• Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Stimulants Caffeine addiction?

Coffee tastes / (works) / feels so much better drunken after my body and brain are awake

A couple hours out of bed, or even better early afternoon
Love me some columbian supremo
 
Last edited:
@plumbus-nine Yeah there is no 'legal' smoking in the jail since well before my first arrest way back in 2004. People do get cigarettes and drugs in from time to time though. I've smoked crack in jail, countless cigarettes, had klonopin pills, etc.

I only smoke about two pipe tobacco cigars a day now. Helps with nicotine for me to keep my usage low.
 
@simstim: In Germany (and Switzerland, afaik at least) you can even buy cigarettes from the feds, they re-use confiscated, illegally smuggled or not declared cigarettes by selling them to inmates. It's not without dispute of course as there could be hell knows what in these cigs, synthetic cannabinoids not being the worst. But they don't allow internet or even unsupervised phone calls or letters. The supervision is one thing but denying access to today's medium no 1 is just flat out violation of human rights. At least for an internet addict like myself.

Besides that, jail in Switzerland seems to be pretty 'nice' compared by prison standards. Germany you can get bad or good jails but in general people have the impression that conditions in the states are kinda harsh if you're not among the top 10% of people in there. Is that just a preconception or would you agree? I'm not exactly the strongest physically and was senselessly scared off a possible jail sentence when they repeatedly caught me with drugs, showed up they're pretty relaxed with the sentences of non-violent crime but still Swiss can also be hard. They have the concept of custody, either 'big' one when you e.g. did something very very violent or 'little' one which is essentially a non-limited psych ward sentence. First for five years, then the docs decide whether you succeeded in therapy or need another few years. Of course they are rater safe than sorry and keep people in there. A lawyer, not the worst one out of with whom I dealt so far, told me that if I get caught again they might well examine me psychiatrically and if they found my delicts to be of sickness origin, then custody won't be too far away. Eek, and that when I didn't do anything violent for more than 10 years now, and the early incidents can be explained by strangers acting overly proactive (aggressive, triggering PTSD). If you're in back luck, it's all in the hands of some masochist.

Yeah, keeping the usage low definitely helps with nicotine. With stims, if not drugs in general imho. Even opiates are only really enjoyable when your tolerance is low or you're in serious withdrawal. Dissociatives turn from enjoyable to rollercoaster with increasing dosage. Psychedelics can become overwhelming. Benzos and booze cause violent blackouts. Etc.
 
For some reason, coffee for me is like the crack of caffeine. The only time I've been legitimately addicted to caffeine (as in withdrawals), it's been from lots coffee. As I've gotten older, coffee stimulates the fuck out of me, even a small amount and I get sweaty feet and palms, racing heart, and anxiety. However I can consume all sorts of caffeine pills or energy drinks and be fine, gives me energy, but it's comfortable, and I never get withdrawals at all no matter how much I use. Weirdly, some friends of mine report the opposite: caffeine pills or energy drinks make them overstimulated, and coffee is comfortable.

And I was on an SSRI the entire time and there was no negative reaction. Not sure about benzos but I'm 99% sure nothing bad will happen especially if you have a tolerance. Remember, this is a naturally occurring substance, it's not potentially dangerous like pharmaceutical MAO inhibitors.

Give it a try, it prevented me from feeling miserable and allowed my adenosine receptors to get back to their normal state.

I just wanted to point out that natural does not necessarily mean safer. I think the reason hordenine is safer is because it's, for one, an MAO-B inhibitor (as opposed to MAO-A), and because it's both weak, and a reversible MAOI, which means it just occupies MAO enzymes and does not destroy them. Whereas most pharma MAOIs are irreversible, which means they destroy the enzymes and your body has to make new ones, which meansd if you get into a situation with other substances, it can get out of hand quickly. Syrian rue/B. caapi vine are natural reversible MAO-A inhibitors, which would be more dangerous with stuff like SSRIs and serotonin releasers, though still less dangerous than the pharma ones.

So in this case you're right, the natural MAOIs are safer, but there may be plant-sourced MAOIs that are irreversible, and if there are, they would be just as dangerous. It's not about whether something is produced in nature, it's about the mechanism of action. There are many extremely dangerous natural substances that are much more dangerous than many synthetic substances.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just felt the need to clarify because I often hear people saying "natural is safer" in a broad way about drugs, and it's misleading and often untrue.

I had a paranormal xperience with them monster cans
On early recovery i began craving that shit out of nowhere, never having even finished one can, next thing i know, i needed one 3 times a day, could not go to sleep if i didnt finish one before bed, until one day in the middle of the street i started hearing my heartbeat really loud, it was quite scary and felt even worse, and it was 100% because of the monster, after that i never had one again.
It's not paranormal, i just wanted to use that word.

Wow, you couldn't sleep UNLESS you drank a Monster? That is odd. Paranormal, even ;)
 
During "down time", coffee/caffeine is my only crutch i have to lean on at work, so i've been known to go pretty crazy with the stuff.
Triple, even quad-shot cafe lattes, sometimes up to twice a day at work for weeks on end. I literally developed a twitch in my left eyelid from all the caffeine a few times.

Never even had that happen with certain "illicit substances". 😵
 
I'm one of those who've the bad luck of being overly sensitive to caffeine. When I'm tired, or in usually depressed mornings, I take one cup of instant and it wakes me up or it doesn't. It's a hit or miss. In the occasions of not, I either get nothing at all like from decaffeinated one, or then a jittery mess. Also while I'm not hypertonic, I have quite a bit of tachycardia (resting BPM never below 80, sometimes 90-100) which might be the result of a slight heart attack induced by excessive vasoconstriction while sky high on deschloroketamine. Remember collapsing after redosing in a public bathroom but didn't care (was severly destructive at that time, just lost my first long term gf). I had fast heartbeat before but not so extreme. Yeah, for that I usually take propranolol and with that I tolerate caffeine somewhat better, when not taking it, my BPM would rocket to over 100 just from one cup. Guess my adrenergic glands are pretty much fucked, PTSD stuff. Weirdly did morphine exacerbate the tachycardia.

@simstim: They don't allow smoking cigarettes? That's harsh, even when I have a strong aversion against all these nice carcinogens in tobacco smoke, I like the taste from time to time and the effects (which I also only sometimes get and only when not smoking more than maybe two a day, otherwise it's just an addiction-withdrawal-relief cycle.)

@JackARoe, exactly my thoughts. The main desaster of addiction isn't that itself but the stuff which comes along with, mostly thanks Nixon and his stupid war on drugs, but also an overly conservative society and politics leaders who don't wanna risk to go progressive. In Switzerland some decades ago they had a serious problem with open drug scenes, dying addicts injecting heroin in front of television cameras aren't good for the reputation so they quasi-decriminalized it by opening easily accessible maintenance programs first with methadone, then heroin and eventually retarded morphine. By easily accessible I mean easily so, the only thing besides a brief interview was a positive urine sample, nothing more and I walked home with a week's supply of methadone. Granted, I trialed buprenorphine before with the same clinic so they had me on the radar but given that I got bupe for dissociative addiction, not opioids (they knew fuck about dissos, probably still do and thought DXM was an opioid which needs to be substituted with methadone) it's still kinda remarkable. Not sure if going there was one of the more or less wise decisions of my life, maybe it saved me from jail but got me deeper into addiction than ever before. Still, after 3 years of full agonists, I am surprised by the relative mildness of withdrawal I get - this unfortunately doesn't help against relapsing, more the opposite.

Sorry, kinda walls of text today. Prolintane say thank'd, that one's ten times better than any coffee of this world if you ask me. They should bring back the times of OTC stims, would close a good part of the illicit stim market if things were just available, no more Mexican meth cooks in Amsterdam and there'd still be a majority of people who don't want to do drugs - afaik legal marijuana didn't bring in the flood of addicts and if you ask me, marijuana is one of the (mentally) more dangerous drugs out there. I get full-on panic attack from just two or three hits of an A'damer joint, the range between no effects and too much is very thin, and while it has been disproven that psychedelics should lead to psychosis, there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia. It's just the question what came first, illness/predisposity and drug-induced relief or the drug. They should limit the strength of marijuana, or classify it as mild - medium - strong, so that the noobs choice correctly. My only positive experience with weed was from some low-strength outdoor stuff, and weirdly from one synth, UR-144 if I remember correctly. We took industrial hemp and infused that with UR-144, still don't know but speculated that the contained CBD might have helped. Indeed did a solid dose of CBD drops I happened to have bought the same time stop said A'dam panic attack.

But back to topic - caffeine. Why can't they come up with something better? Is it really just that such a thing would have no chance of ever getting approved for human consumption, that brave Dr. Nutt has been fired for suggesting a better alternative to booze (afaik, correct me if I'm wrong) and that's something society could really only beneficiate from. Also the opposite of caffeine, an adenosine reuptake inhibitor/agonist, might be something interesting to have handy when coming down from stims. That benzodiazepine antidote flumazenil is probably only tolerated because it's an adenosine RI, otherwise it would be an instant ticket to seizures. Seems to even aid with benzo withdrawal, which is remarkable for an antagonist.
You mentioned Prolintane and that got my attention.

BEST stimulant I have ever used IMO BY FAR.

So much better than Dexadrine, Adderall, Coke, caffeine, etc, but i was only able to get it for a short period of time before that vendor stopped selling it.

i don't understand frankly why it isn't the stimulant of choice for doctors over Adderall considering it lasts longer than even extended release Dexadrine or Vyvanse and is IMO far smoother.
 
There was this one doctor or scientist being interviewed on the Joe Rogan podcast a while ago I listened to and he talked about how overlooked coffee is and how different things were before it existed.

It became popular in coffee shops in like the late 1600s (or maybe 1700s, not sure) in Europe, but before that caffeine/coffee was only really ingested as early as around 1200AD by the Turks.

He said before that people just drank beer all day, especially to purify the water, and they kind of used alcohol to keep them going paradoxically.

But then when coffee and tea got big in the 1600s there was a HUGE surge of creativity and artists, writers, poets, etc and a whole culture started revolving around it and then more people started staying up late because they had never really had a reason to before and of course there was no electric light. And also, with caffeine consumption came an improvement with people's health because they started heating water more often as a result which killed off the bacteria that was so present in water in those days without needing to add alcohol so healthier water + more stimulated people kind of lead to an overall healthier all around vibe in society.

Then he talked about the guy who invented "the coffee" break, sometime around the turn of the 20th century and how that changed everything.

He was quoted as saying something like "you know a drug is socially acceptable when they give it to you for free AND PAY YOU TO HAVE TIME OFF TO CONSUME IT" LOL.

It really is true though. The guy who created the coffee break saw this as an opportunity to make people more productive at work and it worked like a charm and continues to work to this day.
 
Very interesting, I never realized or thought about that. :)
 
Do you guys think one will get a benefit out of caffeine for extensible amounts of time or even infinitely? Somehow I doubt there is a net plus in creativity or energy when taking the same amount of caffeine every day, even when you get wakefulness, that what you get over your natural limits isn't particularly enjoyable. But as said, I know of people tolerating shitloads of coffee, and while some of them end up irritable and jittery, other don't.

Doesn't caffeine just antagonize the body's natural exhaustion messenger at cell level? So the British know what they do when drinking tea in the afternoon (don't know whether in mornings too - probably you need two doses or you'll end up tired in mornings). I always thought of why we don't have a mild dopaminergic stimulant in the potency of e.g. modafinil but without that's jitteryness.
 
I'm not sure how it came to be a point of contention but clearly amphetamines are far more addictive than caffeine. Caffeine withdrawal does hurt more physically but if you've been taking a lot of amphetamines daily and stop you are pretty drained. And sort of depressed. But in some ways calm. Same for any other dopaminergic/adrenergic stimulant. I've also experienced withdrawal like syndromes from methylphenidate, MDPV and cocaine, with cocaine being the worse in regard to depression and MDPV being the worst in terms of lethargy. And once had my wallet stolen while I had a 1.5 year long daily 100mg/ephedrine day habit: I had just run out and without showing my ID I couldn't buy more. I was surprised how it knocked the wind out me, felt depressed too. That was a long three weeks waiting for my new ID. Heavy caffeine withdrawal (600mg/day+) definitely hurts more physically (reminds me of kratom withdrawal sort of) but is short lasting. Initially stimulant withdrawal isn't too bad, but it ramps up a bit.
 
@negrogesic: I agree that dopaminergics are more addictive and specially compulsive without it wouldn't be half as addictive imho, also coming down from an adenosine antagonist is a natural condition (high adenosine = need for rest) while low dopamine isn't per se, it more mimicks deprivation maybe, and NE levels might only drop below certain threshold w/o drug when asleep - so or so, I still find to get more out of stims for less than from caffeine, just the question is if that 'some' I get out of them is actually beneficial or not.

With stims maybe the acute rebound is dopaminergic comedown while the withdrawal fatigue is noradrenaline dependent. Strangely enough, pure dopaminergics seem not to feel like anything at all but maybe we just have first to find a pure DRA. Reuptake inhibitors always oppose their own activity via autoreceptors. Still I'd see a synergism of adenosine + dopaminergic stim, maybe causing the brain to less burn out itself like it happens on stim binges (wonder whether cortisol as a marker for stress in the end might be psychotomimetic through kappa (question remained what's the sense behind psychotomimesis but that's a big topic). Smoking salvia made me doubt that though, it's weird and would be anxiogenic if not so distant but nothing at all like either stim psychosis nor acute or chronic stress. Maybe there's just more out there than could be explained by analogues a la under condition x we see y so z which causes y will be mediator of x.

Yeah, amphetamine w/d is easy because one is depressed but calm. It begins to get bad when the restlessness sets in and here might dopamine agonists be the overlooked aid. Also kratom is indeed a coffee relative, forgot how close or far they are but there's some relation and kratom contains adenosine antagonizing receptors so that makes sense, yet I'd never come to the idea to take caffeine to aid with kratom withdrawal. Maybe it's too easy to imaginate a nicely understandable model of something like neuroscience where even the most brilliant minds have to pass for now (there's some amazing theoretism around on the net though and I'd wish doctors would spend more attention to that stuff instead of attending Pfizer's next meeting.)
 
Yah coffee is different than tea or energy drinks (I'd say these are in-between), maybe it's because coffee is both drunken hot as well as the beans roasted before but my hunch is that coffee contains more active alkaloids than just caffeine, at least Kratom being a coffee related species contains a whopping 30+ of them, most only in trace amounts but if those either alone or in their sum are somewhat active, maybe as adrenergics (Kratom is alpha2a[?] agonist like clonidine. If the coffee chem wouldn't retain this selectivity then it'd be a potent adrenergic.

Just that this isn't known doesn't have that it's not true, stuff which has been around for long tends not to have been analyzed with today's sensitive methods, even about DXM they keep finding out other stuff, for that it's not a DRI when it did bind to the relevant PCP site, for example. And it will for sure have at least one yet unknown target as otherwise I couldn't explain some weird ass side effect (hearing voices) which I don't get from any other disso so far.
Nobody pays to research coffee when it's not patentable, won't show up anything which could be sold, and is legal to trade.

Cigs have strong urges yeah but I find them also easy to work against because I can come with logic that smoking one wouldn't get me anything specially if I did smoke in the past hours to days, yet the carcinogens will be taken up anyways.
Oh, e-cigs are moreish as fuck. When I could moderate myself with cigs, I ended up vaping all the time, leading to some overdoses yet did continue as soon as they wore off. Was pretty nonsatisfying either. The harmaline in tobacco certainly is active even when it's weird that nobody ever got serotonin syndrome from smoking. Nicotine is antiserotonergic tho, it exacerbates serotonin-depletion induced brain zaps to a worrying degree.
Seems to be pro-glutamatergic too as dissociative rebound gets potentiated too.

Why-o-why did I decide to try prolintane some days ago? While it gave me an unexpectedly pleasurable and strong boost which is positive, my stim cravings are back and I'll run out today or tomorrow and won't be able to get more.
Coffee isn't comparable to real stims by far for me.
 
one time i quit coffee for 6 months and i kept getting this headache like once or twice a week for the entire 6 months and it hurt in the back of my head at the base of my skull...and when i started again, i never got it again

i love cawfee

i just drink shots of espresso if i go to the local slut hut, or i use a moka pot at home (stove-top espresso maker)



hnQqdER.gif
 
Can't stop drinking tea, PG tips tea we have in the UK, but I'd not say its caffeine addiction, I just love tea lol
I love all tea as well. We have a company over here called Bigelow and they make a variety pack. Constant Comment and Mint are my favorites. Oh wait, I don't like the one that tastes like nail polish remover. Forget the name of that one but it's the only tea I don't like.
 
Top