Can an ego dissolving dose be a bad trip?

[IamMe90]

How do you know you've lost your "sense of self" rather than just experiencing your "sense of self" being affected by psychedelic drugs? Can you really make detailed, accurate judgements about your "self" when you're stoned out of your gourd?

Yeah, I've happened to get into vigorous classroom debates while on high dose DOC and I've also written A graded philosopher papers in seminar classes at my university while on 2c-e. So, I'm sorry that your mind seems to be so "stoned out" on psychedelics but the fact of that matter is that some of are able to make enhanced insights and truly creative trains of thought on psychedelics.

Not to mention all of the brilliant and coherent music composed and recorded whilst under the influence of psychedelic music - do you think Hendrix or Lennon could write all of the melodically fluid music they did if they were "stoned out of their gourds?" I can't believe you're willing to denigrate some of your favorite musicians in furtherance of a stubborn and poorly formulated argument.

 

[Ismene]

but the fact of that matter is that some of are able to make enhanced insights and truly creative trains of thought on psychedelics.

Whoa. Back up a minute son. This is typical of the brain-dead quality of your "arguments". Making truly creative trains of thought does not automatically mean you've had an "ego-death".

do you think Hendrix or Lennon could write all of the melodically fluid music they did if they were "stoned out of their gourds?"

Well, they typically used the experience to influence their songwriting rather than writing songs at the peak of an LSD trip but that's a completely different argument. Trying to somehow link your concept of "ego-death" to songwriting just shows how desperate and reaching you are.

 

[Ismene]

Your base reasoning that generates your arguments is flawed Ismene.
It is tangential, contradictory, self-aggrandizing, and often seemingly taken from books written by psychedelic figures.

Back up a minute. All the books by psychedelic figures from the 60's expressly DO talk about ego-death. I've said the whole "ego-death" theory was something Leary cooked up to reach out to the establishment. So instead of saying "I was so stoned last night..." he could say "I was experiencing loss of ego last night..." You see how it makes the experience sound respectable to a layman? That was the thinking behind it.

Note McKenna specifically, a Berkley mathematician who ended up believing in cosmic elves

I'm not even sure who you're arguing with now. Have you got your threads confused?

 

[huolesoh]

yes powerful trips that destroy your sense of self and reality can go terribly wrong. if you dose too high there's no turning back, and you can be in for a real rough ride. you're beginning to feel real bad, like poisoned bad, and then the concept of time just evaporates and things just spiral out of control. this is especially true with a 'darker' psych like mushrooms.

but on the flip side; if you prepare yourself, be extra careful when and where and how you're feeling when you trip, things can turn out wonderfully!

Hofmann's first trip he thought he was poisoned and experienced his own death; but for that same reason when it wore off he was highly appreciative of his life. he stepped out into his garden reborn

 

[eLeSaH]

You don't need high dosages.
Like for me 15-20mg 4-ho-met and a dosage of jwh-250 is enough for a clear experience. The rest is all your own psychology. It has much to do with death and you need to lose the fear of death to get "special" experiences If it happens you will know and understand. I'd say write something down before you go to sleep as you(me) will forget the content details. But you still know what happend vaguely.

Ah yeah AND after that weed also got more trippy and meditation and all this stuff is way easier as you know "the route".

 

[hiphophippy]

I see.

How can brain scans verify the existance of an ego

Because they give you a scientific insight into how the brain actually functions. So you arn't reliant on 100 year old bullshit theories based on no evidence whatsoever. You feel me?

The ego is nothing more than a figment of Freuds imagination. It has no basis in reality.

If this were true we would know everything about the brains of man. Brain scans do jack shit but show how electricity moves from one nerve cluster to another during thought.

 

[hiphophippy]

Whoa. Back up a minute son. This is typical of the brain-dead quality of your "arguments". Making truly creative trains of thought does not automatically mean you've had an "ego-death".

do you think Hendrix or Lennon could write all of the melodically fluid music they did if they were "stoned out of their gourds?"

Well, they typically used the experience to influence their songwriting rather than writing songs at the peak of an LSD trip but that's a completely different argument. Trying to somehow link your concept of "ego-death" to songwriting just shows how desperate and reaching you are.

I become a much better musician for a while after doing a psych. It helps me un bar my mind from my worries of artistic inadequacy without impairing my motor functions

 

[IamMe90]

Whoa. Back up a minute son. This is typical of the brain-dead quality of your "arguments". Making truly creative trains of thought does not automatically mean you've had an "ego-death".

do you think Hendrix or Lennon could write all of the melodically fluid music they did if they were "stoned out of their gourds?"

Well, they typically used the experience to influence their songwriting rather than writing songs at the peak of an LSD trip but that's a completely different argument. Trying to somehow link your concept of "ego-death" to songwriting just shows how desperate and reaching you are.

I never said that "creative insights" are somehow equivalent to ego death experiences, you buffoon. You claimed that one would be to "stoned out of their gourd" to differentiate between an ego death and experiencing the sense of self differently, I gave you several examples where myself and others have not been "stoned out of our gourds" on psychedelics.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

If you would notice, I specifically state that the term ego-loss, while describing a specific state of consciousness, is only a term, and that the state itself has origins in many other practices. Leary's coining that specific name has nothing to do with the actual experience.
Further, it should be evident that I absolutely disagree with most works of the prominent psychedelic figures that were involved with anything parachemical.

Oh, and my example regarding McKenna was used to illustrate my point regarding the effects of irrational thought process while on psychedelics,the impressionability of the mind on these compounds, the subsequent irrational thought generated in daily life, and the effects this deluded thought on the image of psychedelics in the popular psyche.

 

[Ismene]

If you would notice, I specifically state that the term ego-loss, while describing a specific state of consciousness, is only a term, and that the state itself has origins in many other practices.

I've never heard of "ego-loss" in anything other than psychedelics. Can you name another practise that describes it? That halfwit IamMe90 tried to claim it was the same thing as "transcendence" but that got demolished pretty quickly.

Further, it should be evident that I absolutely disagree with most works of the prominent psychedelic figures that were involved with anything parachemical.

I don't think you need to disagree with them just because they're "prominent psychedelic figures" tho. Some of the things Leary and Mckenna said are true.

 

[Aporia]

I keep seeing over and over again someone (wrongfully I think) trying to equating being high on a psychedelic substance to ego-loss and then trying to argue against that link. What I understood about "ego-death" or whatever you want to call it, is that is doesn't happen EVERY TIME one ingests a psychedelic substance, but it's a very powerful experience that happens OCCASIONALLY to someone, be it on a substance, in a near-death experience or possibly within a religious pratice. It is an experience different people across different cultures, with different events preceeding it have encountered that has similarities to it but doesn't happen EVERY TIME in any situation. To think that that experience happened every time someone did A, B, C or D would be absurd because nothing has been found to produce a repeatable experience like that. Maybe one could try and achieve it by working towards it, but what does that really mean? If you were ready for it (like worked toward it) then is it REALLY "ego-death"? Wouldn't those more intense experiences be likened to spontenaity and rareity? I could very definitely be wrong, but it's just my two cents

Happy deconstructing ya'll

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

I've never heard of "ego-loss" in anything other than psychedelics. Can you name another practise that describes it? That halfwit IamMe90 tried to claim it was the same thing as "transcendence" but that got demolished pretty quickly.

Further, it should be evident that I absolutely disagree with most works of the prominent psychedelic figures that were involved with anything parachemical.

I don't think you need to disagree with them just because they're "prominent psychedelic figures" tho. Some of the things Leary and Mckenna said are true.

Are you serious? The term ego-loss generally only shows up with psychedelics, but the experience itself is transcendent (not Transcendence, I agree).
It is a natural human experience; ego-softening/loss has been described in Catholicism by those like St. Francis of Asisi (and other naturalists) as being one with nature, in Buddhism it is the doctrine of respect for life and the holiness of everything, in Hinduism it is the natural order, and in current psychology it is practiced in cognitive science.

And why would the fact that they're prominent have any bearing on the subjects of their teachings?? That idea is ridiculous.
(Although, I do wish fame and recognition were based on legitimacy rather than the masses' whim and fancy.)

In fact, tell me something of either of those figures' original ideas that is true.



And Aporia, the method used has nothing to do with the state itself.
Ego-death cannot be achieved while living.

 

[dubdubbawobwob]

Or are you just high on a psychedelic drug?

I think people started talking about "ego-death" or "reaching satori" back in the 60's when trippers realised if they started a conversation with "Last night I was high on a psychedelic drug man.." people thought they were fucking idiots. So they realised what you had to do to overcome prejudice was try and link it to something that normal people will understand - so you said "Last night I had an ego-death man.." or "last night I reached buddha-hood".

I love your historical reasoning behind why things are the way you say they are. Can I get a source to back up this claim? Thank you

 

[dubdubbawobwob]

Back up a minute. All the books by psychedelic figures from the 60's expressly DO talk about ego-death. I've said the whole "ego-death" theory was something Leary cooked up to reach out to the establishment. So instead of saying "I was so stoned last night..." he could say "I was experiencing loss of ego last night..." You see how it makes the experience sound respectable to a layman? That was the thinking behind it.

Note McKenna specifically, a Berkley mathematician who ended up believing in cosmic elves

I'm not even sure who you're arguing with now. Have you got your threads confused?

Yes you've said it was something cooked up by Leary but does that make it a fact in the REAL world? (not the Ismene world that seems to lack fundamental logic) Where do you get your information?

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

good thing you guys only have computers (and loved ones, lol, jk) to take your aggresions out on regarding this mess...lol, i'm sure this would've come to a few bar fights by now were you all in person.

might we all take the figurative 'deep breath', please. i dig the debating spirit, but let's not get overly aggressive, you guys are gettin a bit out of control imo. nothing needs to be taken personally, or made personal (ie derogative responses)

 

[Flickering]

Please stop calling Ismene a troll, he has strong opinions clearly in opposition to a lot of people here, but he's not posing them just to annoy you.

If I can interject and hopefully simplify things, I think if you define the ego as your sense of self (to the best of my understanding, that's what it is) and all the beliefs involved in that self-image, then ego death is indeed possible. All that has to happen is that the drug temporarily destroys either your attachment to that self-image, or it confuses the hell out of you so can no longer maintain any sort of self-image. I don't see why meditation, or moments of extreme trauma, wouldn't be enough to induce a similar effect. I am dubious to the claim of enlightened masters who are permanently without ego, but it doesn't seem such a far cry to assume it's possible to briefly experience such a state.

After all, babies, animals, insects etc. don't have any self-image; they just are. Whoa man. Deep.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

haha...thanks for aiding me in diffusing this bomb.

and i can agree with your simplification

 

[Ismene]

Yes you've said it was something cooked up by Leary but does that make it a fact in the REAL world? (not the Ismene world that seems to lack fundamental logic) Where do you get your information?

The two biographies of Leary that went into this in great detail. Where do you get your information? (I'm guessing you won't be able to answer that)

God I'm tired of seeing things like this on EVERY thread he posts in.

Oh dear. Not another little kid who'se going to follow me around the threads because I wouldn't agree with him. This is because I said "ayahuasca" doesn't just mean the vine in the other thread isn't it. Did it upset you that much? I always wonder these plants "teach" you when you have such a childish outlook on the world.

Relax. State your opinion and I'll state mine. There's no need to take this so personally.

 

[Ismene]

Please stop calling Ismene a troll, he has strong opinions clearly in opposition to a lot of people here, but he's not posing them just to annoy you.

I think the problem is they take disagreeing about drugs as personal attacks.

 

[Apollo Matta]

It can if your not ready for it,
what can you do to get ready,
well first, find out what an ego is,
the "self", "self-concept", "false self", "conceptual identity", or identification with individual existence
i find it interesting that this definition includes false self,
because our true self is ego loss,
where we become one again, not one of many.
ego loss can be scary and there is no way around that,
in that moment you can:
forget you took a drug,
truly believe that what is happening is permanent,
feel great seeping torment for what seems like an eternity,

you have to navigate yourself away from negative thought loops,
set and setting and loving people is a must for a first time,
familiarity is also good, i wouldn't go outside your first trip at ego dose levels,
it gets intense,

think of it this way, in order to understand ego loss,
think of yourself without yourself,
and its not empty.
and whats there is so complex,
so out of this world weird that your first reaction is fear,
but it is actually quite cleansing once used to it.