Can an ego dissolving dose be a bad trip?

[Mongrel]

Where do you hear of "ego-loss" in anything other than psychedelic drugs?

It's a recognized concept in relation to Schizophrenia.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

I can't help it.. Ego-Loss describes dissociation and the perceived assimilation of Self into Existence.
These are experiences regardless of semantics.

 

[RobotRipping]

Says who? Where do you hear of "ego-loss" in anything other than psychedelic drugs? Don't say "Buddhism".

I've heard of ego-loss from near death experiences, meditation, trauma and mystical experiences. From personal experience, i've had it during psychosis as well. And Buddhism, transcendence of self = ego-loss.

Despite numerous arguments directly refuting your claims

Can you give me one of these arguments?

Your claim:

there's no such thing as the ego, it was a theory of Freuds from 100 years ago that was discredited when brain scanning came in.

The ego is nothing more than a figment of Freuds imagination. It has no basis in reality.

ego is not a limited to being a Freudian term. The ego does exist as a concept outside of Freud. Ego being the self, sensing self, perceiving self, sense of self, whatever. Brain scanning also did not disprove the existence of the ego, this was mentioned by another poster.

Further, Leary doesn't necessarily have anything to do with 'ego-loss'. By definition of ego, we can say ego-loss is the loss of the sense of self, perceiving self, that thing we call 'I', or the things that make us individuals.

To me, "Last night I was high on a psychedelic drug" is perfectly acceptable. All the stuff about "feeling at one with everything" or "not being as aware of your thought processes as you normally are" can all be perfectly explained by the phrase "I was stoned out of my fucking head on psychedelics".

we aren't talking about 'feeling at one with everything'. The majority of your arguments do not apply to anything we are talking about, this is pure sophistry. 'i was stoned out of my fucking head on psychedelics' is not an explanation for ego loss, it's not that you were just super high and were grabbing at straws to describe your experience and decided to go with ego death because people would take you seriously. That is your argument right?

-->

I think people started talking about "ego-death" or "reaching satori" back in the 60's when trippers realised if they started a conversation with "Last night I was high on a psychedelic drug man.." people thought they were fucking idiots. So they realised what you had to do to overcome prejudice was try and link it to something that normal people will understand - so you said "Last night I had an ego-death man.." or "last night I reached buddha-hood".

The John Lennon quote was impressive in itself, it was entirely ironic

No it wasn't ironic. He was speaking to a deluded guy who was trying to make bizzarre connections between reality and his imagination. I'm trying to do the same to you.

I figured the quote was ironic because you were fucking with us and making your own bizarre connections between reality and your imagination. For example the idea that people used the term ego-death/loss so that they could overcome prejudice when describing their trips. At the same time you were disputing the legitimate connections people were making, such as that of ego-loss and transcendence. Or high-dose psychedelics and experiencing ego-loss

You also firmly grasped on to the idea that Freud was necessarily connected to the concept of the ego. I find it even funnier that you 'were trying to do the same to me', as though I am the deluded person making connections and you are John Lennon bringing your psychedelic wisdom and trying to enlighten me with it. If there were an audience watching this thread unfold as though it were a play, they would be laughing at this as they know you are fucking with us, but we are just slowly figuring it out.

edit: forget everything i've said, have you experienced ego-loss as defined in this thread? If not i'm going to hold you down and blow 5-meo-dmt smoke into your mouth until you concede.

 

[Mongrel]

I can't help it.. Ego-Loss describes dissociation and the perceived assimilation of Self into Existence.
These are experiences regardless of semantics.

I agree.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Yes, and what's worse is that I've realized the trolling for a while, and I can't stop getting sucked in!! It's like gravity, this inanity.

 

[IamMe90]

can you address just one of the points i made to your last post? Start with your claim that "buddhism" talks about "ego-death" just like psychedelic drugs.

Then address the others.

how about you address the simple claim i made, the first claim, that the freudian ego is not the same as the psychedelic ego

not

the

same

read the cited definition i posted

you. Are. A. Troll. Period.

 

[IamMe90]

What I don't understand is that after seemingly complete consensus at all times, Ismene has been allowed to post over 8,600 times. Everyone but the moderators seem to realize that he's a giant fucking troll who contributes nothing positive to this board and only serves to antagonize everyone.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Is he always like this??

God, trolling is ridiculous ha.
I don't understand how acting ignorant is funny.
It's a sad state the current normal psyche is in..

 

[Ismene]

I've heard of ego-loss from near death experiences, meditation, trauma and mystical experiences. From personal experience, i've had it during psychosis as well.

So this "ego-loss" is exactly the same whether you're on 500 mics of acid or having a psychotic breakdown or meditating or in trauma is it? Pretty flexible thing this "ego-loss" by the sound of it. You seem to be defining it to mean anything you want it to mean. I've read an awful lot about near-death experiences and I've never read ONE person say they had "ego-loss".

Very few buddhists would agree with your claim that buddhist transcendence of self is the same thing as tripping on acid. Certainly no traditional Buddhist master would. I've read no end of them say "It's not the same thing". If you don't believe me read the book "Zig zag zen: Buddhism and psychedelics".

That long list you came up with is nonsense - no-one has experienced "ego-loss" from trauma or near-death experiences or psychotic breakdowns other than you. They may have experienced strange mental effects but you grouping them all together and calling it "ego-loss" is meaningless.


sense of self

Right. I agreed 3 pages ago that human beings have a sense of self.

Brain scanning also did not disprove the existence of the ego

But it demolished all Freuds theories. The ego, the ID etc are nothing but a figment of Freuds imagination. They don't exist in reality. That's not how the brain works. Y'follow?

'i was stoned out of my fucking head on psychedelics' is not an explanation for ego loss

But it's an excellent description for tripping on a psychedelic drug. Which is what most people are doing when they experience this alleged "ego-loss" isn't it? Coincidence?


For example the idea that people used the term ego-death/loss so that they could overcome prejudice when describing their trips.

There's no question about that. Have you read those two recent biographies of Leary? That was the initial idea behind it. Obviously now you've got kids reading about "ego-death" on the internet and thinking "That must be what I had dude".

forget everything i've said

Ok

have you experienced ego-loss as defined in this thread?

This is the problem isn't it - the difference between your idea of "ego-loss" and reality. Have I experienced the same thing as someone suffering a psychotic breakdown, having a near-death experience, or in severe trauma on psychedelics? No. I havn't. I have suffered trauma on a couple of occasions and no, it wasn't anything like tripping on acid.

Have I experienced all the effects psychedelic drugs have? Yes. I take 15 dried grams of mushrooms with 300mg of moclobemide on a regular basis. There's pretty much nothing I don't know about the effects of high doses of psychedelic drugs.

 

[IamMe90]

If all you know about psychedelic drugs is that you've "gotten high on psychedelic drugs," then I'd say there's quite a bit you don't know about psychedelic drugs... y'follow?

Nope

 

[RobotRipping]

^^ never said transcendence of self is like tripping on acid :D

also never said ego-loss is the same on 500mcg of LSD as in a traumatic/psychotic episode or any other experience. My definition of ego-loss is not flexible whatsoever, it can happen under any state, but tripping on 500mcg is not necessarily going to cause it.

Again, no one cares about Freud.

I'm not comparing traumatic experiences with tripping either. This is all garbage, following your usual line of reasoning. I've plead my case and anyone with a bit of sense can tell what you are doing.

Nevertheless I shake my fist at you.

 

[DwayneHoover]

^ 15g dried shrooms plus MAOI, and "on a regular basis," Ismene??? Oh come on... why?

I call ducksizing.

 

[Ismene]

If all you know about psychedelic drugs is that you've "gotten high on psychedelic drugs," then I'd say there's quite a bit you don't know about psychedelic drugs... y'follow?

Nope

I was speaking in the Freudian sense

 

[Ismene]

^^ never said transcendence of self is like tripping on acid :D

also never said ego-loss is the same on 500mcg of LSD as in a traumatic/psychotic episode or any other experience. My definition of ego-loss is not flexible whatsoever, it can happen under any state

Yeah I know - you gave that long list ending in "trauma" whatever that was referring to. You're the only one who would call those all "ego-loss" experiences tho.

I'm not comparing traumatic experiences with tripping either.

So why did you say you can experience "ego-loss" like you do on psychedelics when you're having a near-death experience or "trauma"?

 

[Ismene]

^ 15g dried shrooms plus MAOI, and "on a regular basis," Ismene??? Oh come on... why?

It's just the dose I'm comfortable at Dwayne. It's the only way I can achieve ego-death

I call ducksizing.

Oh yes, I have a very big duck.

 

[RobotRipping]

Yeah I know - you gave that long list ending in "trauma" whatever that was referring to. You're the only one who would call those all "ego-loss" experiences tho.

I'm not comparing traumatic experiences with tripping either.

So why did you say you can experience "ego-loss" like you do on psychedelics when you're having a near-death experience or "trauma"?

They aren't ego loss experiences. One can (not necessarily) lose their sense of self in such a state. That is all that I mean. Also, tripping does not necessarily entail ego-loss, neither do any of the experiences. blah.

I personally prefer 15.1 grams of dried shrooms with an MAOI, anything less and i can't feel the effects. At 15.1 though, i become one with everything, it feels exactly like I am dying and i become transcendent like God. I hope that you take this seriously because i'm pretty sure i had ego-death. It's almost as if my superego was destroyed, which took out my ego and left me with the id, obviously elevating me to a pure state that even Buddhist monks would envy.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

ah, the battle continues :D

really though, the question of 'is an acid trip like a traumatic experience or a meditative transcendence exp?' is too complex of a question with far too many variables to logically deduce. Even if the 'ego death' aspect of those experiences (not to say that this is present, but if it is...) is exactly the same, the overall experience of having an acid trip is going to be far from being in a car crash or another traumatic exp...lol, if it was Exactly the same in All Ways, i don't think acid would be very popular.

i have meditated daily for 6 years, and have had countless(well really a large finite number) experiences of consciousness alteration without the use of drugs. I have had what one would call 'ego loss' without drugs, as well as i've had visionary experiences through shamanic trance which can compete with the intensity of a breakthrough psychedelic experience.

the difference..???? well, for me, during a zen trance, i will sometimes have a moment of 'absolute transcendence' wherein i lose all sense of self, experience no thoughts, no reactions to perception etc. Now, if i were to isolate this moment, and put it next to a psychedelic exp of 'ego loss', one could possibly confuse the two...mandalic imagery, feeling of 'openness' in the body(or loss of the sense of having a body), feeling the 'power' of reality etc. HOWEVER, with meditations, i can break the trance and within an hour or so my consciousness is generally baseline. Psychedelics on the other hand...lol, you get dragged along for the whole ride. the counter-balance though, is that with meditative transcendence, the 'self' can take more insight back into it's egoified mind with it. it takes a lot more practice to be able to 'retain' all the insights of a psychedelic experience, even if you remember your trip, some of the furthest corners of consciousness which get traveled into are often forgotten because of an inability for the conscious self to rationalize it. With meditation, by the time you learn to get to those corners, you will likely bring the gems back with you.

so i think you guys are beating a dead horse.

 

[Ismene]

It's almost as if my superego was destroyed, which took out my ego and left me with the id, obviously elevating me to a pure state that even Buddhist monks would envy.

I remember someone mentioning this state and saying that they had completely lost all knowledge of self. I asked them if a tramp walked in the room and began anal intercourse with them - balls deep - would they notice? And they said they probably wouldn't.

Were you at this level of satori do you think?

 

[Ismene]

the 'self' can take more insight back into it's egoified mind with it.

How do you know you've lost your "sense of self" rather than just experiencing your "sense of self" being affected by psychedelic drugs? Can you really make detailed, accurate judgements about your "self" when you're stoned out of your gourd?

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Ismene, how fucked up do you get on psychedelics??
Because I am not stoned out of my gourd on many psychedelic drugs.
I mean, psylocibin can make me a bit goofy, especially with some Peganum Harmala.
Still, I'm not the biggest fan of tryptamines for exactly this reason! Christ, even powerful, great minds can succumb to the deluded and fallacious thought processes common to tryptamine psychedelic experiences.

I mostly use phenethylamines, and I have taken these substances in settings that could get you in serious trouble if you were to act like a drugged-up fool.
However, I am perfectly functional, performing very well at work and even in my medical classes.
In fact, just last night in class I was on 2C-P, and when my teacher in class presented a discussion, we carried on for the majority of class!

Your base reasoning that generates your arguments is flawed Ismene.
It is tangential, contradictory, self-aggrandizing, and often seemingly taken from books written by psychedelic figures.
I'm serious when I tell you that the "academic" wave of research on psychedelics back in the 60s was errant pseudo-empirical nonsense, and it has directly led to the negative view that mainstream culture holds on psychedelics. (Note McKenna specifically, a Berkley mathematician who ended up believing in cosmic elves controlling the fabric of Existence, and that UFOs are projections of psychedelic awareness.)

If you can find me ANY self-evidence for ANY of your claims, I will refute myself immediately.
However, until then, your fallacy ought to be viewed with, at least, great skepticism by anyone reading this.