Calif. mother stabs toddler son up to 20 times

You should apply your moral judgments of others to yourself. Violence won't solve the problem, and as someone posted above, this woman isn't simply a bad person, she's most likely mentally ill and she should get treatment. That or she was on (or coming down from, in my experience that's when the bad craziness starts to really kick in) pcp or something.

I don't stab, beat, or maim others for no reason like she did. My morality is to punish this bitch. The punishment fits the crime. The average child molester/pedophile/child abuser spends less time in prison (if at all) than some poor guy that gets caught trying to get some marijuana home for personal use. That's totally fucked up.

Don't worry about me, I am fine, and your moral judgement on me means little if you think some stupid bitch like that woman deserves any better than a severe beating and/or death.

I say, beat her up, lock her in prison with the regular population, they will serve REAL justice because the bitch won't survive for long.
 
The kid's condition was upgraded to stable.

I am glad.

You should apply your moral judgments of others to yourself. Violence won't solve the problem, and as someone posted above, this woman isn't simply a bad person, she's most likely mentally ill and she should get treatment. That or she was on (or coming down from, in my experience that's when the bad craziness starts to really kick in) pcp or something.

This argument is bullshit. I am sorry to say it, but your argument has a philosophical inconsistency.

Is defending yourself from attack 'the same as' just walking up and punching somebody to steal their wallet? Really? Is attacking someone because they just rapped your daughter 'the same as' attacking somebody to rape them? I seriously hope you dont believe that, that any and all violence is absolutely equal and that motive or even self defense is not a modifier.

Does killing the mother do any 'good'? Well, maybe. Changing people isnt as easy as you might think. If its just a chemical imbalance we can treat that with a pill. People under too much stress might flip out and have a psychotic episode....but the kind of person who will just randomly try to murder their own infant son with a steak knife is never going to be sitting around eating tea and crumpets with the rest of us again, not just with a antidepressant and a few years of therapy. Its not going to happen.

If she is too crazy for prison she will be put in a straight jacket instead....which is my worst nightmare as I am highly claustrophobic.



Does killing her solve anything? Does killing a lion escaped from the zoo and attacking people solve anything? Yeah, the lion is a bautifull creature and everyone is sacred right? It wont bring back the people it has already eaten, but its still a threat.



These are two articles I think you should read on the subject of violence and non-violence.

http://ranprieur.com/essays/viunrav.html

http://ranprieur.com/essays/vipac.html



Human nature is somewhat Hobbesian. I agree that protection of society 'should' be a bigger priority than vengeance. However, you have to understand that human emotion is not rational. We have an instinct to protect our little ones, and violence is how all mammals have protected their children from predators for millions of years. Its hardwired into our biology.

Yes, you could also solve the problem by putting her in solitary confinement.....I would rather just be dead. If I was facing that kind of sentence I would go down fighting instead.
 
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sentience has it right...funny that psychomimetic has no response because his/her argument is full of holes.
 
So, therapture, would you gain personal enjoyment from punishing this woman violently, or do you simply believe that it's the right thing to be done and you don't care how it happens? Just curious. I can't quite tell from your posts.
 
Can you separate what you would want to do to this person from what you feel should be done to this person? Meaning, are your statements based on your anger at her actions, or on an assessment of her 'worth(lessness)'? I think that is where a key to some of these comments lies.

Myself? I have my own opinion on what to do with people who are not salvageable for society, and my own criteria to which I judge them. But I'm not society's judge - we have a legal system for that. It is a good thing that I, or any individual, are not sole (soul?) judge in these types of matters - it's too easy to bend to personal beliefs and perspective, rather than keeping the bigger picture in mind and how the society overall views and deals with it's members.
 
So, therapture, would you gain personal enjoyment from punishing this woman violently, or do you simply believe that it's the right thing to be done and you don't care how it happens? Just curious. I can't quite tell from your posts.

If I caught her in the act or came upon it...my anger would make me beat the shit out of her. Chances are even a couple hours later if I came upon here, knowing what she had done, I would beat the shit out of her. It would make ME feel better, alot better. The RIGHT thing to do after that would be to convict her of attempted murder, get her dumb ass into prison WITH the regular population and things would sort themselves out.
Instead, the dumb bitch will get convicted (maybe) and/or have a mental evaluation done that shows her to be "insane", get locked up somewhere for a few years, protected from violence of course by other inmates, and released sooner than the poor guy caught with an ounce of weed that hurt nobody.


If someone did that to my child...and I caught them, most likely, they would die at my hands and no police or ambulance could save them.

Does that make my feelings more clear?
 
I love how some people's first response is "we should kill her". Clearly this woman is extremely mentally unstable. While killing her would certainly stop her from hurting anyone again, it's fucking wrong.

I would like to think that as a race we could understand how fucked up this woman's mental state must be in order for her to be capable of doing this. Perhaps we should try to make her sane rather than just murdering her, or if she is beyond help(unlikely) in this regard keep her locked up.

I'm also not suggesting that she just get off in the event that she could be rehabilitated, she should serve the time anyone else would in this situation.
 
"Darkness cannot be dissipated with more darkness. More darkness will make darkness thicker. Only light can dissipate darkness. Violence and hatred cannot be removed with violence and hatred." - Thich Nhat Hanh

I feel sorry for the child, of course, but I also feel sorry for the woman.
I can't begin to imagine what a fucked-up situation her life must be for her to do such a thing.
Someone with any feeling of love could never do it.
Someone with friends, and family, who cared about them even a tiny bit, could never do it.

She must be suffering so greatly that it makes me reel to just contemplate it.
If she is killed, either by vigilantes or by the government, it will only be a release from her incredible pain.

The worst punishment for her would be to go on living in her situation.

What she needs, in my opinion, is love. And psychiatric help.
But only love can begin to heal her wounds, which caused her to do this despicable thing.

Of course, she is a danger to other people, and so she should be locked up until she is no longer a danger. But even people like her can be rehabilitated, I believe. And, in her case, it appears clear that it would take lots of therapy, probably lots of medicine, and certainly lots of love.

Only because she has been deprived of love could she do this.
Only love can make her realize what she is doing wrong, and give her a reason to live in a positive way.

A man called Angulimala was rumored to have robbed and killed almost 1,000 people. He was called "the wearer of finger garland". He was known by this name because from each of his victims “he removed a thumb,” which he wore on a string around his neck. They say he wore a necklace made of 999 human thumbs, and he was searching for his 1000th victim. (Can you imagine how tortured he must have been to have killed so many people?) He was so obsessed with reaching his goal of 1000 that, when he saw his own mother walking, he determined to kill her. Just then, the Buddha walked between them, as the story goes.

He thought "Why should I kill my mother for the sake of one finger when there is someone else? Let her live" He didn't realise that it was also a very serious offence to kill a monk but he could only think of the one finger needed to complete his necklace The Angulimala Sutra says: 'Now Angulimala took his sword and shield and buckled on his bow and quiver and he followed behind the Buddha. Then the Buddha performed such a feat of supernormal power that the bandit Angulimala, going as fast as he could was unable to catch up with the Buddha who was walking at his normal pace' Angulimala was amazed that no matter how fast he was travelling, he was unable to catch up with the Buddha. He called "Stop, monk! Stop, monk" The Buddha replied "I have stopped, Angulimala You should stop too".

Angulimala thought 'these monks are supposed to tell the truth but this monk continues to walk but he tells me he has stopped I must ask him what he means when he says that he has stopped' The Buddha explained to him "Angulimala I have stopped for ever, giving up violence to every living being, but you have no restraint towards things that breathe. That is why I have stopped and you have not " When Angulimala heard these words a great change came over him He felt deeply moved by the wise words of the Buddha He said "I will for sure renounce all evil after hearing this Dharma" He threw his sword and weapons over a cliff and bowed at the Buddha's feet. He asked the Buddha if he could become his disciple as a monk. The Buddha replied "Come Bhikkhu". And that is how he became a monk.


As the story goes, Angulimala soon achieved liberation and dedicated his life to helping his fellow living beings.

A few months later, he was giving a talk about how to free your mind from suffering, when some people recognized him. "He killed my brother!" "He killed my wife!" They ran and gathered a mob and primitive weapons. Even as they killed him, he retained compassion in his heart for them.

The heart of the Buddha, or Jesus, or Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, which holds compassion for all living beings, is what is needed to help the woman in the article. Like Angulimala in the story, she has inflicted horrible cruelty on others, but like him, she could come to her senses and change her life.

If you personally took matters into your own hands and tried to treat violence with violence, no good could possibly come of it.
 
I love how some people's first response is "we should kill her". Clearly this woman is extremely mentally unstable. While killing her would certainly stop her from hurting anyone again, it's fucking wrong.

I would like to think that as a race we could understand how fucked up this woman's mental state must be in order for her to be capable of doing this. Perhaps we should try to make her sane rather than just murdering her, or if she is beyond help(unlikely) in this regard keep her locked up.

I'm also not suggesting that she just get off in the event that she could be rehabilitated, she should serve the time anyone else would in this situation.


This is yet to be determined. I first stated how I would feel in the heat of the moment. Later I said that what 'should' be done with her, and that it would depend on some things......like, do we know if she understood that she was murdering someone? Was she doing it for a selfish reason or did she believe she was freeing his soul from demons or some warped religious idea....in her min altruism...I doubt it, but that is a modifier.

Just because somebody did something that is so far outside of what is morally acceptable to society does NOT mean that she was too insane to understand the implications of her actions. It doesnt mean that her decision wasnt based on cruel self interest or that it was based on an inability to comprehend reality.

If she was just a selfish bitch who decided that enjoying her high was more important than taking care of a crying baby and that murder was an acceptable solution, then I say we kill her.

If she was unable to comprehend her actions, didnt understand that she was ending the life of her son, that this was in fact her son, didnt comprehend the idea of life and death, and if she would otherwise have loved her son and never have wished him ill were she not mentally warped....then she probably needs help....Still, you cant just fix people. You cant just 'help' them into not being a sociopath with no consideration for others who would just assume kill you as look at you. You cant just go in their and fix that because you want to be more humane and progressive, give them some therapy and love and hope they stop murdering small children. It very rarely if ever works like that.

What you are left with, with the exception of true temporary insanity, which I think is only legitimate maybe 1 time out of 10, is needing to remove this person from society one way or the other.
 
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"First of all I think you must be pretty religious and probably think all people have "rights". Well, when one murders another in cold blood (she didn't, but tried to) they LOSE that right to life IMO. She apparently FULLY intended to kill the child since she didn't "accidentally" stab the 3yr old 20x with a fucking knife. Secondly, I didn't say I would kill her, I said I would beat the shit out of her and break a few bones. Why should WE the taxpayers PAY to keep this disgusting piece of trash alive for the rest of her life in protective prison custody?"

I have considered myself an atheist since I was five, although I'm not really sure that's an accurate description of my religious and spiritual views. Mostly I just don't like religious people because they are stupid, and their moral judgments of others is almost always small minded and emotionally driven. If there is a God he is nothing like the people who claim to speak on his behalf and know him, and he does not judge his creations as A. human action is subject to a fair amount of determinism B. God judging his creations would be like an engineer who builds a faulty computer and blames the computer for it's poor construction/performance. At other times I feel that maybe God does resemble the crazy narcissist found in the books describing the god of Abraham, and I quite frankly despise this God with every fiber of my being.

My post was not filled with "religious crap", rather it asked that you and others take a more objective approach. You mistake me for a religious person, rather I am a neuroscientist. Slim Victor's post is a good example of a religious perspective on this issue. You are correct though, I do believe that all life forms have rights. If certain rights are not innately extended to all humans how do you determine who has rights and who determines it?

I believe you have a mistaken notion about what it means to murder in cold blood, as this case is certainly not congruent with the criteria established for murdering in cold blood. It's an adjective dating back to 1595 indicating murder a: done without consideration, compunction, emotion, or clemency <cold–blooded murder> Thus, murdered in cold blood, means that the murderer had no conscience, or emotion as they committed the act. I'm not sure this woman was of sound mind when she attempted this, so she doesn't meet the criteria for without conscious. You also don't throw your child down a flight of stairs after stabbing them 20 times with out emotion.

You may be of the opinion that she looses the right to life, but without logic to fortify your opinion it's just a useless mental impulse. In regards to beating a mentally ill woman, it accomplishes nothing other than demonstrating that your a neanderthal. It doesn't give the victim's family justice. It doesn't assuage the trauma to the child. It doesn't send a message to other would be mentally ill mothers who commit acts like this that you will be brutalized by an ugly stupid redneck so think twice. We the tax payers support this woman because we live in a civilized society where we no longer execute people because it's easier then housing them, and because putting them in a hole and feeding them bread and water is cruel and unusual punishment.

"We weaken all ourselves, our society, our species, by supporting these kinds of actions, actions that result in cold blooded murder.

Stop spewing stupid religious crap and protecting human trash."

You and your kind do a perfectly good job of weakening our society with your unabashed philistinism, and inability to take on other perspectives. I'd like to take your advice and stop protecting human trash. I'd like to start by executing your ignorance and stupidity by finding you and taking you on as a student, but part of me feels it would be a lost cause, while another feels it would be doing you a service you don't deserve.

“Corporal punishment is as humiliating for him who gives it as for him who receives it; it is ineffective besides. Neither shame nor physical pain have any other effect than a hardening one.”

"All punishment is mischief; all punishment in itself is evil."
Jeremy Bentham

"No punishment has ever possessed enough power of deterrence to prevent the commission of crimes. On the contrary, whatever the punishment, once a specific crime has appeared for the first time, its reappearance is more likely than its initial emergence could ever have been."
Hannah Arendt
Hannah Arendt was Martin Heidegger's lover, and an influential political philosopher in her own right. Very brilliant, as well as pretty; she is definitely worth checking out. If she were to make love to the rapture it would be considered an act of bestiality as the gap in IQ between the two is probably the same as that between a normal person and a gibbons monkey. Just thinking of it disturbs me.
 
You have not demonstrated that the woman was unable to understand the implication of her actions.

"mentally unstable" can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Where you do you draw the line between "mentally unstable" and just being an asshole with a bad temper and a lack of regard for others? Is anyone accountable for anything?

To get off the hook, she has to prove that she was not in control of her actions or not in touch with reality enough to understand the implication of her actions....just being 'emotionally erratic', filled with anger in a hyper agitated state, or has suffered emotional trauma of her own......none of that lets her off the hook unless she was not in control of her own actions or if she is too out of touch with reality to understand the implication of her actions...


Now if somebody with a very extreme retardation were to strangle somebody...and not understand the implications of life and death, that person is truly unaccountable for their actions, though they still need to be removed from society. There isnt much you can do to help them, sad as it may be.

If somebody is just a sociopath, somebody who values their high more than the life of their child, somebody who lashes out with violence when they become agitated even against their own infant child.....Being emotionally unstable does not excuse that. If she understood the end result of her actions and made a conscious choice to end her child's life, her emotional anger and agitation is not going to negate her accountability.
 
This is yet to be determined. I first stated how I would feel in the heat of the moment. Later I said that what 'should' be done with her, and that it would depend on some things......like, do we know if she understood that she was murdering someone? Was she doing it for a selfish reason or did she believe she was freeing his soul from demons or some warped religious idea....in her min altruism...I doubt it, but that is a modifier.

Just because somebody did something that is so far outside of what is morally acceptable to society does NOT mean that she was too insane to understand the implications of her actions. It doesnt mean that her decision wasnt based on cruel self interest or that it was based on an inability to comprehend reality.

If she was just a selfish bitch who decided that enjoying her high was more important than taking care of a crying baby and that murder was an acceptable solution, then I say we kill her.

If she was unable to comprehend her actions, didnt understand that she was ending the life of her son, that this was in fact her son, didnt comprehend the idea of life and death, and if she would otherwise have loved her son and never have wished him ill were she not mentally warped....then she probably needs help....Still, you cant just fix people. You cant just 'help' them into not being a sociopath with no consideration for others who would just assume kill you as look at you. You cant just go in their and fix that because you want to be more humane and progressive, give them some therapy and love and hope they stop murdering small children. It very rarely if ever works like that.

What you are left with, with the exception of true temporary insanity, which I think is only legitimate maybe 1 time out of 10, is needing to remove this person from society one way or the other.

If her motive were that she didn't want to take care of her child, it still doesn't exclude organic brain dysfunction. A sane person would have put the child up for adoption, or at the very least disposed of the child in a more discreet fashion.

"Just because somebody did something that is so far outside of what is morally acceptable to society does NOT mean that she was too insane to understand the implications of her actions."

In the case of infanticide it does. We are designed biologically to ensure the survival of our genetics. The very presence of the impulse to kill ones child indicates that something is defective.

"If she was just a selfish bitch who decided that enjoying her high was more important than taking care of a crying baby and that murder was an acceptable solution, then I say we kill her."


As unlikely as that is, your solution is still pointless. In fact it may be further victimizing the victim. The child will have a lot of emotional scarring from this incident. If you kill his mom, he won't be able to sit down and ask her why she did it, ask her if she's sorry, ask her if she loves him. Only thing it accomplishes is satisfying your comic book simple view of justice. Do you know how expensive death penalty cases are? More expensive then life in prison. Did it ever occur to you that a jury might not be willing to sentence her to death.

"Still, you cant just fix people. You cant just 'help' them into not being a sociopath with no consideration for others who would just assume kill you as look at you. You cant just go in their and fix that because you want to be more humane and progressive, give them some therapy and love and hope they stop murdering small children. It very rarely if ever works like that."

A. How the fuck do you know? I'm willing to presume you have absolutely no clinical experience with organic brain disorders of any kind.
B. Yea we do not at the moment have a cure for people with organic limbic system dysfunction(also known as psychopathy, not the same thing as sociopathy which isn't organic), but that doesn't mean we won't in the future.
C. This woman does not sound like she has either of those disorders. She certainly doesn't sound like a sociopath.
D. I could give you examples of mothers who killed their children, were treated, released, and didn't kill again. I actually can't offer counter evidence to this. But lets be honest it isn't really about that for you.

"What you are left with, with the exception of true temporary insanity, which I think is only legitimate maybe 1 time out of 10, is needing to remove this person from society one way or the other."

That's because it's a bullshit definition of insanity, although a woman killing her kid is about the only case I can think of that meets that definition. No one is arguing that she doesn't need to be removed, we just don't think she needs to have the shit kicked out of her by some hill billy before she's removed.
 
You have not demonstrated that the woman was unable to understand the implication of her actions.

"mentally unstable" can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Where you do you draw the line between "mentally unstable" and just being an asshole with a bad temper and a lack of regard for others? Is anyone accountable for anything?

To get off the hook, she has to prove that she was not in control of her actions or not in touch with reality enough to understand the implication of her actions....just being 'emotionally erratic', filled with anger in a hyper agitated state, or has suffered emotional trauma of her own......none of that lets her off the hook unless she was not in control of her own actions or if she is too out of touch with reality to understand the implication of her actions...


Now if somebody with a very extreme retardation were to strangle somebody...and not understand the implications of life and death, that person is truly unaccountable for their actions, though they still need to be removed from society. There isnt much you can do to help them, sad as it may be.

If somebody is just a sociopath, somebody who values their high more than the life of their child, somebody who lashes out with violence when they become agitated even against their own infant child.....Being emotionally unstable does not excuse that. If she understood the end result of her actions and made a conscious choice to end her child's life, her emotional anger and agitation is not going to negate her accountability.

We aren't really discussing this in a legal context, you know that if she goes to court she will be found not guilty by reason of insanity. That is the precedent. I don't really have enough information to establish what your asking, but it's a pretty sound presumption that she is insane. In regards to whether or not people are accountable for their own actions my answer is yes and no. People are held accountable in our society for the consequences of their actions. What degree of accountability lays with the individual is uncertain. I would preffer not to get into an argument about determinism vs free will, at least not with you. I will offer this. With earths first clay they did the last man kneed,
and there the last harvest sowed it's seed,
and on the first morning of creation was wrote,
what on the last dawn of reckoning will read.
 
Slim Victor's post is a good example of a religious perspective on this issue.


Actually, I do not have/believe in any religion, though I cited some religious figures as examples in my post.
Instead, I would consider my post to be from a moral and logical perspective.
Compassion is deep morality.
Punishing someone who is already deeply suffering by giving them more suffering without hope of rehabilitation is unlikely to lead to anything good. Simple logic.
 
what has this article got to do with drugs?

  1. The woman was arrested by the Fresno Police Department.
  2. The Chief of the Fresno PD is Jeff Dyer.
  3. Jeff Dyer's advisory board includes representatives of Fresno's Council members.
  4. Fresno has a Strong Mayor, who has significant power over the City Council.
  5. The mayor that preceded the current mayor was Alan Autry.
  6. Alan Autry starred in the movie House with Ronn Carroll.
  7. Ronn Carroll starred in Friday the 13th with Kevin Bacon.
  8. Kevin Bacon was with in Animal House with John Belushi.
  9. Belushi died of an overdose while speedballing.
 
If her motive were that she didn't want to take care of her child, it still doesn't exclude organic brain dysfunction. A sane person would have put the child up for adoption, or at the very least disposed of the child in a more discreet fashion.

Compromised intelligence and hyper agitation from the drugs doesnt mean this woman
'was coming from the right place' but just got confused and made a mistake. If someone decided to rape somebody because they were horny, and they knew it was wrong and chose to do it anyway, but because of being mentally compromised they did it right on front of a cop....yeah, this person isnt all there, but it doesnt demonstrate that they are unaccountable for their actions by being either not in control or unaware of the implications of her actions....and by implications I dont mean the best way not to get caught, I mean whether she realized she was taking a human life knowing that was wrong.

The general umbrella of 'mental instability' or even compromised intelligence is not enough to determine that somebody was not in control of their actions or that they were unaware of the implications of their actions....and without that criteria, hyper agitation or decreased awareness of the law and neighbors is not enough to make that case.
 
In the case of infanticide it does. We are designed biologically to ensure the survival of our genetics. The very presence of the impulse to kill ones child indicates that something is defective.

We are also hard wired to cooperate and support the survival of our tribe/community. Anyone who murders any member of their community is basically defective then and unaccountable for their actions?

I dont buy this. Yes, some people lack the morality and compassion that others have. They are called sociopaths and yes they do lack something that the rest of us have.....but unless they didnt know what they were doing, were not in control of their actions or didnt understand why their actions were wrong, then they are still fully accountable for their actions, even if they suffer from a condition that prevents emotional bonding or compassion for others.

As unlikely as that is, your solution is still pointless. In fact it may be further victimizing the victim. The child will have a lot of emotional scarring from this incident. If you kill his mom, he won't be able to sit down and ask her why she did it, ask her if she's sorry, ask her if she loves him. Only thing it accomplishes is satisfying your comic book simple view of justice. Do you know how expensive death penalty cases are? More expensive then life in prison. Did it ever occur to you that a jury might not be willing to sentence her to death.

The cost isnt a factor in my decision. I am not a conservative. I am however a father, and despite my preference for egalitarian bottom-up political alternatives, in the event that somebody tried to harm my daughter I think the animal in me would win over any rationalization to remove accountability from my daughters attacker. Anyone who abuses their child is not worth respecting as a human being.


Anyway...Are you 100% positive that the child will sleep better knowing that the woman who tried to kill him is still out there and possibly going to be set free someday? We have not asked the child what he wants, but you are ASSUMING that as an adult he would rather get an answer that he might not like from a woman who tried to kill him, than have the peace of mind knowing that the bad woman who hurt him is no longer a threat.

I mean....you could be right, maybe. But you are still projecting. You dont KNOW that is what the child wants.

I'm willing to presume you have absolutely no clinical experience with organic brain disorders of any kind.

If you took that bet you would lose.


D. I could give you examples of mothers who killed their children, were treated, released, and didn't kill again. I actually can't offer counter evidence to this. But lets be honest it isn't really about that for you.

I didnt say its never possible. I said its not as easy as you might think, and with the means available to us today, generally has a poor success rate...I mean, maybe if we invent something like a Clockwork Orange, we could 'fix' people. That has its own moral implications though....I mean, is it for us to control and alter peoples minds until they are acceptable from our position?



But I just said that there are in fact legitimate cases of temporary insanity, and that is a valid reason to eventually let someone go if they are treated....I think a lot of people try to play on this though even when its flimsy.




You know, you are making a lot of assumptions that might be false. You are assuming that because she murdered her child she must be too mentally compromised to be accountable for her actions....Do you KNOW this to be true based only on the fact that she tried to kill her son with a steak knife with actions that were consistent with rage? Are you 100% sure, beyond any possible doubt, that this woman has an organic brain dysfunction that prevented her from being in control or understanding the effects of her actions on her infant son? Or are you just choosing believe what you want to believe before the evidence is even in?


I would want to know a few things.....was this woman mentally compromised before she got into drugs? Did she have a history of abuse or violence? Was she considered a loving mother before this? What was her IQ? Was she diagnosed as being bipolar? Does she feel any remorse? Is she in shock that she actually harmed her son and feels terrible?.....Dont you want to know these things before making a judgment?

Yes, there are cases where people with organic brain dysfunction may not be accountable for their actions, or entirely accountable for their actions, and a fraction of these people may be successfully treated....we do not yet know that she fits this criteria based only on the fact that she tried to murder her own infant son. Inability to consider the legal consequences does not prove that she was unable to understand the implications of life and death, why killing is wrong, or prove that she was out of touch with reality or that she was not in control of her own actions.....you also have not provided evidence of an organic brain dysfunction that would lead to uncontrollable rage other than 'look, she tried to kill her son, case closed!'. That argument would not convince a jury if not supported better than that.


Unlike you, I want to hear all the evidence first before making a decision.

If this woman was a little emotionally erratic, but otherwise of reasonable intelligence and determined to be in touch with reality without evidence of organic brain dysfunction before she decided that getting high was a bigger priority than taking care of her child....and she spiraled out of control on drugs, refusing help to even attempt to get her life back on track....then I have no sympathy at all.

Part of the reason why I think most drugs should at least be decriminalized if not legalized (make them either a civil infraction or basically permissible if you have only small amounts for personal use) is that I believe we are responsible for our own actions. If I felt that we were not accountable or responsible for our own actions while under the influence, then that would be a strong argument for regulation or even prohibition......even if you were not in favor of prison or mandatory minimum sentencing and saw it as a disease, your position is still consistent with prohibition by removing personal responsibility.



Getting high when you are supposed to be taking care of your children, then flipping out when you are coming down and choosing to kill your child just to get him to shut up is not my idea of somebody who should be waived of all accountability....not if there was no history of an organic mental illness before that time. Even if she was mentally compromised at the time of the murder, there is still the issue of endangering a child by her behavior even before the attempted murder. If I choose to crack open a bottle of jack while I am driving my children to school, maybe I didnt plan on getting drunk and flying off the road with my kids or flying into road rage and ramming the other car and killing my children or theirs.....yes, I was mentally compromised at the time, but I did it to myself in this example. The choice to compromise your brain function when you are responsible for children should be punished if she was reasonably sane up until that point.
 
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We aren't really discussing this in a legal context, you know that if she goes to court she will be found not guilty by reason of insanity. That is the precedent. I don't really have enough information to establish what your asking, but it's a pretty sound presumption that she is insane. In regards to whether or not people are accountable for their own actions my answer is yes and no. People are held accountable in our society for the consequences of their actions. What degree of accountability lays with the individual is uncertain. I would preffer not to get into an argument about determinism vs free will, at least not with you. I will offer this. With earths first clay they did the last man kneed,
and there the last harvest sowed it's seed,
and on the first morning of creation was wrote,
what on the last dawn of reckoning will read.


That is yet to be established. Its possible, but perhaps not likely without a history of organic mental illness.
The jury will see her as a woman who was of reasonably sound mind who spiral out of control on drugs until she finally lost it and attempted to kill her own child....hardly an excuse in most peoples mind.

If you can prove a history of organic brain dysfunction, then MAYBE. Temporary insanity might be a case, but then they could just charge her for the drugs and throw her in prison for even longer.

Isnt that fucked? Somebody with a gram of crack who doesnt hurt anyone will go to prison longer than somebody who tried to kill their own son?



Anyway, other cases where the mother has brutally murdered their own children have not all been dismissed. No, we dont KNOW this case will be thrown out for reasons of inanity. I wont rule it out, but its yet to be determined.
 
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