Bupe Bupe to Hydro to Bupe -- Never felt the Hydro

[DeathIndustrial88]

Something I just thought of. Do you think the fact that I was taking 6 to 8 hydros a day might have prolonged the higher tolerance from the bupe? I was thinking about it and if the bupe tolerance is high, taking those hydros would at best keep the tolerance at the 6-8 hydros I was taking. So I'm wondering if it's a bad idea to keep taking hydros to try and feel something; that could just stifle the overall tolerance from coming down.

I'm not sure if that makes sense but the bottom line I'm thinking is it's best to take nothing for a week and let the tolerance drop, then try hydros. If I still don't feel them then, stop taking them and wait another few days then try again Vs. taking them every day like I was.

I don't know.
I doubt it. While bupe is incredibly potent & can increase tolerance, it's still just a partial agonist.
And you were taking pretty high doses of hydro, so.

If that were the case, I doubt I'd be able to feel 10mg of norco ontop of my bupe, yet I still do. It's not impossible though I guess.
Tolerance to full agonists tends to drop while on bupe, at least to some degree.
Yeah if you can go a week or so, then try it definitely.
Even just 2-4mg of bupe can really blunt any full agonist for a good 24-48hrs, so if you're taking bupe one day & then hydro the next, then it's probably being blocked some what.

I find that my body still needs bupe even when I do use full agonists. It's weird. I can skip my bupe & take hydros & they'll last maybe 2-3hrs and then I'll literally start feeling like I'm in withdrawals & then have to take my bupe.

Bupe is really sedating too. I believe it's because some of it's metabolites are sedatives. While full agonists may make me nod out, it feels good & euphoric & any residual drowsiness wears off after awhile. But with bupe, I can get smacked in the face too, to the point where I have to nap for several hours to shake off the extra heavy sedation that even heroin never caused me, but it feels more dysphoric & annoying compared to when other opioids make me drowsy. Bupe is a weird one.

 

[BilboBaggins2]

I don't know.
I doubt it. While bupe is incredibly potent & can increase tolerance, it's still just a partial agonist.
And you were taking pretty high doses of hydro, so.

If that were the case, I doubt I'd be able to feel 10mg of norco ontop of my bupe, yet I still do. It's not impossible though I guess.
Tolerance to full agonists tends to drop while on bupe, at least to some degree.
Yeah if you can go a week or so, then try it definitely.
Even just 2-4mg of bupe can really blunt any full agonist for a good 24-48hrs, so if you're taking bupe one day & then hydro the next, then it's probably being blocked some what.

I find that my body still needs bupe even when I do use full agonists. It's weird. I can skip my bupe & take hydros & they'll last maybe 2-3hrs and then I'll literally start feeling like I'm in withdrawals & then have to take my bupe.

Bupe is really sedating too. I believe it's because some of it's metabolites are sedatives. While full agonists may make me nod out, it feels good & euphoric & any residual drowsiness wears off after awhile. But with bupe, I can get smacked in the face too, to the point where I have to nap for several hours to shake off the extra heavy sedation that even heroin never caused me, but it feels more dysphoric & annoying compared to when other opioids make me drowsy. Bupe is a weird one.

It's interesting how everyone is different. Like today I've been off bupe for 72 hours; My last dose was Saturday morning, 8 mg. The day before that I took nothing, then the two days before that I took 8 mg each day.

I feel nothing from Hydros today. Nothing at all. I'm going to stop taking them and save them because based on past history I won't feel them for at least a week. Now if I took bupe today I'd get a major buzz that would keep going for hours. I actually like the bupe buzz; it's sedating and definitely an opiate buzz but it doesn't really do a major euphoria, maybe a half euphoria compared to Oxy or Hydro.

If I could re-dose bupe I'd be happy to just use that and nothing else, but I've found once you dose it and get benefit you won't be able to do it again for two days. In the past I took 30 mg Roxies because of my back for years, and developed an addiction to where I was taking as many as 5-6 30 mg pills a day. Toward the end of it I got no benefit from the Oxy other than staying out of withdrawal. When I got stabilized on Bupe I was much happier even though I had more back pain because I stopped having to worry about having enough of the Oxy for business trips. I constantly had a fear that I'd have to miss a meeting or cancel a business trip due to w/d but it never happened. I also was constantly freezing cold when I'd lift weights in the morning, sometimes to the point that I'd have to quit halfway through my workout after I'd start sweating because I was shivering -- even though I was taking enough Oxy. I figured out that when you get to a certain level of oxy use your body temperature changes to the point that even in mid-summer if a gym has the AC on you're gonna be frigid as soon as you start sweating. Since I was getting little value out of the Oxys and too much stress worrying about running out I decided to quit and save the money. Having Bupe to be able to still feel opiates but feel great has been a Godsend, but it sure would be great if I could take little holidays and enjoy hydro.

Nothing is easy...I guess I'll wait a few more days before wasting any more hydros. Hopefully by the time I go back on Bupe I'll be at the level that 1 mg or 2 mg will give me a good buzz making hydro use a little easier.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

It's interesting how everyone is different. Like today I've been off bupe for 72 hours; My last dose was Saturday morning, 8 mg. The day before that I took nothing, then the two days before that I took 8 mg each day.

I feel nothing from Hydros today. Nothing at all. I'm going to stop taking them and save them because based on past history I won't feel them for at least a week. Now if I took bupe today I'd get a major buzz that would keep going for hours. I actually like the bupe buzz; it's sedating and definitely an opiate buzz but it doesn't really do a major euphoria, maybe a half euphoria compared to Oxy or Hydro.

If I could re-dose bupe I'd be happy to just use that and nothing else, but I've found once you dose it and get benefit you won't be able to do it again for two days. In the past I took 30 mg Roxies because of my back for years, and developed an addition to where I was taking as many as 5-6 30 mg pills a day. Toward the end of it I got no benefit from the Oxy other than staying out of withdrawal. When I got stabilized on Bupe I was much happier even though I had more back pain because I stopped having to worry about having enough of the Oxy for business trips. I constantly had a fear that I'd have to miss a meeting or cancel a business trip due to w/d but it never happened. I also was constantly freezing cold when I'd lift weights in the morning, sometimes to the point that I'd have to quit halfway through my workout after I'd start sweating because I was shivering -- even though I was taking enough Oxy. I figured out that when you get to a certain level of oxy use your body temperature changes to the point that even in mid-summer if a gym has the AC on you're gonna be frigid as soon as you start sweating. Since I was getting little value out of the Oxys and too much stress worrying about running out I decided to quit and save the money. Having Bupe to be able to still feel opiates but feel great has been a Godsend, but it sure would be great if I could take little holidays and enjoy hydro.

Nothing is easy...I guess I'll wait a few more days before wasting any more hydros. Hopefully by the time I go back on Bupe I'll be at the level that 1 mg or 2 mg will give me a good buzz making hydro use a little easier.

Yeah all you can do is wait & try again I suppose.
I still think it's incredibly weird that you aren't getting any effects whatsoever, even after lengthy time off the bupe.
I hear you though about bupe. That's one thing that sucks about bupe is redosing doesn't do a whole lot extra. It just sort of prolongs the drowsiness I had from an earlier dose. Where as with heroin or hydros or something, you at least know you're gonna feel something again when you redose.

 

[BilboBaggins2]

Yeah all you can do is wait & try again I suppose.
I still think it's incredibly weird that you aren't getting any effects whatsoever, even after lengthy time off the bupe.
I hear you though about bupe. That's one thing that sucks about bupe is redosing doesn't do a whole lot extra. It just sort of prolongs the drowsiness I had from an earlier dose. Where as with heroin or hydros or something, you at least know you're gonna feel something again when you redose.

I'm wondering if because I had such a high tolerance to Oxy's -- 30-45 mg times 4-5 times a day -- that might be my problem. I did manage to taper down to 4 10 mg hydros per day before inducting Bupe and it worked like a champ. I wonder if the fact that I had a high Oxy tolerance, then took Bupe which is massively strong and tends to keep tolerance high, if my body feels like it's had a high tolerance straight through for so long that it just can't feel hydro anymore. Maybe it's a permanently high tolerance, or at least won't go down without a couple of months of complete abstinence.

Last time I tried to take hydro I started at 24 hours after my last bupe dose. I continued taking 90 to 100 mg of Hydro a day for 8 days, never feeling a thing. On Day 8 I finally started feeling Bupe withdrawal, and the hydros wouldn't touch it. I was on my last few hydros and was feeling so lousy I just decided to go back on Bupe...I took 4 mg and in 15 minutes felt perfect. So the hydros must have at least kept me out of Bupe withdrawal for 5-6 days until on that last day the Bupe w/d was just too much for hydro's to treat. That doesn't make perfect sense to me but it's all I can think of.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I'm wondering if because I had such a high tolerance to Oxy's -- 30-45 mg times 4-5 times a day -- that might be my problem. I did manage to taper down to 4 10 mg hydros per day before inducting Bupe and it worked like a champ. I wonder if the fact that I had a high Oxy tolerance, then took Bupe which is massively strong and tends to keep tolerance high, if my body feels like it's had a high tolerance straight through for so long that it just can't feel hydro anymore. Maybe it's a permanently high tolerance, or at least won't go down without a couple of months of complete abstinence.

Last time I tried to take hydro I started at 24 hours after my last bupe dose. I continued taking 90 to 100 mg of Hydro a day for 8 days, never feeling a thing. On Day 8 I finally started feeling Bupe withdrawal, and the hydros wouldn't touch it. I was on my last few hydros and was feeling so lousy I just decided to go back on Bupe...I took 4 mg and in 15 minutes felt perfect. So the hydros must have at least kept me out of Bupe withdrawal for 5-6 days until on that last day the Bupe w/d was just too much for hydro's to treat. That doesn't make perfect sense to me but it's all I can think of.

Damn, Hmmm. Yeah that's really strange.
Are you on any other medications? Wonder if there could be a metabolism issue going on & your body just doesn't work with hydrocodone.
I think bupe, especially in high doses, does raise tolerance or does something semi-permanent to the receptors.

I use to be able to get heroin-esque nods from tramadol all through out my 20's, but after getting on heroin & then bupe, I stopped getting any nodding from tramadol, even with time off from bupe. Tramadol still felt good, especially ontop of bupe, but it lost something after my body got use to bupe. Some times I wonder if my liver enzymes changed & I no longer metabolize tramadol the way I use to. Or it's some kind of weird perma-tolerance from being on bupe. Hard to say for sure.
What day are you on now without bupe? Curious if the hydrocone will work for ya again with a good week in between in your last bupe dose.

I actually was able to use some hydrocodone last winter & while it was incredibly blunted, I could still feel it tickling my opioid receptors & my depression (which is there when I'm on bupe) completely vanished like it use to when I would use heroin & other full agonists. But it only lasted like 3hrs maybe, if that. Where as in the past, a good dose of hydro could last me 6-8hrs if I was lucky.

Idk, it's very strange. Definitely keep up posted in how the hydro works out this time around!

 

[chicken hoagie]

I'm wondering if because I had such a high tolerance to Oxy's -- 30-45 mg times 4-5 times a day -- that might be my problem. I did manage to taper down to 4 10 mg hydros per day before inducting Bupe and it worked like a champ. I wonder if the fact that I had a high Oxy tolerance, then took Bupe which is massively strong and tends to keep tolerance high, if my body feels like it's had a high tolerance straight through for so long that it just can't feel hydro anymore. Maybe it's a permanently high tolerance, or at least won't go down without a couple of months of complete abstinence.

Last time I tried to take hydro I started at 24 hours after my last bupe dose. I continued taking 90 to 100 mg of Hydro a day for 8 days, never feeling a thing. On Day 8 I finally started feeling Bupe withdrawal, and the hydros wouldn't touch it. I was on my last few hydros and was feeling so lousy I just decided to go back on Bupe...I took 4 mg and in 15 minutes felt perfect. So the hydros must have at least kept me out of Bupe withdrawal for 5-6 days until on that last day the Bupe w/d was just too much for hydro's to treat. That doesn't make perfect sense to me but it's all I can think of.

There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for all of this - albeit if you can grasp the pharmacological aspect of opioids.

MOR:DOR:KOR (mu, delta, kappa receptors)

We all have different densities in different regions of the brain and body, and different opioids will also bind in slightly different ratios which is the current basis as to what determines an opioid's respiratory effects, rewarding and reinforcing effects as well as analgesic effects and nociceptive effects, effects on mood, memory..the whole 9 yards. Some individuals find mostly dysphoria, nausea and tremors (such as myself it seems) with opioids like Oxycodone which typically have high affinity for kappa receptors compared to other opioids. If you have a dense amount of kappa receptors compared to the next individual, you will be prone to these side effects even more.

I know nearly every individual that ever tried any amount of my suboxone when I had my script that were opioid naive or maybe just havent tried suboxone -- 100% of them got sick and just wanted to lay down and make the feeling go away. When you get used to a specific opioid like suboxone, certain receptors will downregulate and side effects will fade or get better (typically).

Heroin is the most euphoric, for most obvious reasons. It is purely a MOR full agonist and not much for KOR or DOR. Unless somebody has a metabolic allergy, or low MOR density paired with higher KOR density, they are likely to fall in love with it. Even DOR agonists, I believe, are somewhat reinforcing. But not as much as MOR agonists. They also work as negative feedback loops in most cases, so until they figure out how to shut off the negative feedback loops causing down or upregulation of receptors, they will continue to struggle finding an opioid that works for addicts and pain-sufferers alike.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I have a weird body chemistry & can feel 10mg of hydro ontop of bupe.
It's blunted a bit of course.
But I've always found that I'm able to feel hydrocodone, heroin & tramadol ontop of bupe.
I think maybe my body eliminates bupe pretty quick though considering I've been on it so long.

It’s same for me (bupe not used much or often) and my ex (was on bupe all the time). Honestly I thought most people get some effects when using other opiates on top of bupe (if they are not using huge doses of it).

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

It’s same for me (bupe not used much or often) and my ex (was on bupe all the time). Honestly I thought most people get some effects when using other opiates on top of bupe (if they are not using huge doses of it).

I thought so too.

As long as you're not taking giant doses of bupe, I figured most everyone could feel other opioids ontop of it.
I've been dealing with severe depression the past few years & even just 10-20mg of hydrocodone completely lifted my depression last winter, better than bupe, better than any SSRI's or any other psychiatric drug.

Of course I'd be in withdrawal 4-6hrs later already though usually.

It also felt some times like even when I was on a full agonist, my body still craved/needed bupe to feel totally normal. I don't know why. As you'd think a full agonist would cover that but it doesn't always. I wonder if bupe affects way more than just opioid receptors. It's an odd feeling to feel high on a full agonist, but also feel like you're in withdrawal from bupe at the same time lol.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I also feel like bupe is a quite “dirty” drug. And met quite a few people who find WDs from it worse, or even much worse than from H and some even than with methadone. How that makes sense if some other underlying mechanism of action isn’t present? Only thing I can think of, is that it’s given in far too big doses. But while I’m positive that’s a big part of problem, your experience with WDs from bupe, even when supplementing other opiod, points in direction that too big dose isn’t a whole problem.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I also feel like bupe is a quite “dirty” drug. And met quite a few people who find WDs from it worse, or even much worse than from H and some even than with methadone. How that makes sense if some other underlying mechanism of action isn’t present? Only thing I can think of, is that it’s given in far too big doses. But while I’m positive that’s a big part of problem, your experience with WDs from bupe, even when supplementing other opiod, points in direction that too big dose isn’t a whole problem.

I know bupe hits the ORL-1/TOLL-Like Receptor & nociceptive receptors. I think more so in higher doses though.

I don't know much about these receptors, so I'm not sure if withdrawal is possible from it.
Maybe it is though, like if your body is used to these receptors being blocked or activated & then suddenly not.
I think most other opioids like heroin, morphine, hydros & all that don't have actions at any of the ORL or TOLL receptors.
I could be wrong though. Maybe some one with more knowledge on these receptors could jump in and say if it's possible.

I'm sure high doses also plays a role.
Even if you take small doses every day, it still builds up over time.
And technically bupe will keep attaching to and partially activating all of your receptors until every receptor is completely blocked.

Where as a full agonist will only activate a small subset of them & if you tried to block them all with a full agonist, you'd die.
So maybe the withdrawal is due to having only a few receptors agonized by the full agonist, while the rest (that are normally being partially agonized) are screaming for more bupe.
Bupe affects a lot more than just opioid receptors, so that's probably why it's so "dirty" feeling.



Here it says it has much more than just opioid receptor action.

Anesthesiology

pubs.asahq.org

"However, this drug is also a full agonist at the NOP receptor (Kumar et al., 2014). The NOP receptor, encoded by the OPRL1 gene, is a member of the opioid family of G protein-coupled receptors but is not activated by classical opioids with known abuse liability

Frontiers | Buprenorphine Exposure Alters the Development and Migration of Interneurons in the Cortex

The misuse of opioids has reached epidemic proportions over the last decade, with over 2.1 million people in the United States suffering from substance use d...

www.frontiersin.org

Damn, the more I read about long term bupe use, the worse it sounds. Seems to lead to all kinds of shit that you wouldn't get from being on a full agonist. From lower dopamine to worsening depression & anxiety.
Not to mention partial agonists also increase cerebral spinal fluid pressure & can lead to strokes & brain bleeding & all that. How lovely. Even heroin doesn't have any of these properties, but bupe is definitely "safer". *eye roll* Or maybe Big Pharma & the government wanna keep people dependent on a drug that will eventually kill them through mechanisms that even "dangerous" full agonists don't have, after they've made a buck off that person's dependence & struggle. Fuckin' pigs.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Well most (all?) drugs affect G protein-coupled receptors, I think. I’m sure someone will clarify us how much different is bupe from “classic” opiods but sole fact that it’s mixed agonist-antagonist hitting whole range of opiod receptors makes it “dirtier” than classic opiod agonists. Only good thing that comes from that is fact that it’s harder to OD. Opiod receptor antagonists come with their own side-effect profile; and those aren’t nearly as investigated as side-effects of opiod agonists as it’s rare that someone takes them for years or decades while there are milions of people who have prescribed classic opiods for pain or whatever.

I’m quite sure bupe will be (as a matter of fact it is already in some countries) banned cuz it’s simply a shitty medicine (only good in patches for pain imo), but that’ll take quite a bit cuz there’s a shitton of money made from it. As soon as someone finds a better (but also “non abusable” and OD-proof and profitable) drug to be made from thebaine, bupe will be discontinued cuz of side-effects and dangers of prolonged use.

 

[thurston]

I take a 16th of an 8mg (i know, it's so small) and I still feel withdrawal around day 4. I'm trying to find that right dose to jump off. Good luck.

I got down to 1/32 taken as late in the evening as I could stand the withdrawals . That would allow me to sleep and get most of the work day over before wd would start linking in. When I finally got down to zero sub, I had mild wd for a month. It really sucks but you improve on a weekly basis.

 

[AlsoTapered]

I think it's simply a matter of tolerance. Buprenorphine is still MANY times stronger. Am I correct in thinking hydrocodone is usually in a compound medication i.e. mixed with paracetamol (acetaminophen), ibuprofen or aspirin?

 

[chicken hoagie]

I know bupe hits the ORL-1/TOLL-Like Receptor & nociceptive receptors. I think more so in higher doses though.

I don't know much about these receptors, so I'm not sure if withdrawal is possible from it.
Maybe it is though, like if your body is used to these receptors being blocked or activated & then suddenly not.
I think most other opioids like heroin, morphine, hydros & all that don't have actions at any of the ORL or TOLL receptors.
I could be wrong though. Maybe some one with more knowledge on these receptors could jump in and say if it's possible.

I'm sure high doses also plays a role.
Even if you take small doses every day, it still builds up over time.
And technically bupe will keep attaching to and partially activating all of your receptors until every receptor is completely blocked.

Where as a full agonist will only activate a small subset of them & if you tried to block them all with a full agonist, you'd die.
So maybe the withdrawal is due to having only a few receptors agonized by the full agonist, while the rest (that are normally being partially agonized) are screaming for more bupe.
Bupe affects a lot more than just opioid receptors, so that's probably why it's so "dirty" feeling.



Here it says it has much more than just opioid receptor action.

Anesthesiology

pubs.asahq.org

"However, this drug is also a full agonist at the NOP receptor (Kumar et al., 2014). The NOP receptor, encoded by the OPRL1 gene, is a member of the opioid family of G protein-coupled receptors but is not activated by classical opioids with known abuse liability

Frontiers | Buprenorphine Exposure Alters the Development and Migration of Interneurons in the Cortex

The misuse of opioids has reached epidemic proportions over the last decade, with over 2.1 million people in the United States suffering from substance use d...

www.frontiersin.org

Damn, the more I read about long term bupe use, the worse it sounds. Seems to lead to all kinds of shit that you wouldn't get from being on a full agonist. From lower dopamine to worsening depression & anxiety.
Not to mention partial agonists also increase cerebral spinal fluid pressure & can lead to strokes & brain bleeding & all that. How lovely. Even heroin doesn't have any of these properties, but bupe is definitely "safer". *eye roll* Or maybe Big Pharma & the government wanna keep people dependent on a drug that will eventually kill them through mechanisms that even "dangerous" full agonists don't have, after they've made a buck off that person's dependence & struggle. Fuckin' pigs.

That is the unique thing about pharmacology. Every drug will always have 'slightly' different effects, no matter what, because it HAS to, being it is not EXACTLY that same molecule. I think we must always remember this, and that as addicts, whatever our drug of choice is, making a switch to a different drug will always be a gamble on either causing "better" pleasure that satisfies beyond what our previous brain's needs were' or they will fail to supersede the neurotransmitter and receptor agonism/antagonism needs to feel "normal" or "good" whether the drug is manmade or natural, our body hardly ever knows a real difference..in fact, it technically never does.

 

[MadHatterMike]

Hi all..I'm having a similar problem..was on Suboxone then generic Subutex tablets 8mg 3-4 times a day daily for 10 years and I've been off of them after a short taper down for a week or two went thru the bad withdrawal and it's been 38 days and I still can't feel hydros I've got since I decided to get off the subs was too sedated all day to do anything so I figured for me it was to many cons and less pros. So I've tried since about a few days off until now and still can't feel even a change and I've got the hydros from two different sources and both are legit. Up to 4 a day 10s no idea how much longer it could be and before on subs when I took any other opiate I could tell for sure and nothing so far.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

32mg is a huge dose. Wait for a few months.

 

[MadHatterMike]

Well thank you for taking the time to reply...was wondering if anyone has had the same problem with that amount of time passed since stopping since all the literature on it is just 15 days for 5 half lives but idk if that is with the stacking or not. Also another day and still nothing..the tabs are helping with the withdrawal or no energy anyways but no actual feeling of euphoria again.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

You keep taking hydros and expect it’ll one day by magic kick in? Abstain from all opiods for a few months, take it than & enjoy.

Being so fucked up after years on 32mg of bupe isn’t weird, that’s what it supposed to do when used in such way, so you don’t take something that feels good and get back to scary street or something.

 

[MadHatterMike]

Ok..I'll try to take a break a while but honestly it's been hard just to roll outta bed without anything and ya I've done it since several days but with everything just the actual being able to function and do things I have to do. Again thank you for taking the time to give any info I appreciate it..been fighting the urge to get back on subs the whole time since it would be the only thing to break through in my case anyways since I don't do much else nowdays..was most of everything alcohol..extc..methadone..meth..perc..darvacete..sorry for the horrible spelling.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

No need to thank me. And you spelling is fine.

If hydro doesn’t do nothing at all it’s certainly better to pause it totally. If you feel at least some relief than cut the dose by half, third or more to whatever is the bare minimum you can manage and than stay on that dose for as long. But after months, when you take a full dose, don’t expect that good feeling will last as long as when you started doing it, tolerance will kick in fast and soon you’ll need a big dose again so less addictive, non opiod things might be better idea long term.

On the positive side, just because of stopping bupe you’ll feel better sober than on bupe if you manage to wait for long enough.

Do you exercise, eat well, take supplements? Things like going to nature might sound like something that can’t touch your situation but it isn’t like that. Going to a walk in woods or for a swim or just being in the sun will help you.