Stimulants Caffeine addiction?

[Mycophile]

Use Hordenine and coming off will be a breeze!

How does hordenine help?

Also, do you know if it negatively interacts with SSRIs or beznos?

Cause if so I can't take it.

 

[jasperkent]

In a typical day I drink about 2 pots of coffee. French Roast. Black, unsweetened.

 

[Pickledlemons]

at least it don't destroy your life lol

Reasons for this are because its cheap, readily available and not socially stigmatized... you dont have to spend all your time scrounging together money and finding hookups, trying to hide your use from friends and family..

Caffeine may be 'mild' but it isn't all that different from other stimulants.

 

[AutoTripper]

Sure, send me a link anytime.

Cool. Will do. Really mellowed out on lots kava here tonight, but enough cannabis and benzo by themselves too, but will do. Have a good night.

 

[Mycophile]

It hasn't been studied in humans much unfortunately. It's said to be an MAO-B inhibitor. In my experience with caffeine addiction, Hordenine allowed me to go from 2 pots of coffee a day to 100mg twice daily. I did not notice any withdrawals after 3 days so I cut the dose down to 50mg twice daily for another 3 days. Again, no withdrawals. So on the 7th day I just stopped all caffeine intake and it was pretty much over. I remained on Hordenine 5-7 days after. Can't remember exactly.

And I was on an SSRI the entire time and there was no negative reaction. Not sure about benzos but I'm 99% sure nothing bad will happen especially if you have a tolerance. Remember, this is a naturally occurring substance, it's not potentially dangerous like pharmaceutical MAO inhibitors.

Give it a try, it prevented me from feeling miserable and allowed my adenosine receptors to get back to their normal state.

Well regardless of your mixing it with an SSRI and being ok I'm going to have to pass.

That's not a risk worth taking just to minimize caffeine withdrawal.

I mean i never heard it was only pharmaceutical MAOIs that were dangerous but if that's true there are so many naturally occurring plants i want to take but haven't because of it like Ayahuasca with its MAOIs and 5-Meo-DMT, but I think it's just serotonin syndrome waiting to happen. I wish I could get off my Lexapro.

 

[simstim]

Natural maois do indeed seem safer than synthetic ones and are not all that common in nature. Kinda like natural nmda antagonists, which other than magnesium and a handful of under researched alkaloids, almost do not exist in nature and the natural ones are infinitely mild compared to synthetic ones.

 

[AutoTripper]

Sure, send me a link anytime.

Haha, thank god for this whole reaction system. When it was introduced, I dismissed the need, but now I literally couldn’t live without it.

I have proper amnesia from sustained high benzo use largely and general wastedness on weed and kava on top. I honestly would have forgotten this discussion ever took place but for the two likes from yourself and @simstim good old boys!

So please keep that in mind, I need a Bluelight secretary really lol. Anybody applying?

Here’s the thread here, very useful basic.

Ethnobotanicals - Has anyone ever tried Kava?

I've seen this drink called kava or kava kava being advertised online, it seems to be legal in most countries around the world. Apparently it is a natural alternative to xanax and benzos and is pretty potent. Has anyone ever tried it? Apparently it affects GABA receptors and is a MAO B enzyme...

www.bluelight.org

Another.

News - Welcome to Kava Culture - a spreading alternative for reducing anxiety

Welcome to Kava culture - a spreading alternative for reducing anxiety by Mohawk Greene | Filter | Dec 20 2019 Bula!—which means “life” or “to live”—is the traditional exclamation before drinking kava tea in Fijian culture. The ritual has also been adopted in some kava bars stateside. I knew...

www.bluelight.org

And Facts of the day archive…

In-Depth Kava Discussion

Larger, more in-depth discussions of kava related topics.

kavaforums.com

Still really cained, I vaped some weed in a really high end desktop and was drifting in dreamyland semiwake just drinking a coffee now because a signed delivery is coming, I wasn’t easy really dipping off and missing the door but so damn stoned though.

I can share cultivar links and options any time, when you’re ready, just shout me secretary!

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

Caffeine may be 'mild' but it isn't all that different from other stimulants.

I really disagree with you. Getting off amphetamine for example, is not something I'd say is comparable to getting off caffeine.
I've never heard of anybody robbing, stealing or sucking dick for coffee, for example. Ever.

Not saying it's not an addiction, but there are levels of addiction. And yes, I had a serious caffeine addiction once.

 

[AutoTripper]

I really disagree with you. Getting off amphetamine for example, is not something I'd say is comparable to getting off caffeine.
I've never heard of anybody robbing, stealing or sucking dick for coffee, for example. Ever.

Not saying it's not an addiction, but there are levels of addiction. And yes, I had a serious caffeine addiction once.

I would argue, on paper, in practice, and biologically, cognitively, it’s one of the better “addictions” I can think of, to put it a way.

I’d swap my current deep trench of a benzo dependance for an irresponsible lifestyle behavioural addiction to caffeine, if I had to be off caffeine in 6 months for a thousand quid, or 6 weeks for a million, I’d maybe suggest one week for 3 million lol!

I’d maybe go in for the 6 months off benzos for £500,000, but there is a line to draw, and money isn’t worth more than life.

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

I would argue, on paper, in practice, and biologically, cognitively, it’s one of the better “addictions” I can think of, to put it a way.

I’d swap my current deep trench of a benzo dependance for an irresponsible lifestyle behavioural addiction to caffeine,

Of course. That's my point precisely. It's an addiction, but it's not comparable to addictions to cocaine, amphetamines - and certainly not benzos.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I had a paranormal xperience with them monster cans
On early recovery i began craving that shit out of nowhere, never having even finished one can, next thing i know, i needed one 3 times a day, could not go to sleep if i didnt finish one before bed, until one day in the middle of the street i started hearing my heartbeat really loud, it was quite scary and felt even worse, and it was 100% because of the monster, after that i never had one again.
It's not paranormal, i just wanted to use that word.

 

[AutoTripper]

Of course. That's my point precisely. It's an addiction, but it's not comparable to addictions to cocaine, amphetamines - and certainly not benzos.

Exactly. We aren’t downplaying it. Just keeping things in place, and appreciating the half full glass where it is one. We all take so much for granted. Just changing perspective is the catalyst for change often, which is why two heads will often be better than one, even if the other head just serves as a confirmation reality check that you can trust your gut, you are totally right on whatever, and they are nuts lol!

A really big deal is made by people over cannabis too. I swear chronic cannabis use can become a kind of neurosis type psychological almost hypochondriac in terms of compulsion, helplessness, lack of self control type addiction.

I’ve used cannabis almost every day since 1997. I never used to have days off, not because I tried not to, nor aspired to but failed, always kicking myself lol naughty days adding up!

I just haven’t ever felt the need, or any problem. It’s just a part of my daily diet and medicine, basically.

I do have the occasional day off these days, if I write a day off and sleep on off all day. If I’m awake, I seek an altered mindframe basically. I try to get high and stay there. Weed is a very harmless part of that, like coffee, almost the lest of my problems.

Kava is very good shit. No physical dependancy, very broad range medicinal like cannabis.

They really are, on paper, just about the two cleanest recreational drugs, which can be taken or (leaven? Haha as if that would be a word but I still like it!)

LSD very non toxic, or if you could argue it is toxic on some level, it’s a thousand times less toxic than the pesticides (just one of them) at a thousand times lower a dose, on a supermarket Cauliflower.

But Etiz, not actually high in toxicity vs a trillion other drugs and medicines, but toxic in a different sense. It makes your body and brain toxic IMO by altering it and making it dependant.

That’s the only bad habit I have in one non figurative way of using that phrase.

I have LOADS of the other types of bad habits lol!

Anyway @tubgirl.jpg so high on weed I vaped more than I realised a few hours ago, took some edibles before my coffee just now went straight to my head. The vapor was so smooth though, and so easy to keep hitting, this is the model. I have the newer precise digital version but same in most ways just not as refined and responsive a heater and thermocouple.



But the best flower vaporizer I’ve ever used for sheer ultimate high from weed, is the legendary Dutch Verdamper.



Right, gonna vape the rest of the load, not needed but then shower maybe to perk up to catch the delivery man. I’m bound to make some kava as I just hunt out psychoactives, which is why I’m only safe asleep in bed lol.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I really disagree with you. Getting off amphetamine for example, is not something I'd say is comparable to getting off caffeine.
I've never heard of anybody robbing, stealing or sucking dick for coffee, for example. Ever.

Not saying it's not an addiction, but there are levels of addiction. And yes, I had a serious caffeine addiction once.

You are not wrong per say, we dont really know what it would be like if coffee was $200 a cup, illegal and socially stigmatized. But I think 95% of people would quit and remaining 5% would squander their lifelihoods on the on another cup, they could even lose their job on the next drug test and even go to prison if caught. Caffeine is pretty mild but everyones different, everyone has the drug that they are ' weak' to, Ive known people who got hopelessly hooked on pseudoepedrine of all things.

People try to quit coffee all the time and fail. its not a big deal because its an easy addiction to maintain. Just like methadone is an easier addiction to maintain that heroin.. primarily because its easier to get which frees people up to things other than struggle to get their fix.

Caffeine is not as serious an addiction as amphetamine but... its in the same ballpark as should not be laughed off as it often is.

 

[AutoTripper]

That’s a good idea actually. An absolute surefire way to measure whether somebody is mad or not- start charging them $200 a cup of coffee.

If they buy once, tick…Mad.

Twice, tick…Absolutely Crackers…Next!

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

Caffeine is not as serious an addiction as amphetamine but... its in the same ballpark as should not be laughed off as it often is.

It's an addiction, I agree with that. But it's not the same ballpark, or even sport as amphetamine, I'd say.
Nothing to be laughed at, but the psychotropic properties of caffeine simply can't be compared to those of cocaine and amphetamine.

I get your point, but I seriously doubt that somebody would do for caffeine what they do for heavy stimulants.

 

[Pickledlemons]

It's an addiction, I agree with that. But it's not the same ballpark, or even sport as amphetamine, I'd say.
Nothing to be laughed at, but the psychotropic properties of caffeine simply can't be compared to those of cocaine and amphetamine.

I get your point, but I seriously doubt that somebody would do for caffeine what they do for heavy stimulants.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I find caffeine harder to quit than amphetamine. Amphetamine withdrawal just makes me tired and chilled out, it can even be enjoyable. That lack of dopamine really doesn't even give me the motivation to find more amphetamine. Caffeine withdrawal on the otherhand gives me a god awful headache. Doesn't sound so bad until you have it LOL. And a cup of coffee is always a minute or two within my grasp to alleviate that pain. But yeah point being everyone is different where addiction is concerned, and that social and availability factors play a huge role.

 

[AutoTripper]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I find caffeine harder to quit than amphetamine. Amphetamine withdrawal just makes me tired and chilled out, it can even be enjoyable. That lack of dopamine really doesn't even give me the motivation to find more amphetamine. Caffeine withdrawal on the otherhand gives me a god awful headache. Doesn't sound so bad until you have it LOL. And a cup of coffee is always a minute or two within my grasp to alleviate that pain. But yeah point being everyone is different where addiction is concerned, and that social and availability factors play a huge role.

I won’t dispute your experience and angle. It’s analogous to how tobacco is secretly an incredibly hard habit to kick psychologically.

Very fortunately I managed never to get myself psychologically addicted to tobacco I never actually smokes tobacco on its own in my life only with cannabis for about four years before I became severely allergic to tobacco smoke.

I have never taken a single puff on a cigarette in my lifetime nor smoked a single rollup or ever once smoked tobacco bite self intentionally only in joints for those few years after having already used cannabis for about five years before I ever used tobacco once in my life.

But amphetamine addiction is something where there is a massively increasing incentive to stop the behaviour because of the enormous disruptive impact it is having in every area of your life and on your health and mentality, To a much greater degree than coffee hence it’s so much easier to carry on smoking that roll up every few hours and putting it off and drinking that cuppa.

But if there was enough incentive then I believe we can sell ourselves short often regarding willpower And what is achievable if we just put our minds to it with the right mindset and focus.

 

[JackARoe]

Reasons for this are because its cheap, readily available and not socially stigmatized..

Exactly, availability. When I worked in the flower industry I had access to cheap boxes of strong poppy pods for years. So that turned me from junkie to just a regular addict that could function and no one knew. I always said it is avaialbility that is the worst part and kills people. I did steal money for heroin. I learned that was wrong as I pondered that and didn't have to anymore.

I think if any drug were available everywhere and was part of social hour would be much easier to exist. Granted yes some drugs are harsher than others but with availability it is a start to even getting off them. All drugs should be a medical issue not a criminal issue.

 

[simstim]

I love my coffee!! It's the only drug allowed in the jail here. It's also the only drug you can buy with food stamps!!

Gotta love it! I started drinking coffee with my dad on the way to church at age 3. I really loved the effects of it at a super young age. Probably my first true drug of choice, and I still consume it almost daily 33 years later!!!!

It's also the only drug they will GIVE you at recovery meetings. It's even presumed that upon arrival at meetings a large supply of coffee will be available.

Coffee on, bluelight!

 

[plumbus-nine]

I'm one of those who've the bad luck of being overly sensitive to caffeine. When I'm tired, or in usually depressed mornings, I take one cup of instant and it wakes me up or it doesn't. It's a hit or miss. In the occasions of not, I either get nothing at all like from decaffeinated one, or then a jittery mess. Also while I'm not hypertonic, I have quite a bit of tachycardia (resting BPM never below 80, sometimes 90-100) which might be the result of a slight heart attack induced by excessive vasoconstriction while sky high on deschloroketamine. Remember collapsing after redosing in a public bathroom but didn't care (was severly destructive at that time, just lost my first long term gf). I had fast heartbeat before but not so extreme. Yeah, for that I usually take propranolol and with that I tolerate caffeine somewhat better, when not taking it, my BPM would rocket to over 100 just from one cup. Guess my adrenergic glands are pretty much fucked, PTSD stuff. Weirdly did morphine exacerbate the tachycardia.

@simstim: They don't allow smoking cigarettes? That's harsh, even when I have a strong aversion against all these nice carcinogens in tobacco smoke, I like the taste from time to time and the effects (which I also only sometimes get and only when not smoking more than maybe two a day, otherwise it's just an addiction-withdrawal-relief cycle.)

@JackARoe, exactly my thoughts. The main desaster of addiction isn't that itself but the stuff which comes along with, mostly thanks Nixon and his stupid war on drugs, but also an overly conservative society and politics leaders who don't wanna risk to go progressive. In Switzerland some decades ago they had a serious problem with open drug scenes, dying addicts injecting heroin in front of television cameras aren't good for the reputation so they quasi-decriminalized it by opening easily accessible maintenance programs first with methadone, then heroin and eventually retarded morphine. By easily accessible I mean easily so, the only thing besides a brief interview was a positive urine sample, nothing more and I walked home with a week's supply of methadone. Granted, I trialed buprenorphine before with the same clinic so they had me on the radar but given that I got bupe for dissociative addiction, not opioids (they knew fuck about dissos, probably still do and thought DXM was an opioid which needs to be substituted with methadone) it's still kinda remarkable. Not sure if going there was one of the more or less wise decisions of my life, maybe it saved me from jail but got me deeper into addiction than ever before. Still, after 3 years of full agonists, I am surprised by the relative mildness of withdrawal I get - this unfortunately doesn't help against relapsing, more the opposite.

Sorry, kinda walls of text today. Prolintane say thank'd, that one's ten times better than any coffee of this world if you ask me. They should bring back the times of OTC stims, would close a good part of the illicit stim market if things were just available, no more Mexican meth cooks in Amsterdam and there'd still be a majority of people who don't want to do drugs - afaik legal marijuana didn't bring in the flood of addicts and if you ask me, marijuana is one of the (mentally) more dangerous drugs out there. I get full-on panic attack from just two or three hits of an A'damer joint, the range between no effects and too much is very thin, and while it has been disproven that psychedelics should lead to psychosis, there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia. It's just the question what came first, illness/predisposity and drug-induced relief or the drug. They should limit the strength of marijuana, or classify it as mild - medium - strong, so that the noobs choice correctly. My only positive experience with weed was from some low-strength outdoor stuff, and weirdly from one synth, UR-144 if I remember correctly. We took industrial hemp and infused that with UR-144, still don't know but speculated that the contained CBD might have helped. Indeed did a solid dose of CBD drops I happened to have bought the same time stop said A'dam panic attack.

But back to topic - caffeine. Why can't they come up with something better? Is it really just that such a thing would have no chance of ever getting approved for human consumption, that brave Dr. Nutt has been fired for suggesting a better alternative to booze (afaik, correct me if I'm wrong) and that's something society could really only beneficiate from. Also the opposite of caffeine, an adenosine reuptake inhibitor/agonist, might be something interesting to have handy when coming down from stims. That benzodiazepine antidote flumazenil is probably only tolerated because it's an adenosine RI, otherwise it would be an instant ticket to seizures. Seems to even aid with benzo withdrawal, which is remarkable for an antagonist.