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Benzos Better every day 4 vodka vs benzos? severe depression from 5 years benzo use

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I wrote this in response to your other threads concerning your 3-MMC usage, although I believe everything my post is correct even when applied to this matter. You use close to ~500mg of 3-MMC on most days and then wonder why you have to use various medications to knock yourself out and why you have suicidal thoughts....?

Student76, this is not a personal attack but you need to put some critical thought into this situation. After reading your three (possibly more) different threads about this specific matter I have some commentary/feedback. You continually ask for advice, and then proceed to dismiss any advice given to you as unscientific after you make completely off the wall claims (I need more dopamine and serotonin, X drugs don't work, I need X drug to function normally). Those who have responded to you obviously took the time to type out thoughtful and coherent responses, and you simply dismiss their commentary at face value. Why even seek advice if you will not logically analyze the pros and cons about what effect your actions will have on your body for the remainder of your life?

Here's the main problem that I see: you are continually justifying your own drug use over and over and over. This is seemingly fueled by your supposed knowledge about pharmacology, psychiatry, and chemistry. You claim to study pharmacology and fail to recognize that 5-HT2B agonism is directly linked to heart problems? I find something odd here, you should be careful and skeptical about what you put into your body, not seeking other drugs to use to combat your problems (4-FA, 6/5-AP(D)B, the FMA series, MDPV, etc.). This especially goes for drugs with a short history of usage in humans, little research into their metabolites/mechanisms of action, and no established safety profile.

I find this to be highly reckless and irresponsible, it's almost as if you have no regard for what you are potentially doing to yourself. Maybe you don't care, but from my point of view you are biased and dismiss all evidence so you can justify what you believe is right. I have noted it time and time again as I have followed the development of your post(s) on this subject. I believe you are playing with fire, it's only a matter of time before you get burned. I have been following this thread and began to construct arguments with evidence debunking several claims you have made in this thread, but I believe that would be a fruitless effort. I do not believe you can analyze evidence contrary to your opinions in any way. You are extremely dismissive and headstrong, I am not quite sure whether or not you are consciously aware of this.

I ask that you critically examine your beliefs and thoughts, put them aside, read my comment, and then reread all of the advice that former bluelighters have offered you. If you cannot do this, or simply refuse to do so, I do not know of a way that I or anyone else can assist you. Your behaviors and actions are extremely concerning and are damaging, it is readily apparent. I really do hope you can take a step back and consider what is happening before you irreparably harm yourself and are forced to live with the consequences. To quote Alexander Shulgin, “You must be careful because sometimes you bend something that doesn’t unbend.” I ask that you question your behavior and critically analyze the advice you have been given, I wish you the best possible outcome with regard to the matter at hand.
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Student76 said:
Hello.

Sorry if my english is not perfect.I am from Sweden.

I am 29 and was prescribed Bromazepam(long acting) 5 years ago for sleep problems and severe anxiety.
SSRI had noch effect on me,so many other antidepressiva the docs tried on me.
I study chemistry so I know a lot about pharmakologie.

At first 6 mg help for 2 years perfect.
Then i had to up the dose.5 years later i need 18 mg(= 40 mg diazepam) to have any effect.
Since then every evening I am very depressed.The last month its extrem severe.
If i reduce dose I cant sleep,and after 3 days of zero sleep i have to take the higher amount(18mg) again.

I tried diazepam(more depression),alprazolam(no sleep),clonazepam (more depression),oxazepam (no sleep),Z-drugs (more depression)

I have often suicide thoughts the last month,an if I reduce the dose I cant sleep.Befor benzos I often could not sleep.
So the question is are there any benzos,that help for sleep and dont make me depressed the day after.
Seroquel or Mirtazapine are no option for me,because I cant tolerate them.

I tried Chloralhydrate,which was very weak and again no sleep.
One doc said drink 4 wodka.I dont know.If i drink the next day I feel unable to work.
Is this a solution to drink or does anyone know a better benzo?

I read hear perhaps nitrazepam or flurazepam?or do they cause depression too?
I think I need a benzo because antidepressiva never worked for me.
And anything with histmin blocking action is making me also depressed the next day.

So is there any benzodiazepin for sleep without depression the next day or do they loose the effect for sleep no matter what type of benzo?
Then better every day alkohol?

Thank you very much.

Sjögren
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Hi Student76 and welcome to Bluelight!

Don't worry about your English my friend, it is much better than my Swedish!

First of all, I know exactly how you feel, and so do a lot of other Bluelight users on this forum - a lot of us have been in your position before, whilst either using or abusing Benzodiazepines, so you are definitely not alone. Also, we have definitely had some other members come to Bluelight for help with much, much, worse Benzodiazepine or other Drug related addiction/abuse/insomnia/rebound/withdrawal symptoms/nasty problems - so do not worry!

As for the potency of Bromazepam to Diazepam:
Source 1) States that 6mg Bromazepam ~ 10-12mg of Diazepam
Source 2) States that 6mg Bromazepam ~ 10-12mg of Diazepam (Cited from Professor C. Ashton's Benzodiazepine Manual.)
Source 3) States that 6mg Bromazepam ~ 12mg of Diazepam
Source 4) States that 6mg Bromazepam ~ 12mg of Diazepam
Source 5) States that 6mg Bromazepam ~ 12mg of Diazepam

So it's safe to say that from the above sources, 6mg Bromazepam ~ 10-12mg of Diazepam.

However, with regards to your current situation, do you mind if I ask you a few more questions in order to get a better understanding of what help you may need?

1) What other relevant medications do you currently take, on a regular basis?

2) What other relevant medications do you currently take, but on an irregular basis? So, drugs that you only take 'now and then' (say within a 2 week period)?

3) Why you were prescribed Bromazepam 5 years ago - as opposed to a more common Benzodiazepine, such as Diazepam, or a Z-Drug, such as Zolpidem? Why was it Bromazepam?

4) Did you try any other Benzodiazepines before Bromazepam?

5) Did you try any Z-Drugs before Bromazepam? Such as Zaleplon, Zolpidem or Zopiclone?

6) Can you tell us some more about all of the SSRIs that you have tried. Specifically: the doses you took, why you stopped taking them, or why you felt that they did not work for you?

7) Can you tell us about any other 'anti-depressants' that you also tried? Again, including the doses you took, why you stopped taking them, or why you felt that they did not work
for you?

8) Did the doctor who gave you the Bromazepam explain to you that it is for short-term use only? Generally 2-6 weeks maximum. Using it everyday for 5 years is... wow. I'm not surprised you're having problems now.

9) To your question 'are there any benzos,that help for sleep and dont make me depressed the day after?' - The answer is yes, possibly. But not to be used for more than 6 weeks maximum. You just can't take Benzodiazepines and Z drugs chronically. They should only be used in instances of acute intervention, or used pro re nata, but sparingly.

10) What dose of Seroquel or Mirtazapine did you use? And why could you not tolerate them?

11) And no. Alcohol is certainly not the answer. It will definitely send you to sleep sooner, but it definitely wont allow you to fall into the deeper sleep that your body need for body regeneration. Plus, evidence shows that it can also induce insomnia after chronic use.

There is absolutely NO benzodiazepine drug that you can safely take long term and not suffer from its' consequences later on. You will get addicted to it.

You need to quit with the Benzo's and look at viable, long term, solutions such as TCAs like Amitriptyline, Doxepin, and Nortriptyline or maybe try Trazodone which is a potent and sedating antidepressant, or even try Agomelatine which has proven efficacy for mimicking Melatonin and re-setting your circadian sleep rhythms.

Benzodiazepines will honestly get you nowhere with prolonged use, and most of them (apart from Temazepam) will actually interfere with your sleep and result in a poor nights sleep.



Samm2 sums it up nicely below:

samm2 said:
"Then i had to up the dose.5 years later i need 18 mg (=40 mg diazepam) to have any effect."

That there was your mistake, not to mention taking the stuff every day....Whenever you feel you have to up the dose, no matter what, the red light should be flashing in your head. You made a mistake, thankyou for telling so others don't make the same mistake. Benzos are not sustainable....etiz helps me sleep but NOT EVERY DAY use thankyou. I learned the hard way with alcohol, another useful substance helping sleep, but NOT EVERY DAY. Period. It doesn't work that way. Period.

Good Luck.
Click to expand...
 
I am addicted.I never sleept befor and always was a mess without sleep.I will not stop them.They help even after 10 years.
Thousand times better then without sleep.I only thought perhaps taking something like nitrazepam 5mg is better than 18 mg Bromazepam.
Z-Drugs my prof said are for people that are beyond brain dead:-)
 
The same thing may Dr.Prof.Pharm said about Mirtazapine or Seroquel.
Only mega strong H1 Blockers.The next day you will be a mess.Forget it.
There is no one with a basic of pharmacologie in this forum.
 
See below
Student76, this is not a personal attack but you need to put some critical thought into this situation. After reading your three (possibly more) different threads about this specific matter I have some commentary/feedback. You continually ask for advice, and then proceed to dismiss any advice given to you as unscientific after you make completely off the wall claims (I need more dopamine and serotonin, X drugs don't work, I need X drug to function normally). Those who have responded to you obviously took the time to type out thoughtful and coherent responses, and you simply dismiss their commentary at face value. Why even seek advice if you will not logically analyze the pros and cons about what effect your actions will have on your body for the remainder of your life?

Here's the main problem that I see: you are continually justifying your own drug use over and over and over. This is seemingly fueled by your supposed knowledge about pharmacology, psychiatry, and chemistry. You claim to study pharmacology and fail to recognize that 5-HT2B agonism is directly linked to heart problems? I find something odd here, you should be careful and skeptical about what you put into your body, not seeking other drugs to use to combat your problems (4-FA, 6/5-AP(D)B, the FMA series, MDPV, etc.). This especially goes for drugs with a short history of usage in humans, little research into their metabolites/mechanisms of action, and no established safety profile.

I find this to be highly reckless and irresponsible, it's almost as if you have no regard for what you are potentially doing to yourself. Maybe you don't care, but from my point of view you are biased and dismiss all evidence so you can justify what you believe is right. I have noted it time and time again as I have followed the development of your post(s) on this subject. I believe you are playing with fire, it's only a matter of time before you get burned. I have been following this thread and began to construct arguments with evidence debunking several claims you have made in this thread, but I believe that would be a fruitless effort. I do not believe you can analyze evidence contrary to your opinions in any way. You are extremely dismissive and headstrong, I am not quite sure whether or not you are consciously aware of this.

I ask that you critically examine your beliefs and thoughts, put them aside, read my comment, and then reread all of the advice that former bluelighters have offered you. If you cannot do this, or simply refuse to do so, I do not know of a way that I or anyone else can assist you. Your behaviors and actions are extremely concerning and are damaging, it is readily apparent. I really do hope you can take a step back and consider what is happening before you irreparably harm yourself and are forced to live with the consequences. To quote Alexander Shulgin, “You must be careful because sometimes you bend something that doesn’t unbend.” I ask that you question your behavior and critically analyze the advice you have been given, I wish you the best possible outcome with regard to the matter at hand.
Click to expand...
 
There are thounsands of people who take benzodiazpines for there whole live with benefit.Those are the ones not in forums.
 
When you google for: thousands of people take benzodiazepines their whole lives with benefit.
It shows this as top result: http://www.benzo.org.uk/amisc/pfi.pdf
how at least 17,000 people died and thousands more were permanently disabled because of the use of one class of drugs—the benzodiazepines.

Not to say you would die on your prescription, but it is not something you want to take on long term basis as multiple people have already explained.
But you should prioritise what you should do first, perhaps a custom synth Pemoline instead of 3-mmc and then benzo taper or vice versa, I'm not a doctor, but that seems like a logical approach.
 
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Slightly annoyed that I actually bothered to write a response to this question...
 
Nitrazepam is Definitely Toxic I would Try Flurazepam or Brand Name is Dalmane for One I Think Very VERY LONG-ACTING Hypnotic OLD-SCHOOL Sleeper they Barley Prescribe Now.
 
Ok thanks I have no chance to import Pemoline or the money to make my self pemolin in my owne labortoray.Sorry i am not rice:-)
But the adive one benzodiazepines is good.
Well I try to taper or reduce dose the next month and years.I feel also that its more harmfull for my brain than 3MMC because
if i take much benzos my memory (short time) is shutting down.I can not remember things any more.With 3 MMC there was no lose,I find for me a gain.
If i take it the houres after I make longer sentences,write more and so an.Can say this to benzos:)
What what to take for sleep then?Doctors only say seroquel,remergil,doxepin and triziklicy.They help for sleep ok,but next day I am knocked out till 4 PM
My be not every one reacts this way,but i have I high histamin level and perhaps for me those one are so bad for me.
Well 3 MMC works after 3 years this way.First after 100 mg a calm reaktion cames,I get fearless,then I hour later I talk more and am more aktive.
No high at all.This was only at the beginning,it was nice,but faded away.So I think I need some serotonin and also dopamine.
But all SSRI made me extramly brain foggy,crashed my car,If i took sertralin or citalopram after to weeks my mood went down and down.Not up
And I became suicidal the way I am never without meds.Imminst members told me if that happens you have to stopp.
So every brain reacts different.I never expiriencend any activation.Ok nervousness perhaps,but I only wanted to sit on my couch and do nothing.
So the 5 shrinks I visited all said SSRI,Mao,or trikzyklik.Stablon was so week and made me also very nervous not calm.Running thoughts.
Modafinil,well,wide a wake,more body power,but first 200 mg only worked 4 hours,than i had every time an awful crash.Well not so bad like with stims or ritalin,but
with 3 MMC there is no crash at all.I do not understand my brain.It reacts so differently.
I tried coke,I had a crash,and find it only good for ego.I do not need some ego drugs.With 3MMC i am friendly and talk normally,sometimes a bit to much to people.
But the my old self in is a sort of autist typ,no interesset in talking to people,no motivation to do work or study.Very calm introvert.
Can always do the same things.I went to a gym from 16 to 25 and every day made the same exercise.It didn't bore me at all.I didn like groups,hat only one friend at a time
and was an outsider i would say.I always wanted to be like others.

Someone else here in this forum which behaved this way?

Anja

PS what about GBH or distraneurin?chloralhydrate I try was bad.Like a 4 shots wisky,and headache the next day:-)
 
You say Nitrazepam is more toxic to the liver.
Ok this is true.But much stronger on the gaba receptor,so dosage is lower.
Perhaps 5mg nitrazepam do the trick.I need 24 mg bromazepam just to sleep about 8 hours.
Some days without sleep ok.But on some days I have to funktion.

I do not tolerat Z drugs.Chloralhydrat was like whisky.Lormetazepam left me depressed in the morning.
Perhaps Temazepam?Oxazapam (well 50mg) no sleep at all,drunken feeling.
Diazepam,clonazepam,left me depressed in the morning.Alprazolam to short,awake at 5 in morning.
Passionflower,hops,melatonin,well a little little,but no restaurative sleep to be produktive the next day.
So whats left?Temazepam?Nitrazepam(or is this depressing like diazepam)

Thanks Anja
 
L-Tryptophan supplement worked really well for my sleep but of course it isn't a magic bullet so you will have to give it a shot along with making other changes like excercise and eating well + no interference from other medications/chems
 
L-Try,like Melatonin,work three days then i am up till 6 morning again.What for you works does not for others:-)
 
Perhaps you wouldn't have worrisome anxiety and sleep problems if you did not constantly fry your brain with extremely dangerous research chemicals.... food for thought.

All your "insight" about your RC usage not hindering your mental capacity is totally hearsay and cannot be taken as true- as the person themselves really have no awareness in their cognitive function as much as everyone else around them.

I felt fine as a strung out heroin user.... everyone else around me knew that I was not as smart or keen as I was from when I wasn't on the drug.
 
Have you ever tried ambien or something specifically for sleep?

I used to use ativan and klonopin and valiu m and xaxax to help me sleep BUT I find anbien much better
No tolerance issues. Alchohol might work as a bandaid but it disturbs sleep during the night. All benzos can lead to depression. And increased tolerance. There are so many ADs out there. Im sure u b r been on ssris and maybe snris but have you ever considered older drugs like tcas or maoi? Not commonly prescribed since the new ADs came out bc of side effects. I had a tricyclic called elavil pull me out of the worst depression of my life.
GOOD LUCK!!


QUOTE=Student76;12610257]Hello.

Sorry if my english is not perfect.I am from Sweden.

I am 29 and was prescribed Bromazepam(long acting) 5 years ago for sleep problems and severe anxiety.
SSRI had noch effect on me,so many other antidepressiva the docs tried on me.
I study chemistry so I know a lot about pharmakologie.

At first 6 mg help for 2 years perfect.
Then i had to up the dose.5 years later i need 18 mg(= 40 mg diazepam) to have any effect.
Since then every evening I am very depressed.The last month its extrem severe.
If i reduce dose I cant sleep,and after 3 days of zero sleep i have to take the higher amount(18mg) again.

I tried diazepam(more depression),alprazolam(no sleep),clonazepam (more depression),oxazepam (no sleep),Z-drugs (more depression)

I have often suicide thoughts the last month,an if I reduce the dose I cant sleep.Befor benzos I often could not sleep.
So the question is are there any benzos,that help for sleep and dont make me depressed the day after.
Seroquel or Mirtazapine are no option for me,because I cant tolerate them.

I tried Chloralhydrate,which was very weak and again no sleep.
One doc said drink 4 wodka.I dont know.If i drink the next day I feel unable to work.
Is this a solution to drink or does anyone know a better benzo?

I read hear perhaps nitrazepam or flurazepam?or do they cause depression too?
I think I need a benzo because antidepressiva never worked for me.
And anything with histmin blocking action is making me also depressed the next day.

So is there any benzodiazepin for sleep without depression the next day or do they loose the effect for sleep no matter what type of benzo?
Then better every day alkohol?

Thank you very much.

Sjögren[/QUOTE]
 
I think Sekio likes closing threads:-)
Have a nice day sekio and a happy life.
Well you could be a little bit friendlier.But I think its your nature:-)

Your Anja
 
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