Can someone "opiate detoxed" take opiates now and then and not get hooked again?

[Beerman]

Can someone "opiate detoxed" take opiates now and then and not get hooked again?

Yep, basically that's the question, I coudn't find any post about that, I'm sorry if there are.

I've been opiate user for... 5 years or so (have tried H, codeine, dihidrocodeine, tramadol, dextropropoxyphene and buprenorphine as far as I remember), and I get hooked 2 years ago on H, I was in and out for a while, detoxing by myself tapering H and with codeine or whatever I had, then back again until I get into subs, I was almost detoxed of subs (.02mg) then I started messing with O-DT, and I'm almost out of one O-DT binges..

And I was asking to myself what I always do "is this a forever goodbye to opiates, or maybe some day in the near future I could take one shot of H and then stay sober for a while, and then use it again now and then as I used to do few years ago, without getting addicted?" Because I think about it and I know I'm going to miss them.. I know that stoping opiates is a matter of willpower, if you MUST stop using you won't do it, but if you really WANT to stop it's more likely to do it. What I want is not being addicted, but keep using sometimes, maybe once a week?
Also I want to try more opiates.. (morphine, oxycodone/morphone, hydroc/m, fent...)

So the question is, what do you think guys? is it possible to use ocasionally opiates after being hooked on them many times? is it a willpower issue or is it simply not possible? because ALL therapists told me that it's impossible that when you get hooked once, you'll be hooked again and again every time you try again, but I don't know why I have this (maybe stupid) idea that I can do it. Some of you had similar experience and did it?

Thanks a lot!!

Cheers

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

While it certainly is possible...a lot of people have relapsed this way.

 

[Doug2113]

I think that all depends on your constitution...granted, you WILL become dependent and build a tolerance a lot faster than someone that has never been dependent on opioids, but the addiction is all on your end. You probably already know this, but I'll provide a few definitions for readers so that things will become more clear. I preach this stuff because I'm a chronic pain patient, and I feel the need to educate people, so that they understand medicinal use of painkillers a bit better, and are a bit more accepting of it. Albeit, I do like to use them recreationally on occasion, I normally just use them medicinally.

dependence-a physiological response to a drug in which the body depends on the drug to function normally and when use is stopped abruptly, withdrawal incurs
tolerance-a physiological response to repeated drug use in which it takes a larger dose of aforementioned drug to elicit the same response as before
addiction-a psychological state of dependence on a drug characterized by drug craving and drug seeking behaviors

There's definitely a fine line, but you can experience dependence without addiction and addiction without dependence...

Like I said, it's all a willpower thing as far as the "getting hooked" unless you are speaking in terms of "will I go into withdrawals when I try to stop," to which the answer is, you will experience this (and tolerance) quicker than the first time this happened.

 

[Allein]

I'll add my view as someone who has been lucky enough not to have come into contact with opiates other than the odd bit of DHC mainly for pain relief.

Howevere over the last few years I have definately developed a real issue with addiction (and tolernace) I had a growing problem with alchohol which has been going on for 3 years and had required treatment in order for me to stop, in the same period I have been on and off Benzos and currently on a taper from an embarrasing daily intake. I'm working from home today and its hell on earth not taking any until my self alloted time I havent had a drink since 1/7/2011 and comming up to Christmas it's a real challenge.

Coke, Meph MDPV, I can't be in possession of any of them becuase I'd just take them, just like I couldnt have a bottle of whiskey in the house.

This is all very personal you might be able to deal with it but I've become (or always was, there still trying to wrok that all out) a very black and white person. I'm either doing it or not, if I had an 8th of coke right now I'd start doing it and wouldnt stop until it was all gone, that just how I am.

I know people who arent like that but I've never met anyone who has been an addict (I'm going by Doug's defintions) and can go back IME some people are pre desposed to addictive behaviour ....but that just my experiance and there are so many variables

 

[Sepher]

While it is certainly possible, IMO any user who has already proven themselves to be incapable of managing their opiate use to the extent that they have already repeatedly gone through cycles of addiction and detox will be unlikely to be able to chip thereafter. They've failed at it more than once, so why should they be any better at it in future? The underlying causes of that failure, whatever they may be, are likely to remain. This is compounded by the fact that having been addicted the once, tolerance and physical dependance reestablish themselves all the faster, making management all the harder. It sucks, but I think for those recovering from repeated addictions it's all or nothing.

 

[SPC123]

It depends on the person. I took opiates for pain but I would abuse them whenever I had them. My problem is that I am depressed in general an I crave the happiness, however artificial, that opiates provide. When I am not depressed I can use and quit at will. When I am depressed it's not so easy. So I guess the question you have to ask is WHY you miss opiates. If you are taking them for pain, be it physical or emotional (or both) you will likely get hooked if you use again. If you are taking them for fun maybe you can restrict your usage to just weekends. If you just get addicted with no rhyme or reason why, IDK what to tell you. I have never been in that situation.

 

[tannypack101]

Yes if you can learn to enjoy opiates, but you have to enjoy your sober self too. If you don't like state of mind when sober then you want to automatically fix that. At least that's my opinion, and why I have never been addicted to any substance.

 

[Beerman]

Thank you all for the answers and sorry for not saying anything before, I had been on holidays and in a H binge...

Now I'm again in tiny doses of bupe, I want to get clean and try to enjoy opiates only sometimes, maybe once a week or somethink like that, I'll see.

It depends on the person. I took opiates for pain but I would abuse them whenever I had them. My problem is that I am depressed in general an I crave the happiness, however artificial, that opiates provide. When I am not depressed I can use and quit at will. When I am depressed it's not so easy. So I guess the question you have to ask is WHY you miss opiates. If you are taking them for pain, be it physical or emotional (or both) you will likely get hooked if you use again. If you are taking them for fun maybe you can restrict your usage to just weekends. If you just get addicted with no rhyme or reason why, IDK what to tell you. I have never been in that situation.

I started opiates because a huge depression I had -one girl who was only my friend who I really liked for years at the end I "had" her, we started a relationship and bla bla bla, I was in heaven really in love with her, and almost all the money I earned on my job I spent with her in dinners, gifts, going out, etc.. but she left me after 2 months, she broke my heart and I coudn't find any reason to live, then after some time I realised how stupid I was..

Anyway and as I said in the OP I had been able to enjoy them without getting addicted before that depression I had, -i.e. one bag of H (where I used to live is like ~300mg of white/brownish powder of average quality I guess) when I was not addicted last me maybe one moth sometimes more, now when I use it lasts me one day, 2 tops- then when I had that depression I tried with amphetamines but they were making the things even worse, more depression, so I tried with heroin and "voilà", everything seemed ok, I was able to go to work without thinking "why the hell I'm working for?", sleep, "happy" etc. but I still didn't give a shit of my life so I didn't mind to get addicted to it, also I could afford the habit and it was doing its job perfectly, then one day I decided to try to IV it and well, you can imagine all the problems related with being a newbie IVing stuff.

Then, a couple of months after IVing, my depression was more or less "healed" so I decided to detox myself with codeine, and I did. Then not even one month after I get depressed again and as consequence I get addicted again, then I started suboxone manteinance, but still doing H sometimes, now I do H only when I go to my country for holidays but I want to quit subs and to start using opiates as I did before all this shit... so yes, basically this is my story lol.

Well, sorry for the huge -and maybe boring- post and thanks a lot again for all the answers, you guys and all bluelight fucking rock!!

Cheers!

 

[Tosh.Suku]

Yes if you can learn to enjoy opiates, but you have to enjoy your sober self too. If you don't like state of mind when sober then you want to automatically fix that. At least that's my opinion, and why I have never been addicted to any substance.

I'm co-signing this, couldn't put it any better.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Is it possible? Yes and this is precisely what every addict tells themselves right before they relapse into full-blown addiction again. There are a million ways you can rationalize and convince yourself you'll be that 5% or whatever able to sustainably chip but if you went down a bad path and fucked things up as a result in the past because you couldn't recognize your limits and control yourself, what makes that risk worth it?

There are basically 2 types of drug users - those who stop when their use starts to push back and negatively affect their lives and those who let it persist and convince themselves they still have control, or realize they don't and try multiple times to get it under control or stop and struggle with this. If you were in the latter category (which is pretty likely with 5 years of use) then the odds you can just pick it up and walk away that easily are pretty close to zero.

 

[Miss Kirsty]

I have tried and failed dismally...Sooo thats a big NO you cant...thats for me anyways...I dont think an alcoholic can have a drink after he/she has been sober either.. Possibly a few people can...BUT I doubt it!!!

 

[Sepher]

Then, a couple of months after IVing, my depression was more or less "healed" so I decided to detox myself with codeine, and I did. Then not even one month after I get depressed again and as consequence I get addicted again, then I started suboxone manteinance, but still doing H sometimes, now I do H only when I go to my country for holidays but I want to quit subs and to start using opiates as I did before all this shit... so yes, basically this is my story lol.

This is very typical. The one thing about opiates that makes them so attractive to some is that they are very effective at killing negative emotion, but it's only a temporary fix. They kind of put your emotional life into a state of suspended animation, and when you quit real emotions kick back in and it's only then that you realise that all the problems you had before you let Heroin work its magic are still there, and unresolved. There's no way round it unfortunately. You just have to deal with your negative emotions, work through them, and get all rational on their ass. Continuing to use opiates as a mood stabiliser is just prolonging the agony. It's very likely that so long as these issues remain unresolved they will impact on your use in a way that makes chipping even harder, because you'll crave the relief you get from them as well as the drug itself. Don't do that to yourself

 

[Miss Kirsty]

Opiates lull me into a false sense of security while everything crumbles around me...ANd i stand there oblivous...They feel sooo good at the time that you can stand in the middle of a train wreak (your life) and not notice....
Ohhh why ohhh why do we love the sooo?????

 

[nsauce]

Old thread is old .

 

[Africanus]

This is very typical. The one thing about opiates that makes them so attractive to some is that they are very effective at killing negative emotion, but it's only a temporary fix. They kind of put your emotional life into a state of suspended animation, and when you quit real emotions kick back in and it's only then that you realise that all the problems you had before you let Heroin work its magic are still there, and unresolved. There's no way round it unfortunately. You just have to deal with your negative emotions, work through them, and get all rational on their ass. Continuing to use opiates as a mood stabiliser is just prolonging the agony. It's very likely that so long as these issues remain unresolved they will impact on your use in a way that makes chipping even harder, because you'll crave the relief you get from them as well as the drug itself. Don't do that to yourself

You are correct, but why not treat negative emotions as abberant, and get rid of them.
What possible benefit is there in all the depression and low self esteem from say a breakup, these emotions are useless to us.
I say we need a treatment which reduces, negative only, emotions to a firm of heads up display that tells us " you are sad" or " you are angry" when those states are true, but we remain unaffected by the emotions, such that our judgement remains clear and logical.

Emotions and sensations, physical and mental, are just blunt prods to make animals choose correctly in certain situations.
These are programming shortcuts because animal brains don't have enough processing power to make the calculations for survival directly.

We human animals have enough processing power on hand to run a self aware program, so surely we don't need extremely strong negative emotions to direct our actions.
Keep the automatic reactions, like pulling away from hot objects, these things don't even involve the brain at all, but most suffering is completely unnecessary.

Opiates remove the negative feelings, both physical and mental, and enhance the positive ones.

If it wasn't for the demon of tolerance, I would never stop using heroin.

I think it's a legitimate choice to attempt to control the negative emotions that destroy many people's lives, sure it's not permanent, but NOTHING ever is.

 

[Sepher]

At the risk of an 'old thread is old' telling off and a lock, ^this^ is something I've wanted to come back to since it first went up, but never to my own satisfaction quite managed a decent start on it.

The reason why you don't treat negative emotions as abberant is because, in general, they are not aberrant. They are valid responses to events in our lives that show us what it is to be human. You can medicate them away temporarily, and sometimes that's absolutely necessary. Anti-ds for instance have saved countless lives, preventing those who can't quite deal with the shit in their lives from spiralling down to somewhere terminal, whatever the downsides. I'm one of them. The same is true of Heroin. Eventually though you just have to deal with your emotions as they are, and work through them.

To be human is to feel. It is our ability to feel, and empathise, and understand that we're feeling an emotion and its causes, or imagine an emotion in others that seperates us from animals. It is the price we pay for the human condition. It's the same drive that leads us to take drugs for one: to feel and experience more than is normal, and get outside of ourselves. That's ok. It's when we take drugs so we no longer feel anything that it becomes a problem, for then we're trying to become less than we are. We not only lose the negative, we lose the good. Negative emotions aren't useless, any more than good ones are. Without them we'd not learn, and if we'd never learned we'd still be monkeys.

I stopped using heroin in the end partly because it no longer made me feel good. There was a part of me though that knew it didn't make me feel anything at all. Felt no guilt, felt no empathy with fellow human beings, or family, felt no excitement, felt no love, felt no happiness, felt nothing other than the up and down that revolved around how much I'd managed to score that day. It simplifies life no end, true enough, reducing it to a single purpose, but that is not living. It is existing. You can exist for a long time on heroin, but eventually it gets really fucking old.

 

[rocketqueen]

While it is certainly possible, IMO any user who has already proven themselves to be incapable of managing their opiate use to the extent that they have already repeatedly gone through cycles of addiction and detox will be unlikely to be able to chip thereafter. They've failed at it more than once, so why should they be any better at it in future? The underlying causes of that failure, whatever they may be, are likely to remain. This is compounded by the fact that having been addicted the once, tolerance and physical dependance reestablish themselves all the faster, making management all the harder. It sucks, but I think for those recovering from repeated addictions it's all or nothing.

Yes, failure in the past is a good indicator of the likelihood of failure in the future (where addiction is concerned). If you could use "successfully" would you not have done so already? I have been trying to figure out how to use successfully for a long time. A couple of years ago I realized the drug I was using at the time had destroyed my life. I admitted total defeat, TKO, and laid it down.

I am hopeful that going back to the preaddict state is possible BEHAVIOR WISE. But there have been permanent changes in your brain, the neural pathways have been seared, you have opened Pandora's Box. The knowledge you now have cannot be forgotten. The rush, the taste, the feeling(s). If you do not use for the next twenty years, if they hook your brain up to a scanner and flash pictures of someone using your drug of choice your brain is gonna light up like a Christmas tree. From the mere sight of it.

So, possible? Yes, BUT it is also possible that a plane could crash into my apartment today. Possible, but not likely. I really want to give you an answer you would more like to hear, but that would be a disservice to you (and me). Plus, this is, after all, just my opinion. Well, and the science behind it but no need to get technical.

 

[rocketqueen]

At the risk of an 'old thread is old' telling off and a lock, ^this^ is something I've wanted to come back to since it first went up, but never to my own satisfaction quite managed a decent start on it.

The reason why you don't treat negative emotions as abberant is because, in general, they are not aberrant. They are valid responses to events in our lives that show us what it is to be human. You can medicate them away temporarily, and sometimes that's absolutely necessary. Anti-ds for instance have saved countless lives, preventing those who can't quite deal with the shit in their lives from spiralling down to somewhere terminal, whatever the downsides. I'm one of them. The same is true of Heroin. Eventually though you just have to deal with your emotions as they are, and work through them.

To be human is to feel. It is our ability to feel, and empathise, and understand that we're feeling an emotion and its causes, or imagine an emotion in others that seperates us from animals. It is the price we pay for the human condition. It's the same drive that leads us to take drugs for one: to feel and experience more than is normal, and get outside of ourselves. That's ok. It's when we take drugs so we no longer feel anything that it becomes a problem, for then we're trying to become less than we are. We not only lose the negative, we lose the good. Negative emotions aren't useless, any more than good ones are. Without them we'd not learn, and if we'd never learned we'd still be monkeys.

I stopped using heroin in the end partly because it no longer made me feel good. There was a part of me though that knew it didn't make me feel anything at all. Felt no guilt, felt no empathy with fellow human beings, or family, felt no excitement, felt no love, felt no happiness, felt nothing other than the up and down that revolved around how much I'd managed to score that day. It simplifies life no end, true enough, reducing it to a single purpose, but that is not living. It is existing. You can exist for a long time on heroin, but eventually it gets really fucking old.

I apologize for the double post, but I do not think I can insert another quote in an edit. And I do not want to risk screwing up my original post. If someone would advise me that it wouldn't, cool, no double posts. Yes, it is an old thread but I guarantee you someone out there is struggling with this very issue.

@Sepher, I find your posts on this thread to be well written and wise. True, if we did not experience negative emotions, how would we know when we were happy?

@Africanus, I am puzzled by your statement that "automatic reactions...don't even involve the brain at all." Um, what??? When you touch a hot plate, how do you think you know to yank your hand away?

And your statement about (non human)animals...wow. You state, " These are programming shortcuts because animal brains don't have enough processing power to make the calculations for survival directly." Curious as to what you base that on. Yes, human brains and animal brains differ in that we have a more developed sense of self-awareness. But to assume that animals do not have the "processing power" of the human brain based on a lesser amount of self-awareness does not make any sense to me. Animals are not living beings on auto-pilot. A cheetah makes many split second calculations while running after a Tommy at 60 mph which are all directly related to his/her survival. Many of the big cats stalk. This activity, for it to be successful, takes many calculations, many split second.

"Emotions and sensations" are not "programming shortcuts," nor are they used by the animal brain to "make animals choose correctly." There is still much debate on the idea that animals even HAVE "emotions" in the way that we do. If you mean the ability to use selective attention without giving it too much thought, we ALL have that ability, human and animal alike. Some of the animals on this planet are ancient beings, like the croc, and not for nothing have they survived. It isn't luck.

I found your post confusing and if I am misinterpreting anything please do clarify!