100mg at a time, should not be doing this (100mg Valium = 2.5-5mg clonazepam, or 10mg lorazepam PO)

 

[cletusSamboy]

To the OP, cut down the.benzo use just to find out what happens, though weekly Valium use, unless you are taking 100mg at a time, should not be doing this (100mg Valium = 2.5-5mg clonazepam, or 10mg lorazepam PO)

I was only taking 5mg once or twice a week so I wasn't binging.

 

[Lorne???]

That is simply not enough to cause rebound symptoms. That is like 0.25mg Xanax or 0.125-0.25 MG (micrograms?, really) of clonazepam (Klonopin) so maybe your anxiety has just gotten worse? I would up your dose to 10mg, honestly

 

[cletusSamboy]

That is simply not enough to cause rebound symptoms. That is like 0.25mg Xanax or 0.125-0.25 MG (micrograms?, really) of clonazepam (Klonopin) so maybe your anxiety has just gotten worse? I would up your dose to 10mg, honestly

That's what I thought but I only had this problem with valium, xanax and clonazepam were both ok to use.
Clonazolam (0.25mg) and flualprazolam (1mg) causes rebound symptoms but much worse including night sweats and severe depression.

 

[cdin]

That's what I thought but I only had this problem with valium, xanax and clonazepam were both ok to use.
Clonazolam (0.25mg) and flualprazolam (1mg) causes rebound symptoms but much worse including night sweats and severe depression.

you are giving yourself kindling symptoms with the long acting, low dose gaba activation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_(sedative–hypnotic_withdrawal). stop doing that. It's super nuerotoxic and will only make things worse in the long run. either jump of the bzds, or take enough that it's actually fully activating the gaba system. read the ashton manual too, it is pretty specific not to taper below 1mg of diazepam for this reason. it makes things worse.

 

[cletusSamboy]

you are giving yourself kindling symptoms with the long acting, low dose gaba activation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindling_(sedative–hypnotic_withdrawal). stop doing that. It's super nuerotoxic and will only make things worse in the long run. either jump of the bzds, or take enough that it's actually fully activating the gaba system. read the ashton manual too, it is pretty specific not to taper below 1mg of diazepam for this reason. it makes things worse.

I was taking 5mg of valium once or twice a week which is a standard dose and got full effects from it. I never took sub 1mg valium doses or microdosed other benzos. I just noticed over time I was getting more and more worse rebound symtoms and side effects from my on-off valium once/bi weekly use. The problem I believe is that I was withdrawing from valium over and over again which is bad. The advice is to either take benzos everyday or no more than once or twice a month. The repeated minor withdrawal slowly causes kindling effects.

 

[polarthedog]

That is simply not enough to cause rebound symptoms. That is like 0.25mg Xanax or 0.125-0.25 MG (micrograms?, really) of clonazepam (Klonopin) so maybe your anxiety has just gotten worse? I would up your dose to 10mg, honestly

I disagree, and Ime, 10 mg of Valium = 1-2 mg clonazepam/1-2 mg xanax

It’s subjective, everyone react s differently to every benzo, what he/she describes is rebound anxiety/withdrawal

So to the op, assuming your telling the truth, yes, a once a week dose of 5 mg Valium is enough to cause kindling, your experience is proof of that.

Nobody can tell you how any drug will affect you with 100%certainty, pay attention o how your body reacts to different drugs, and learn from it.

It may help out write down your dosage s of drugs and how they make you feel, that way if you forget, you can look at your notes. Though 10 years from now you may not react the same way

Ime, if you take an addictive drug like Valium, the resulting withdrawals correlate directly with the dosage you take, if you take 1 mg Valium every day for example, that’s enough to cause withdrawals, 0.5 mg a day would be too, it just wouldn’t be as bad as the withdrawals you’ll get from 10 mg a day. If you take Valium, plan to be addicted, if your cool with bei no addicted, go ahead and take it. There’s not many loo p holes to addiction (see ibogaine)

 

[cdin]

I disagree, and Ime, 10 mg of Valium = 1-2 mg clonazepam/1-2 mg xanax

It’s subjective, everyone react s differently to every benzo, what he/she describes is rebound anxiety/withdrawal

So to the op, assuming your telling the truth, yes, a once a week dose of 5 mg Valium is enough to cause kindling, your experience is proof of that.

Nobody can tell you how any drug will affect you with 100%certainty, pay attention o how your body reacts to different drugs, and learn from it.

It may help out write down your dosage s of drugs and how they make you feel, that way if you forget, you can look at your notes. Though 10 years from now you may not react the same way

Ime, if you take an addictive drug like Valium, the resulting withdrawals correlate directly with the dosage you take, if you take 1 mg Valium every day for example, that’s enough to cause withdrawals, 0.5 mg a day would be too, it just wouldn’t be as bad as the withdrawals you’ll get from 10 mg a day. If you take Valium, plan to be addicted, if your cool with bei no addicted, go ahead and take it. There’s not many loo p holes to addiction (see ibogaine)

This is almost correct, except for the way kindling works is constant activation/damage which occurs BELOW the GABA activation threshold (enough GABA alleviates the neurotoxic damage from the rebounds). If you want to kindle in mice studies, it's far more effective to hit their brain with long-term, low dose electrical stimulation until eventually, they have no seizure threshold. The same thing occurs when you get down to micro-doses of GABA drugs. This is why the Ashton manual is specific not to taper below 1mg of diazepam. Below that you are just increasing the damage/making things worse. there's a certain point with GABA drugs where you have to make a clean jump and just eat the symptoms, obviously, you should get as low as you can above that threshold, and be stable there before jumping.

destroying your seizure threshold/throwing off your glutamate/GABA balance is one of the most awful/painful things a human can experience. it truly is as stevie nicks describes it "walking out of hell" *and i agree w you @polarthedog that a lot is up to individual genetic makeup, i think largely based on how functional your GABA system is to begin with. Good example - myself, my sister and mom all can experience AWS from a night of 6 beers, even after not drinking for years. Starting drinking we would get similar problems waaaaaay before any of the kids i was partying with did. We also suffer a lot from general anxiety, medicated or not.

 

[polarthedog]

This is almost correct, except for the way kindling works is constant activation/damage which occurs BELOW the GABA activation threshold (enough GABA alleviates the neurotoxic damage from the rebounds). If you want to kindle in mice studies, it's far more effective to hit their brain with long-term, low dose electrical stimulation until eventually, they have no seizure threshold. The same thing occurs when you get down to micro-doses of GABA drugs. This is why the Ashton manual is specific not to taper below 1mg of diazepam. Below that you are just increasing the damage/making things worse. there's a certain point with GABA drugs where you have to make a clean jump and just eat the symptoms, obviously, you should get as low as you can above that threshold, and be stable there before jumping.

destroying your seizure threshold/throwing off your glutamate/GABA balance is one of the most awful/painful things a human can experience. it truly is as stevie nicks describes it "walking out of hell" *and i agree w you @polarthedog that a lot is up to individual genetic makeup, i think largely based on how functional your GABA system is to begin with. Good example - myself, my sister and mom all can experience AWS from a night of 6 beers, even after not drinking for years. Starting drinking we would get similar problems waaaaaay before any of the kids i was partying with did. We also suffer a lot from general anxiety, medicated or not.

This is almost correct, except for the way kindling works is constant activation/damage which occurs BELOW the GABA activation threshold (enough GABA alleviates the neurotoxic damage from the rebounds). If you want to kindle in mice studies, it's far more effective to hit their brain with long-term, low dose electrical stimulation until eventually, they have no seizure threshold. The same thing occurs when you get down to micro-doses of GABA drugs. This is why the Ashton manual is specific not to taper below 1mg of diazepam. Below that you are just increasing the damage/making things worse. there's a certain point with GABA drugs where you have to make a clean jump and just eat the symptoms, obviously, you should get as low as you can above that threshold, and be stable there before jumping.

destroying your seizure threshold/throwing off your glutamate/GABA balance is one of the most awful/painful things a human can experience. it truly is as stevie nicks describes it "walking out of hell" *and i agree w you @polarthedog that a lot is up to individual genetic makeup, i think largely based on how functional your GABA system is to begin with. Good example - myself, my sister and mom all can experience AWS from a night of 6 beers, even after not drinking for years. Starting drinking we would get similar problems waaaaaay before any of the kids i was partying with did. We also suffer a lot from general anxiety, medicated or not.

Perhaps you know more about kindling than I do, do those rules apply to just kindling from gaba drugs, or all drugs? And once you get below 1 mg of Valium, how exactly is it making things worse? Wouldn’t it just be like weaning? Or are you saying it would cause kindling if you took a 0.5 mg of Valium every day for a year? I’m just not understanding your point or where I was wrong

 

[cdin]

in general this applies to all GABA drugs. Single, small doses of ethanol frequently do the same thing. You are better off with a large dose, that fully activates the GABA system, otherwise as it wears off the glutamate comes back and begins causing nuerotoxic damage ( in the form of constant low level electrical signal, much like the signal run into the mice brain --- the NMDA system is like a gate. that lets electricity through. it has two keys, glycine and glutamate. constant glutamate activation means you constantly have low level electrical activity happening --- . If you are under a certain threshold of GABA activity (a couple drinks of booze, 1mg of diazepam) ^^^ this starts happening which causes progressive damage. PRobably the worst drinking pattern you could have for cumulative damage is like, 2,3 drinks at lunch, stop til 9, drink more w dinner, let that wear off, drink til sleep. wake up, have a single to off the shakes, rinse and repeat. much better just drinking 12 drinks once a week.

conversely - you ALSO don't want to fuck up your glutamate receptor balance. for example -- doing NMDA antagonists all the time builds a weird tolerance where all of sudden you can't hole no matter how much you take. well, the catatonia/bodily shut down was being caused by ketamine jamming the glutamate side of the NMDA gate and shutting down all electrics. When you do this all the time, the body starts compensating, I'm not sure if it adds more glutamate receptor sites or what, but over time you can walk around/talk/do whatever on massive doses. as you come off, you have all this extra electrical activity, similar to too little gaba. it's a complicated dance we do w the inhibitory/excitatory chemicals in our body. fucking with it is a bad idea (taken me going on two years to get better from that kind of damage, the first year was an absolute hellscape where i could barely use doorknobs due to constant severe tremor. not cool at all)

 

[cdin]

in general this applies to all GABA drugs. Single, small doses of ethanol frequently do the same thing. You are better off with a large dose, that fully activates the GABA system, otherwise as it wears off the glutamate comes back and begins causing nuerotoxic damage ( in the form of constant low level electrical signal, much like the signal run into the mice brain --- the NMDA system is like a gate. that lets electricity through. it has two keys, glycine and glutamate. constant glutamate activation means you constantly have low level electrical activity happening --- . If you are under a certain threshold of GABA activity (a couple drinks of booze, 1mg of diazepam) ^^^ this starts happening which causes progressive damage. PRobably the worst drinking pattern you could have for cumulative damage is like, 2,3 drinks at lunch, stop til 9, drink more w dinner, let that wear off, drink til sleep. wake up, have a single to off the shakes, rinse and repeat. much better just drinking 12 drinks once a week.

conversely - you ALSO don't want to fuck up your glutamate receptor balance. for example -- doing NMDA antagonists all the time builds a weird tolerance where all of sudden you can't hole no matter how much you take. well, the catatonia/bodily shut down was being caused by ketamine jamming the glutamate side of the NMDA gate and shutting down all electrics. When you do this all the time, the body starts compensating, I'm not sure if it adds more glutamate receptor sites or what, but over time you can walk around/talk/do whatever on massive doses. as you come off, you have all this extra electrical activity, similar to too little gaba. it's a complicated dance we do w the inhibitory/excitatory chemicals in our body. fucking with it is a bad idea (taken me going on two years to get better from that kind of damage, the first year was an absolute hellscape where i could barely use doorknobs due to constant severe tremor. not cool at all)

the rebound from massive doses can of course trigger damage as well. (not to say the ONLY way is the chronic low way, just that it's easier to do than massive constant intake/abuse. people do it and don't realize it). basically any time your glutamate/electrical activity it noticeably outstripping the GABA inhibitory activity in a way where you can feel it (it feels subjectively like your brain is cooking) -- when you're getting the bad anxiety/shakes/small hallucinations(swimmy vision stuff)/sweats -- that's all bad news. however, your brain does do better going through a larger (though not catastrophic) insult once in a blue moon than constant low-level insult to the electrical system.

 

[polarthedog]

in general this applies to all GABA drugs. Single, small doses of ethanol frequently do the same thing. You are better off with a large dose, that fully activates the GABA system, otherwise as it wears off the glutamate comes back and begins causing nuerotoxic damage ( in the form of constant low level electrical signal, much like the signal run into the mice brain --- the NMDA system is like a gate. that lets electricity through. it has two keys, glycine and glutamate. constant glutamate activation means you constantly have low level electrical activity happening --- . If you are under a certain threshold of GABA activity (a couple drinks of booze, 1mg of diazepam) ^^^ this starts happening which causes progressive damage. PRobably the worst drinking pattern you could have for cumulative damage is like, 2,3 drinks at lunch, stop til 9, drink more w dinner, let that wear off, drink til sleep. wake up, have a single to off the shakes, rinse and repeat. much better just drinking 12 drinks once a week.

conversely - you ALSO don't want to fuck up your glutamate receptor balance. for example -- doing NMDA antagonists all the time builds a weird tolerance where all of sudden you can't hole no matter how much you take. well, the catatonia/bodily shut down was being caused by ketamine jamming the glutamate side of the NMDA gate and shutting down all electrics. When you do this all the time, the body starts compensating, I'm not sure if it adds more glutamate receptor sites or what, but over time you can walk around/talk/do whatever on massive doses. as you come off, you have all this extra electrical activity, similar to too little gaba. it's a complicated dance we do w the inhibitory/excitatory chemicals in our body. fucking with it is a bad idea (taken me going on two years to get better from that kind of damage, the first year was an absolute hellscape where i could barely use doorknobs due to constant severe tremor. not cool at all)

In that case, would the 120 mg of dxm I take a day and 5 grams of black seed oil prevent any neurotoxicity?

the rebound from massive doses can of course trigger damage as well. (not to say the ONLY way is the chronic low way, just that it's easier to do than massive constant intake/abuse. people do it and don't realize it). basically any time your glutamate/electrical activity it noticeably outstripping the GABA inhibitory activity in a way where you can feel it (it feels subjectively like your brain is cooking) -- when you're getting the bad anxiety/shakes/small hallucinations(swimmy vision stuff)/sweats -- that's all bad news. however, your brain does do better going through a larger (though not catastrophic) insult once in a blue moon than constant low-level insult to the electrical system.

i did 1.8 grams of dxm a day for a week straight my first time using it, and that kinda scares me because my brain felt like a scrambled egg for a month+ afterwards

Also,is the daily dxm causing this sort of damage?

 

[polarthedog]

the rebound from massive doses can of course trigger damage as well. (not to say the ONLY way is the chronic low way, just that it's easier to do than massive constant intake/abuse. people do it and don't realize it). basically any time your glutamate/electrical activity it noticeably outstripping the GABA inhibitory activity in a way where you can feel it (it feels subjectively like your brain is cooking) -- when you're getting the bad anxiety/shakes/small hallucinations(swimmy vision stuff)/sweats -- that's all bad news. however, your brain does do better going through a larger (though not catastrophic) insult once in a blue moon than constant low-level insult to the electrical system.

And btw, I am physically addicted to the dxm, and I take 600 mg of gabapentin a day, though I’m weaning off the gabapentin right now.

I have read that while staying addicted to downers isn’t really something that causes damage, it looked like cold turkey withdrawal from a downe could cause brain damage due to the super high levels of cortisol, I wasn’t aware of all that the you old me though

I’ve been thinking I should probably take a month off the dxm and kratom and stuff, It’s difficult and dangerous for me though, I tend to become very unstable emotionally when in withdrawal, and I am very muscular, I don’t want to end up hurting people I care about