• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!
  • MDMA Moderators: Esperighanto

Caffeine effects to Serotonin & MDMA response

B

bla-ljus

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
165
Location
Europe
Wow, I came up with a title that sounds so professional :)

Now that I've experienced MDMA couple of times and started to dig deeper in the knowledge vault to know what are the things that effect how I experience the MDMA. Serotonin is mentioned all over the place as that's the main stuff which is responsible for the "I love everyone" feeling.
I came across a mention that caffeine effects serotonin levels too. Googled and found one interesting article, but I'm not sure how to read it. Quote from the article:

Chronic caffeine intake has been shown to increase the receptors of serotonin (26-30% increase), GABA (65% increase), and acetylcholine ( 40-50% ) . This may contribute to the elevated mood and perceived increase in energy we feel after a coffee (which makes espresso a handy pre-workout drink). Despite increasing receptors, caffeine also inhibits the release of GABA, which contributes to our feeling of alertness.

Chronic caffeine intake also increases the sensitivity of serotonin receptors. In other words, receptors specific to serotonin are more responsive to serotonin present in the synaptic cleft — it’s sort of like installing a bigger satellite dish to catch more of an existing signal. One study showed a decrease in serotonin release, but an increase in serotonin reuptake, leading to an overall increase in serotonin levels. (Think of it as the brain’s natural recycling.)
Click to expand...

Could someone translate that to lay-man terms:
If I want maximum feeling from MDMA, should I quit drinking coffee or is drinking coffee good as it gives me "bigger satellite to catch the signals"?

The actual article is linked here: How coffee affects your hormones
 
Well... that article is from a blog, not a journal, and I'd be hesitant about trusting what it says. The author seems to have taken those numbers from this paper, which is on mice consuming A LOT of caffeine, not humans consuming a normal amount.

I wouldn't be surprised if chronic caffeine use did have an effect on serotonin receptors in humans, but it might not be a very significant effect. After a few minutes of searching I can't find anything more substantial to back it.
 
Last edited:
Yeah I've never heard that about caffeine and if that was the case, wouldn't we have problems with serotonin syndrome in heavy caffeine users?
 
It's not relevant to human recreational caffeine usage. In reality, prior caffeine consumption will barely effect the MDMA high. Caffeine during MDMA is different though, it can add to the euphoria and stimulant properties.
 
Caffeine during MDMA will also increase neurotoxicity... There is a study on it somewhere I'll try dig it up.

But I have never heard of caffeine having any effect on the serotonin system.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but a decrease in serotonin release and an increase in re-uptake would actually lower synaptic levels of serotonin. Serotonin is being re-uptaken into the pre-synaptic neuron and less is being released, so there's less serotonin in the synapse to bind to serotonin receptors in the post-synaptic neuron. This part seems contradicting. Also, the specific 5-HT (serotonin) receptor that has an increase in density also matters. There are excitatory and inhibitory receptors of 5-HT each affecting different things. A high density of 5-HT2A receptors is linked with depression for example, so it's not always a good thing.
 
Could you link me any information on 5-HT2A being correlated to depression? That seems odd, typically 5-HT2A is mentioned in context of Glutamate production, antipsychotics and psychadelics.
 
Caffeine and MDMA should be synergistic, but I don't think would have any sort of potentiating or inhibitive response.
AFAIK caffeine has no effect on serotonin receptors
 
I would think that chronic caffeine intake would lower your quality of sleep vs a person who would say...drinks chamomile tea once a day! By lowering your sleep quality, it brings down your overall mood. I'm not saying you'd be all grumpy and depressed, but you wouldn't be in the mood you would be in if you slept 6-8 hrs a night. As a result of that your seratonin would be somewhat lower, than what it could be!
 
So this is interesting. So I was speaking to one of my peers today and before they administer electro shock therapy to patients for depression, they administer a gram of caffiene to the patient to excite receptors. They said its more geared towards dopamine response but I stil thought it was interesting and relevant to this thread.
 
Mazzab said:
So this is interesting. So I was speaking to one of my peers today and before they administer electro shock therapy to patients for depression, they administer a gram of caffiene to the patient to excite receptors. They said its more geared towards dopamine response but I stil thought it was interesting and relevant to this thread.
Click to expand...

I can't imagine caffeine on someone who is depressed let alone 1 whole gram of caffeine... Panic attacks, no?

If they want dopamine realease why don't they just administer 5-10mg d-amphetamine...
 
I believe caffeine is administered in very small dosages with medication to help with absorption, or something similar to that. I can't quite remember. 1g of caffeine is a lot though and at that dosage I'm sure hallucinations are possible.

Here's a fun thought if you want a boost in experience. I wouldn't recommend it nor would I do it myself but take a benzo the night before doing MDMA. During NREM sleep your brain re-sensitizes your monoamine receptors while REM uses your monoamine stores. Benzos and other GABAergic drugs tend to reduce the amount of REM sleep you have, so you'll have more monoamines and re-sensitized receptors available for MDMA. It's just an idea though, a hypothesis at best. Perhaps some GABAergic drugs prevent the re-sensitization of neurons, so I wouldn't try it unless you really know your neuroscience.
 
Last edited:
I do agree 1 g is a lot. And for depressed patient could be a lot but the point I was trying to make was it's administered IMMEDIATELY before the shock therapy. Tbh I'm ortho so I'm not as familiar with this medicine. I was taken back. Like hmm?
 
Zalo said:
I believe caffeine is administered in very small dosages with medication to help with absorption, or something similar to that. I can't quite remember. 1g of caffeine is a lot though and at that dosage I'm sure hallucinations are possible.

Here's a fun thought if you want a boost in experience. I wouldn't recommend it nor would I do it myself but take a benzo the night before doing MDMA. During NREM sleep your brain re-sensitizes your monoamine receptors while REM uses your monoamine stores. Benzos and other GABAergic drugs tend to reduce the amount of REM sleep you have, so you'll have more monoamines and re-sensitized receptors available for MDMA. It's just an idea though, a hypothesis at best. Perhaps some GABAergic drugs prevent the re-sensitization of neurons, so I wouldn't try it unless you really know your neuroscience.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't take 1G of caffeine if you paid me... 200mg is enough to induce anxiety in me, fuck that, especially for a depressed patient where electro shock therapy is their only resort left.

I haven't heard of the idea you just came up with about REM sleep suppression increasing monoamine-sensitivty... Very much doubt that would be true in terms of boosting a roll. Weed supresses REM... I know benzos used for a while might do that for norepiniephrine but I think its just simply a rebound effect of your body being sedated constantly (anxiety - norep...)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top