Boiling salvia extracts in propylene glycol/DMSO and filtering for plugging

[psood0nym]

Salvia has been around for years now yet all we have is expensive slow-to-come-on alcohol-based tinctures that we have to hold in our mouths for a long time and hyper potent smokable extracts. There must be a middle ground, a way to slow salvia down while still getting a visionary experience. According to this paper:

Salvinorin A was not soluble in 100% propylene glycol to our surprise. However, solubility increased in propylene glycol by adding increasing concentrations of DMSO. A 9:1 mixture ended up being suitable for our studies and did not interfere with analgesia on its own.

Propylene glycol and DMSO are cheap and readily available. So, why hasn't anybody simply boiled some of the salvia extract they bought at a head shop in such a solution, filtered it, and put the result up their butts to see what happens?

Rectal absorption should be far more intense and reliable than buccal, plus you wouldn't have to hold anything in your mouth, which is an annoying distraction. Just up the butt with it and forget it. Isn't that easier? Hell, somebody at DMT-Nexus used their spit to make a successful salvia enema. While I understand you'd be hard pressed to sell salvia extracts in little bottles of propylene glycol/DMSO/salvinorin A that people would buy and squirt up their ass holes I can't see why it wouldn't work beautifully in the privacy of the kitchen chemist's home.

Is there some reason this would not or does not work? If it does work, where are the reports?

 

[sekio]

why not sublingual acetone tinctures

 

[psood0nym]

^So you're saying it's completely ineffective? I point you to the article's conclusion:

Fuck the acetone tinctures... just get a bong and smoke the
shit.” Which is a wisdom, it seems, that everyone
else figured out long ago

Well, that's why I asked. The spit on it idea worked for the DMT-Nexus people, and this seemed more practical and I haven't seen it suggested elsewhere. I thought maybe it was possible somebody hadn't thought to boil their salvia in 9:1 proplene glycol: DMSO solution and squirt it up their ass already (or if they had maybe they just didn't report it). I must be out of the loop.

 

[sekio]

The principle is still sound, even if the poor guy was using extracts devoid of salvinorin A...

On a more general note, there's no reason plugging it wouldn't work either. Maybe you could form a microemulsion.

 

[Solipsis]

Have you considered a cyclodextrin derivative as surfactant? I just suggested trying HPBCD for salvinorin in another thread. Where you want to squirt it is up to you of course...
I guess it would be quite valuable if someone tested all the mentioned techniques with the same salvia source for proper comparison.

 

[Dr Mamba]

The salvinorin transdermal problem is very closed to the canabinoide's.
You can schew weed, you'll get no effect.
If you eat weed or hashish without any fat, you'll get no effect, same with synthetics canabiboids i guess...

To be absorbe oraly, it have to be solved in some oil.
Probleme with salvinorine is that its destroy by digestive enzyme ( saliva ?) like DMT is.
My bet is that anybody that have some synthetic cannabinoide can help with the sublingual salvinorin research.

To test a solvant, disolve cannabinoide in it, let it stay 15 mnt in the month than spit and rince month.
If you can get a resulte, i bet it would work for salvinorin.

You get no result in making an acetone solution of natural cannabis oil and put it sublingual because the acetone dissolve instantly in saliva, and the canabis just précipitate in the mouth without crossing the sublingual skin.

 

[psood0nym]

The principle is still sound, even if the poor guy was using extracts devoid of salvinorin A...

On a more general note, there's no reason plugging it wouldn't work either. Maybe you could form a microemulsion.

Oh. It didn't seem like that's what you were insinuating by the content of the paper. I see. By far the easiest thing is just to boil a salvia extract that you've smoked before and know is strong already. That's what I was thinking about doing, I just don't have propylene glycol, though that's easy to get. I suppose acetone tinctures are worth a shot, but it still has the drawbacks I mention below.

Where you want to squirt it is up to you of course...

Well, there's tons of discussion about how to get things to work sublingually already, very little about how to make plugging work better, and the paper already indicates 9:1 propylene glycol: DMSO is effective as a solvent.

I have no idea why anyone would hold a nasty tasting perhaps painful sublingual tincture in their mouth when they could just get over their abject terror of their own assholes like rational people and see the clear utility of plugging (unless they had a medical problem, which very few do). I mean, with buccal you can't talk or swallow while a burning solution fills you mouth with saliva for like 20 minutes. Plugging typically only hurts insecure people's pride and has a far more rapid onset than buccal, making it theoretically possible for a lot of the people who weren't able to get that much off of tinctures to experience a slower more contemplation friendly trip (relative to smoking) from an astonishingly psychoactive drug that really has no substitute. Plugging salvia could similarly be to vaporized salvia what ayahuasca is to vaporized DMT. Buccal stands little chance of absorbing salvinorin A as quickly as plugging and so simply doesn't have near the experiential potential or utility. IMing pure salvinorin A is the only other route of administration that is as promising in this regard, and that's not an option for many, nor is it as cheap or easy.

I assume just 1 part in 9 DMSO will be diluted enough so as not to risk discomfort, though some of that sore throat numbing spray could be mixed in to alleviate it just in case (probably best to test it out on its own once first, as I imagine going on an intense extended salvia journey with a burning ass being quite unpleasant).

 

[Solipsis]

You're preaching to the choir, man.

Dr. Mamba raises an interesting point by the way: it is worth knowing what kind of enzymes degrade or metabolize salvinorin and where they are.
- If they are extracted along, then time is precious and you don't want to leave your salvinorin sitting in solution too long. We see that with psilocybin mushrooms apparently.
- If it is enzymes in saliva (salvia is not misspelled here for a change!), then plugging could be the solution although I don't know what kind of enzymes live in our assholes...
- If it is just metabolic enzymes in our bodies like the cytochrome P450 types, it may be that with salvia you want to deliver as much as possible before too much is broken down to elevate peak plasma levels enough - kind of like the DMT blast you get with smoking, only we cannot just inhibit the enzymes with MAOIs. Still that doesn't quite explain why tincture can work.

 

[psood0nym]

^Agreed. Plugging a low volume should entail rapid absorption and minimal time for bodily enzymes to metabolize salvinorin A. If plugging worked for the DMT-Nexus person using spit though I don't see why the proposed solution would be any more problematic. Spit contains enzymes that may break down the goodies so the propylene glycol/DMSO solution may be superior. It may even be OK for storage under the right conditions (frozen or with the addition of bactereostatic water).

 

[Magickduck]

plugging salvia, eh? jeez man, that'd be... an experiance..

 

[Dr Mamba]

So main problem is to find a salvinorin solvent that :
- cross the skin (propylene glycol dont )
- dont dessolve well in water so that salvinorin dont précipitate in month in sublingual/other wet holes methode

My guess is that pluging works better than sublingual because there is less water in rectum than in mouth.

So salvinorin dont solve well in :
- staigth apolar
- polar solvent

It nead a solvent in between with some oxygene :
- alcool dissolve salvinorine rather well
- ketone dissolve salvinorine very well
- i bet aldehydes are in between

So you have to find a solvant that have kenone and :
- dont dissolve in water well ( dont let salvinorine precipitate in the water in mouth or rectum)
- dont be to bulk to cross the skin

The one i think of are the essencial oils, that cross the skin very well and dont dissolve in water.
The essencial oils that contain the most kenones are eucalyptus, carvi, sage and rosmarin oils.

Anyone to test that ?
- take some 10X, 20X salvia
- put some drops of eucalyptus oil
- wait for salvinorin to dissolve (perhaps gentle warm, perhaps one dorp of acetone may help)
- dry some place in your mouth between teeth and lips with tissue
- drop the mixt salvia/eucalyptus there (may hurt :D )
- wait and try to not alow saliva to go there

 

[psood0nym]

^

Propylene glycol is a solvent in many pharmaceuticals, including oral, injectable and topical formulations, such as for diazepam and lorazepam that are insoluble in water, use propylene glycol as a solvent in their clinical, injectable forms.[7]

I'm not sure what you mean about it not crossing the skin. Regardless, the skin isn't important since the only thing relevant to the feasibility of the proposal is whether 9:1 propylene glycol: DSMO with salvinorin A dissolved in it will pass through the rectum, which is far more absorbent than skin. Even freebase tryptamines have been reported as absorbing effectively rectally. Plus DSMO should enhance absorption. If it worked dissolved in spit as reported I don't see why it wouldn't in the proposed solvent, which has already been reported in the literature as effective for dissolving salvinorin A.

plugging salvia, eh? jeez man, that'd be... an experiance..

Yes, presumably with slower a onset, less potency, and longer duration than smoking but substantially faster onset, greater potency, and shorter duration than buccal. That's why I think it's worth doing. It may be a distinct experience with its own experiential virtues.

 

[Dr Mamba]

I said skin because i didnt know the english word for "muqueuse", from dictionary its " mucous membrane".
In the scientist abstract, the purpus of 9:1 propylene glycol: DSMO was to alow the salvinorin to be inject.
So the solvent have to dissolve salvinorin and the solvant have to disolve in water to dissolve in blood, and therfore form a very thin salvinorin suspention in blood.
If you look for rectal, you dont bother the solvent to be water soluble, but you have to find a solvent that can help salvinorin to be absob through the mucous membrane.
Some free base and other non soluble stuff can cross the mucous membrane, some dont.
And as salvinorin have very short half life, it should be absob very effectively to have an effect.

THC dont penetrate the skin, so you can only get it into the body with :
- vaporisation : very thin particule in contact to the blood in the pulmonary vessels
- dissolve in fat, then eat it : after the stomac, the fat is emulsion in very thin particules of fat that is absorbe here in the early intestin
- dissolve the THC in something like 9:1 propylene glycol: DSMO, or an emusioner and inject
but this formula dont alow THC to pass the mucous membrane, and i bet the same with salvinorin.

 

[psood0nym]

^I see. Well, propylene glycol both dissolves and helps drugs like benzos and ibuprophen absorb through the skin, though I'm not sure how effectively. I'm sure it would help these same drugs absorb through the rectum more effectively, though I'm just basing that on the fact that the rectum is far more absorbent than skin. I'm not sure about salvinorin A, but the thing is ethanol dissolves salvinorin A and helps it absorb through the tissues in the mouth in a way that's effective enough to feel subjectively (at least for some people), so I'd think another solvent that dissolves salvinorin A would carry it through the rectal wall at least as effectively as ethanol carries it through the tissues of the mouth, especially with the addition of DMSO, which most definitely absorbs through the skin and mucous membranes.

You may be right just the same, but I've got a small amount of propylene glycol on the way and I've already got DSMO so I can test it myself.

 

[Dr Mamba]

Well, IMO this formula will be as effective as alcool, alowing salvinorin to dispers in very thin particle an therfore increasing chance of absorbtion.
I've alwready test salvinorin in propylene glycol ( cant get DMSO) for sublingual with no result.
DMSO may be different as it facilitate the crossing through mucous membrane, looking forward your trip report.

 

[Deinonychus]

...could just get over their abject terror of their own assholes like rational people and see the clear utility of plugging...

I'm not trying to derail this thread here, but I'd just like to point out that some people simply don't enjoy plugging. I see this very often, where plugging advocates either preach that people who won't plug are either irrational, or worse and more often, homophobic in some way.

It just doesn't work like that. There are plenty of folks who simply choose not to use that ROA for a myriad of reasons. I have tried it many times. I admit that I never got the technique down, because there was always leakage, or even sometimes it didn't even all get inside in the first place. But I would have persisted in perfecting my technique in order to use a very useful ROA – fast absorption, no first-pass metabolism, increased bioavailability, etc – except that the sensation of pushing even a small needle-less syringe into my anus was just not pleasant.

Am I irrational? No more so than any other human being. Am I a homophobe? Nope, I tried being bi when I was young and slutty since that would equal twice as many potential sex partners. But just as with plugging, I found I did not enjoy kissing or engaging in sex acts with other men, it didn't appeal to me and my body and mind sent me signals saying 'Nope, sorry, nice try but no cigar.'

Again I'm not trying to digress and derail this thread at all, and I'm definitely not trying to start a fight. I just felt like chiming in to point out that some people are perfectly open and comfortable with the idea of plugging, but for one reason or another find it unpleasant or unnecessary. Do I push that opinion on other people? Hell no. But just because my personal choice is to not plug doesn't mean I'm somehow less rational, less intelligent, closed-minded, or homophobic.

A counter-example is using drugs with needles. I chose to IV or IM (sterile medical preparations only on the IM) drugs, not just the heroin I use every day as an addict and junkie but also other compounds than can be easily taken orally or nasally. A lot of people would choose not to do this. Some of them wouldn't do it due to stigma, that being akin to hating on plugging due to it being anus-related or 'gay'.

But there's also tons of people who would recognize that IV and IM use has benefits just like plugging. The same benefits, at that: increased bioavailability, faster onset, skip first-pass metabolism, etc. But, those people may still choose not to use needles just as a personal choice, despite the benefits and the possibility to be completely safe about it if the proper procedures are followed. That's their choice, and I wouldn't deride them for it any more than I would wish derision to be cast upon myself for not plugging.

Anyway, that's all, we now return to regularly scheduled programming!

 

[psood0nym]

I'm not trying to derail this thread here, but I'd just like to point out that some people simply don't enjoy plugging. I see this very often, where plugging advocates either preach that people who won't plug are either irrational, or worse and more often, homophobic in some way.

It just doesn't work like that. There are plenty of folks who simply choose not to use that ROA for a myriad of reasons. I have tried it many times. I admit that I never got the technique down, because there was always leakage, or even sometimes it didn't even all get inside in the first place. But I would have persisted in perfecting my technique in order to use a very useful ROA – fast absorption, no first-pass metabolism, increased bioavailability, etc – except that the sensation of pushing even a small needle-less syringe into my anus was just not pleasant.

Am I irrational? No more so than any other human being. Am I a homophobe? Nope, I tried being bi when I was young and slutty since that would equal twice as many potential sex partners. But just as with plugging, I found I did not enjoy kissing or engaging in sex acts with other men, it didn't appeal to me and my body and mind sent me signals saying 'Nope, sorry, nice try but no cigar.'

Again I'm not trying to digress and derail this thread at all, and I'm definitely not trying to start a fight. I just felt like chiming in to point out that some people are perfectly open and comfortable with the idea of plugging, but for one reason or another find it unpleasant or unnecessary. Do I push that opinion on other people? Hell no. But just because my personal choice is to not plug doesn't mean I'm somehow less rational, less intelligent, closed-minded, or homophobic.

A counter-example is using drugs with needles. I chose to IV or IM (sterile medical preparations only on the IM) drugs, not just the heroin I use every day as an addict and junkie but also other compounds than can be easily taken orally or nasally. A lot of people would choose not to do this. Some of them wouldn't do it due to stigma, that being akin to hating on plugging due to it being anus-related or 'gay'.

But there's also tons of people who would recognize that IV and IM use has benefits just like plugging. The same benefits, at that: increased bioavailability, faster onset, skip first-pass metabolism, etc. But, those people may still choose not to use needles just as a personal choice, despite the benefits and the possibility to be completely safe about it if the proper procedures are followed. That's their choice, and I wouldn't deride them for it any more than I would wish derision to be cast upon myself for not plugging.

Anyway, that's all, we now return to regularly scheduled programming!

I just clip the needle off of an insulin syringe, file down the edges, and never plug more than 1 mL of fluid. I hardly feel a thing. It's smooth, cylindrical, and about 0.5 cm in diameter depositing less than 1 mL of fluid in there. Every person on the planet shits out enormously greater diameters and volumes regularly, even infants, so I confess I have no appreciation of your discomfort. I know people report plugging multiple mL but I have no idea why they do it when nowhere near that much is necessary for most compounds. They're not thinking it through and are making things far more uncomfortable than they need to be. If you insufflate compounds when the sort of painless nearly effortless plugging like I've described is an option for you, then you're enduring nasal pain and congestion as well as risking potential damage to your sense of smell. That's (part of) what I think is irrational.

Clearly, though, if it causes you some great discomfort it's not something I'd recommend you do. Why would I tell people "Do something that is terribly uncomfortable for you to do and if you don't you're irrational?" There's no sense in that. It's only irrational if the source of your discomfort is something like social stigma or homophobia, which can be surmounted by making a virtuous change in perspective. Obviously I don't mean to take a jab at people who legitimately have especially sensitive or ticklish butt holes or whatever your medical reasons are (it's hard to imagine what else it could be if not one of these ...). Let it be known to all Bluelighters who suffer this malady: if your butt hole is extra ticklish, I, psood0nym, intend no affront to your sensibilities.