Bupe Buprenorphine for depression?

[Artificial Emotion]

What about other kappa opioid receptor agonism acting as antidepressants?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

What about doses even lower than that? What I really need to know is what is the lowest effective dose of buprenorphine for depression? I mean it's not like maintenance doses will be needed...

Switching to buprenorphine from methadone is often difficult and withdrawals lasting several days or more are often encountered mostly when the methadone dose is any higher than 30 mg/day (the suggested and usual dose for switching to buprenorphine). A 30 mg dose of methadone is relatively low, and some patients have difficulty reaching that dose, for a variety of reasons, usually the emergence of withdrawal symptoms.[32] Healthy users of methadone who commit to a slow taper, however, frequently find success in tapering to 30 mg in order to switch to buprenorphine, as well as in tapering off of methadone completely without the use of buprenorphine. Switching to buprenorphine at higher doses of methadone may be uncomfortable for the user. One reason is that users must be in withdrawal before switching to buprenorphine, and users of opiates with long half-lives, like methadone, may need to wait several days after their last dose of methadone before they are fully in withdrawal and ready to begin buprenorphine. Users of heroin, hydrocodone, oxycodone, and morphine, as well as most other common opiates, only need to wait a maximum of twenty-four hours before they are fully in withdrawal and ready to begin buprenorphine. For this reason, some doctors switch methadone users to a shorter acting opiate, such as morphine, for a few days before allowing withdrawal to occur and beginning buprenorphine.

I wouldn't use methadone and buprenorphine at the same time.

Only use one or the other.

Buprenorphine has a stronger affinity toward the receptor - it will kick the methadone off of your receptors at once and you will be in WD.

What about other kappa opioid receptor agonism acting as antidepressants?

Not agonism; antagonism.

Buprenorphine is also a κ-opioid receptor antagonist, and partial/full agonist at the recombinant human ORL1 nociceptin receptor.[12]

I think part of the quality buprenorphine has in making people feel better lies within the kappa receptor antagonism. But I think the biggest part of the antidepressant effect comes from norbuprenorphine's mu agonism.

Norbuprenorphine is the active, dealkylated metabolite of buprenorphine. However, it has a slightly different binding profile to opioid receptors, acting as a stronger partial agonist at the mu opioid receptor than buprenorphine itself, as well as being a potent full agonist for the nociceptin receptor.[1] Although Norbuprenorphine is a stronger metabolite than Buprenorphine, it does not readily cross the blood brain barrier.

I think when taken at a low enough dose, norbuprenorphine is a very good mu agonist, and I think that's what makes people feel the best IMO. Accompanied by the kappa opioid receptor antagonism, it is an ideal antidepressant.

 

[Artificial Emotion]

Sorry, I put antagonism but then changed it for somer reason, but yes I was aware of that actually.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Sorry, I put antagonism but then changed it for somer reason, but yes I was aware of that actually.

It's OK.

Buprenorphine is one of the most complex opiates in terms of pharmacological functioning.

 

[mwl65926]

I suppose I am the exception

My psychologist suggested that I should go on buprenorphine after learning that there is a small percentage of people who suffer from depression/ anxiety because they cannot produce sufficient levels of natural endorphins, and no medication but an opiate will allow them to feel normal. I am one of those people, and my psychiatrist agrees. He gave me a referral to a licensed clinic and I am receiving my prescription for buprenorphine tomorrow. I am very excited. For the last few months, I have been using tramadol every few days to help me feel like a normal human being, but I can't take it every day due to tolerance issues. That won't be an issue with buprenorphine. Honestly, I could care less if I develop a dependency. Anything to get rid of this mind-numbing anxiety and depression. I don't intend to stop using it for a very long time.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

My psychologist suggested that I should go on buprenorphine after learning that there is a small percentage of people who suffer from depression/ anxiety because they cannot produce sufficient levels of natural endorphins, and no medication but an opiate will allow them to feel normal. I am one of those people, and my psychiatrist agrees. He gave me a referral to a licensed clinic and I am receiving my prescription for buprenorphine tomorrow. I am very excited. For the last few months, I have been using tramadol every few days to help me feel like a normal human being, but I can't take it every day due to tolerance issues. That won't be an issue with buprenorphine. Honestly, I could care less if I develop a dependency. Anything to get rid of this mind-numbing anxiety and depression. I don't intend to stop using it for a very long time.

Some people believe buprenorphine can work well in last resort cases for anxiety and depression.

The research between opiates and depression is amazing. Patients often receive therapeutic effect from a low dose of an opiate, and there is definitely hope for those suffering from an endogenous lack of endorphins.

Where do you live?

 

[Artificial Emotion]

ASFAIK methadone, due to it being a full agonist, is a more effective anxiolytic than buprenorphine, especially at higher doses. Is this correct, or does the kappa-opiate receptor antagonism of buprenorphine add more to buprenorphine's efficacy as an anxiolytic than methadone?

 

[Menstrualfuck]

I've used buprenorphine as an antidepressant for the good part of a year and my personal experience is that it works like any antidepressant with one tangent: It will get you a little fucked up the first few days. After the initial euphoria wears down it will make you chemically not depressed, but like SSRIs, tricyclics, and SNRIs it'll poop out after a few months. Also, the withdrawal from eight months on buprenorphine was completely fucking insidious; it was comparable to methadone withdrawal, and was definitely much more chronic than the transient morphine withdrawal. Venlafaxine, poppy pod, and morphine withdrawal weren't even a pimple on methadone and buprenorphine's ass in that department. So, if you are suicidal, I'd recommend a non-psychologically addictive antidepressant and some psychotherapy or a weekly visit from a social worker, exercise, a good diet regimen, and some time with friends… or anybody.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I've used buprenorphine as an antidepressant for the good part of a year and my personal experience is that it works like any antidepressant with one tangent: It will get you a little fucked up the first few days. After the initial euphoria wears down it will make you chemically not depressed, but like SSRIs, tricyclics, and SNRIs it'll poop out after a few months. Also, the withdrawal from eight months on buprenorphine was completely fucking insidious; it was comparable to methadone withdrawal, and was definitely much more chronic than the transient morphine withdrawal. Venlafaxine, poppy pod, and morphine withdrawal weren't a pimple on methadone and buprenorphine's as in that department. So, if you are suicidal, I'd recommend a non-psychologically addictive antidepressant and some psychotherapy or a weekly visit from a social worker, exercise, a good diet regimen, and some time with friends… or anybody.

How much were you taking daily?

I get high from buprenorphine every day I've been on it for at least over a year and a half now.

 

[Menstrualfuck]

How much were you taking daily?

I get high from buprenorphine every day I've been on it for at least over a year and a half now.

I started out at 2mg, worked up to 4mg as I found higher doses really didn't have any benefit and added to the side effects but I still did them every now and then. I was still able to get high on subcutaneous and IV shots of fentanyl and heroin but it wasn't anything worth the trouble. I was still able to get some effects from bupe but it wasn't in the least bit magical and I was getting sick of it. From 4mg I weaned down to 1mg (1mg was sufficient to keep me level for 24 hours at any daily level on buprenorphine) and had two weeks at 0.5 and 0.25mg. If you want to avoid the very nasty stuff you'll have to wean down to that level for at least a month or maybe longer--for the sake of avoidance I'd say longer. Some people still couldn't avoid the nasty withdrawal from titration and some people can stay at a relatively high dose and get few withdrawal effects.

 

[oxyhydro]

Not in any legal way.

The chances of finding a doctor to prescribe buprenorphine for depression is almost non-existent, they are scared to death by the DEA unfortunately. I was treated on suboxone for addiction and eventually weened myself off it, but I was still receiving monthly scripts for 16mg a day so by the time I fired my doc I had a large supply of suboxone. Unfortunately my depression returned so I began using the bupe again, but at very small doses, 0.8 mg/day to be exact.

I've been doing this for a while now and my depression has been greatly tamed, im still not "happy", but if I were to increase my bupe dose to get happy that would only lead me back to addiction, and the happiness would just be a high and not real.

The problem is I'm pretty sure that even though they are my own meds, its still illegal. I dont have a problem with it because I'm not selling them or anything, just taking care of myself, but nonetheless if I were caught it would be bad.

For you, I can suggest you do this because thats against the rules, but I'll say that when I run out of suboxone, ill probably go back to a suboxone doctor and fake a hardcore addiction, that way I can work up to a larger dose per day and be prescribed up to 120 8mg tabs a month, and since im taking .8 mg that means every month I would really be getting 1200 doses a month, in other words If I am treated for the minimum recommendation of three months, I would have stockpiled 9.8 years worth of buprenorphine assuming I stay at .8mg a day. Right now I have about 5 years before I need to do this.

While this is illegal, I feel that its justified because I've tried every other treatment for depression and non worked, so I feel I have a right to take care of myself and even though I'm breaking the law by lying to a doctor, I'm not putting anyone in danger, it would be different if I was selling the subs but I would never do that.

So to clear up, I am not suggesting you fake an addiciton and break the law to treat your depression, I'm just explaining the situation for depressed people that could be treated best with buprenorphine. Studies are being done, in the next 5-10 years I do expect to see bupe being made in smaller doses for depression, like Temgesic except thats only approved for pain.

Good luck.

EDIT: Sorry I forgot to mention how I got an accurate 0.8 mg dose from 8mg tablets. I bought a 10ml oral syringe from CVS, crushed up a suboxone 8mg tablet, put powder in a shot glass, added 10ml of hot tap water, and drew the solution into the syringe. The tablet dissolves completely so there should be no powder. With this, each ml of liquid in the syringe contains 0.8 mg buprenorphine (and some naloxone but that has no effect, at least on me). I would keep the syringe in my fridge because I heard that some drugs are less stable when they are in a solution, and every morning I would squirt 1ml from the syringe into a glass and keep the liquid under my tongue for about 5-10 minutes. The syringe has marking on it so its easy to make accurate measurements, and its designed for dispensing liquid medication.

Another important note, its likely that you will experience a bit of a high at this dose if you have no opiate tolerance, and its important not to chase this high by upping your dose, once you stabilize on .8mg (or lower) you will feel overall better than you did before the bupe, but less than you did on your first dose. Remember that the high isn't true happiness, stay on a low dose. (i started at .8 because I had a small tolerance, I suggest starting at .2mg a day and not going past .8)

 

[fromthatshow]

My friend just got on it for depression. He had to go in to a suboxone doctor and lie saying he was addicted to opiates. No he has a a script for 2mg twice a day. This happened this morning so we'll see if it works.

 

[jamesBrown]

I think over time, after more studies are done on buprenorphine, it will eventually find its way into the "anti-depressant" category. Full agonist opiates are allready being studied(and prescribed in a few places) for the use of treating depression so I think that a partial agonist like buprenorphine, which poses less risk in many ways, will be a good "middle ground" drug for people to accept the use of opiates for the treatment of depression.

 

[hydrochron]

Bupe is a great opiate for opiate addicts with depression. It gives them a opiate with just enough bang to be worthwhile. But not to much.

In my opinion though I dont think it would ever be good to give it to people who are depressed because the withdrawal is terrible.

However it does work in depressed people. I knew somone who was depressed and loved this stuff. They weren't even addicted to opiates, they litterly just liked taking this stuff so dam much, to this day I cant believe it. I mean they just loved it, so it definently works in depressed patients.

But so does every opiate, about the time they start prescribing opiates for depression is the same time the whole world will be running out to get there morphine prescription lol.

I'm interested to see what happens with this.

 

[jamesBrown]

Bupe is a great opiate for opiate addicts with depression. It gives them a opiate with just enough bang to be worthwhile. But not to much.

In my opinion though I dont think it would ever be good to give it to people who are depressed because the withdrawal is terrible.

However it does work in depressed people. I knew somone who was depressed and loved this stuff. They weren't even addicted to opiates, they litterly just liked taking this stuff so dam much, to this day I cant believe it. I mean they just loved it, so it definently works in depressed patients.

But so does every opiate, about the time they start prescribing opiates for depression is the same time the whole world will be running out to get there morphine prescription lol.

I'm interested to see what happens with this.

Yes, the dangers of using opiates as anti-depression meds are great but since bupe is only a partial agonist with a ceiling effect as well, I think it is a much more viable option for use on depression than most other opiates. Of course anyone can get high off of some opiates and feel happier, but using bupe in tiny doses to help give them not only slight euphoria, but also energy, and uplifting mood qualities would be a "do-able" option in my opinion. Because I take small doses of bupe and can get the energy, and anti-depressant effects sometimes without the euphoric effects, so this makes me think they are seperate effects and the euphoria is not what causes all of the other beneficial attributes
Allthough I do feel that if bupe is ever approved for use as an anti-depressant, I think it should only be used in cases where every other option has been exhausted and the bupe is a sort of last resort kind of thing.

 

[hydrochron]

Even though it's a partial agonist, it's a very potent one. And would probably do more harm then good.

I'm glad that it works for you, but you were previously addicted to opiates. It worked for me to but there were still side effects, somtimes I was to speedy and moody. It's just not a good idea to take somone who's not addicted to opiates and have them start taking this. Because when they want to quit, there going to have a really tough time.

Not to mention the paws from suboxone last forever, the bad would out weigh the good by far.

 

[jamesBrown]

yes, it can be a very problematic drug if used in certain ways.

 

[Opioid420z]

I"m suprised nobody has talked about oxy op's.... I find although addicting in its most famous of ways, oxy op's at a very low dose of 10-20mgs taken once a day can work some what like a bupe because of how it lasts all day and gives you a constant good feeling of wellbeing all day. Bupe can be taken by somebody without tolerance yet it would have to be less than 1mg, or a small bump and I mean small, like the size of an apple seed. Even myself with a decent tolerance to opioids when I use Subs they help a lot with depression and keep me ok and energetic and focused all day into the night into the next day. The way to get off them is by working with the clock. Take less and less and stretch it even further the next day and the next. If you took it at 8am and then have to take it at 11pm, fine, then the next day wait until 12pm or 1 am before taking it again. Use only a small amount and then even smaller until you find the dose that you need just to feel well, not buzzed. Oxy op's imo work very well for depression yet addiction is a bitch.....

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Even though it's a partial agonist, it's a very potent one. And would probably do more harm then good.

I'm glad that it works for you, but you were previously addicted to opiates. It worked for me to but there were still side effects, somtimes I was to speedy and moody. It's just not a good idea to take somone who's not addicted to opiates and have them start taking this. Because when they want to quit, there going to have a really tough time.

Not to mention the paws from suboxone last forever, the bad would out weigh the good by far.

I'm sure it would be easier than coming off of SSRI's if you tapered off of buprenorphine properly.

 

[drminaq]

I know this thread is ancient but I thought my two cents might be of interest. I was prescribed suboxone for opiate substitution therapy (or so my Doctor thought), In reality, I have tried literally every SS(N)RI on the market with no effect. That means no withdrawal either...that was until I tried Cymblata (duloxetine)...It made me feel super motivated...motivated to blow my brains out that is...I was only on it for about two months until I gave it up and had some strange WD effects...This is when I found www.cymbaltawithdrarwal.com.
I should add that I was using opiates albeit, very rarely. I think in most cases SSRI's do work for some and they are safer in the long run.
Personally, I don't feel "good" unless I have some opiate (or amphetamine) on board. I am scared shitless of how I will ever get off the "box"; Sub that is...
All that said, I would liken treating most non drug induced depression with opiates to shooting a mouse with a shotgun. It works, but it can be messy.
I urge anyone who is considering this to think it over seriously. Suboxone, and opiates in general, have been proven to actually make pain (physical or mental) worse in the long run.
I would also like to add that I don't think I could have made it this far in my life if it were not for Suboxone and it's fabulous antidepressant qualities.
I hope you get my point here. Please tread carefully all with this.
Cheers