Benzo vs Opiate addiction

[drfeelgood1]

I had read here and on many sites that coming off from benzos can be really a nightmare, or more like TORTURE than opiate WDs.
So, I had been thinking or wondering about this all long as to why opiates are only Schedule-2 and benzos are Scheduled-4?
I thought being a Schedule-2 meant that a drug is more addictive than being placed on Schedule-4.

If it is very hard to come off benzos than coming off from opiates, it means to me that benzos are more addictive than being on opiates.
So why are benzos classed as Schedule-4 and not Schedule-2?

 

[Specified]

schedule 2 is less addictive than schedule 4 but I live in a different country to you, obviously.

 

[Keif' Richards]

^When the Controlled Substances Act was originally put in place, it's correct that the system of Schedules/Classes/Grades or what have you are intended to represent various qualities of given drugs such as: medical value and potential application, addictive qualities, physical harm et cetera. However, this is nearly 50 years old now and is widely believed to be flawed through and through. Arbitrary would be the most appropriate term in my opinion.

A lot of what we do here at Bluelight is attempt to deprogram those who have been raised in our system of conservative and unscientific values. LSD is not as dangerous as Methamphetamine. Cannabis will not give you Down's Syndrome. Nobody here has done anything wrong, of course, but if you're looking to really dig in and get a firm grasp in your own respective heads as to how these things work, abandon the CSA 1973. We are all still trying to erase Nixon from our national history.

Benzodiazepines are safer in every way than Opioids, however. So, I suppose we can say that there is some small shred of reason dictating their respective places here. Opioids can kill quite easily. The dosage that one will take in order to get extremely fucked up is generally close to the dosage required to make one stop breathing. Benzodiazepines on the other hand have a remarkably high lethal dosage relative to weight. You are not likely to kill yourself with any quantity of Benzodiazepine as a single agent. That is not to say that Benzodiazepines combined with other central nervous system depressants are not incredibly dangerous and frequent agents of lethal overdose.

Based on this basic information, you can understand why Benzodiazepines might be considered safer than Opioids, but both can be extremely dangerous if used by an irresponsible individual.

Opioid Withdrawal - "Man this is going to be really uncomfortable"

Benzodiazepine Withdrawal - "I feel like my heart is going to explode and a nightmare force is going to devour my soul"

 

[scottmarsh03]

It is very difficult to get rid of any addiction, even if it is an alcohol addiction and not drugs. It is better for us not to know which dependency is worse and, moreover, never to test ourselves.

 

[Keif' Richards]

^Common misconception. I would consider Alcohol to be the most devastating drug known to man. The way in which it is advertised and propagated in our society is a large part of why Alcohol and Alcoholism are so widely accepted in our society. Unfortunately Scott, we are a Harm Reduction community, so we are far past the point of no return in regard to the potential dangers of drug addiction.

I don't understand how one can be satisfied with "not knowing". Our purpose as human beings is to know.

 

[Lucy20]

I have detoxed off both, i would pick opiate wd anyday over benzo wd. Being sick sucks big time but being in a constant state of panic for days dam near drove me suicidal

 

[HoldBack]

^Common misconception. I would consider Alcohol to be the most devastating drug known to man. The way in which it is advertised and propagated in our society is a large part of why Alcohol and Alcoholism are so widely accepted in our society. Unfortunately Scott, we are a Harm Reduction community, so we are far past the point of no return in regard to the potential dangers of drug addiction.

I don't understand how one can be satisfied with "not knowing". Our purpose as human beings is to know.

I go back and forth on this but on the aggregate, alcohol is by far the most destructive substance. For an individual I think heroin is worse.

That is you can be an alcoholic for years and years until your organs begin to fail. It’s very hard to get a more than a few years before ending up in jail or homeless on heroin.

Not to mention the tendency to drive people to suicide. I don’t have any data to support this but I believe many overdoses are intentional suicides or at least complete apathy towards life.

I believe the scheduling is correct. It’s bearlynimpossible to overdose on benzos alone. Not to mention, they are designed to only be taken for maybe a week straight: you aren’t supposed to get addicted to them. And finally, they are not easily abused by anything other than oral administration as they do not have the same
Compulsive edge as heroin/meth/coke. I’d never rob a bank for Xanax money, but I sure as hell have considered it (and done some truly awful things) for Dope money.

 

[Keif' Richards]

You're right. Benzodiazepines are only meant to be prescribed for a few weeks at most outside of other extenuating circumstances, like epilepsy for instance. However Holdback, I have to respectfully disagree with a couple of your points man. Scheduling is absolutely not correct. Cannabis is in Schedule 1 to this very day. The schedule which is reserved for drugs with absolutely no medical use. Heroin is also in this schedule and funny enough, Heroin does indeed have a valid medical application and the only reason it is in Schedule 1 is because of hysteria and public outcry based upon the fallacy that Heroin is somehow more dangerous or addictive than the other Opioids.

Benzodiazepines, however, are not prescribed for a couple weeks at a time. They are almost always prescribed for long-term applications in violation of pretty basic and well-known knowledge regarding their addictive potential. If you don't think Benzodiazepine dependence would cause an individual to do something crazy, you are completely and totally mistaken on this point. Benzodiazepine withdrawal is widely considered to be significantly more brutal than Opioid withdrawal. Benzodiazepine withdrawal also has the potential to be lethal, unlike Opioid withdrawal. There are people withdrawing from Benzo habits at this very moment and believwwe me, they're wishing they had a dick to suck for a Xanax bar.

You mention emotions like apathy. If you want to know the true meaning of apathy, consult with one of the many Americans who have been completely and totally destroyed mentally, physically and spiritually by an irresponsible Benzodiazepine prescription. You aren't "supposed" to get addicted to anything my friend. Sadly, this is just not how the story often goes. Benzodiazepines and Alcohol destroy.

Believe me, Pfizer and Co. are absolutely in love with how the CSA 1973 was constructed and stands to this day.

 

[Jungo871]

Do you think diazepam is a less addictive benzodiazepines than others. I personally find diazepam to be weak in effects but it's the only drug that I need to have. I don't about the opioid side of things been on them but never anything close to a habit apart from codeine. I have had alprazolam which is hard to find in the UK and it was much more sedating than diazepam. I get 30mg of diazepam a day and never abuse it as it doesn't do anything. I've had bad withdrawals from alcohol but would never want BZD withdrawals. I quit cannabis, but I don't crave it the same way as other drugs. I too am on mirtazapine and wouldn't mind mixing it with cannabis as I know mirtazapine can have very mild psychedelic properties

 

[Keif' Richards]

Jungo, what's up dude? Happy to have you here at the forums. In the future, I think you might benefit from creating a new thread if you have a new question, but I definitely see how this is relevant to what we're discussing here, so as beautiful women so often say to me, let's do it!

This is actually fairy simple. You can basically look at all Benzodiazepines as equal in their potential for addiction and dependence. As you mentioned regarding the Alprazolam (Xanax), there are Benzodiazepines with varying durations of action. In general, a shorr duration of action is going to lead to a faster and more intense buzz while sacrificing their duration of action. Alprazolam is oft-desired because of these qualities. However, it's not like an Alprazolam user is not going to accept an equipotent dosage of a longer-acting Benzodiazepine like say, Chlordiazepoxide (Librium). They will take it gladly. They are fairly interchangeable, but just like how Powder Cocaine just isn't enough for one accustomed to Crack Cocaine, the shorter-acting Benzodiazepines will be first-choice, but any Benzo will do.

Diazepam (Valium) would be considered pretty much the middle of the road. It has some active metabolites like Desmethyldiazepam (Nordazepam) that stick around for a long time, but these metabolites are not super plentiful, making Diazepam a moderately-long-acting Benzodiazepine.

Can I ask why you stopped using Cannabis man? It's totally fine if it was a personal choice, but if someone is hassling you over your consumption, tell them to fuck off. Cannabis ultimately helps many reduce/control their usage of other sedative drugs. Get back to me and let me know if I covered everything.

 

[HoldBack]

You're right. Benzodiazepines are only meant to be prescribed for a few weeks at most outside of other extenuating circumstances, like epilepsy for instance. However Holdback, I have to respectfully disagree with a couple of your points man. Scheduling is absolutely not correct. Cannabis is in Schedule 1 to this very day. The schedule which is reserved for drugs with absolutely no medical use. Heroin is also in this schedule and funny enough, Heroin does indeed have a valid medical application and the only reason it is in Schedule 1 is because of hysteria and public outcry based upon the fallacy that Heroin is somehow more dangerous or addictive than the other Opioids.

Benzodiazepines, however, are not prescribed for a couple weeks at a time. They are almost always prescribed for long-term applications in violation of pretty basic and well-known knowledge regarding their addictive potential. If you don't think Benzodiazepine dependence would cause an individual to do something crazy, you are completely and totally mistaken on this point. Benzodiazepine withdrawal is widely considered to be significantly more brutal than Opioid withdrawal. Benzodiazepine withdrawal also has the potential to be lethal, unlike Opioid withdrawal. There are people withdrawing from Benzo habits at this very moment and believwwe me, they're wishing they had a dick to suck for a Xanax bar.

You mention emotions like apathy. If you want to know the true meaning of apathy, consult with one of the many Americans who have been completely and totally destroyed mentally, physically and spiritually by an irresponsible Benzodiazepine prescription. You aren't "supposed" to get addicted to anything my friend. Sadly, this is just not how the story often goes. Benzodiazepines and Alcohol destroy.

Believe me, Pfizer and Co. are absolutely in love with how the CSA 1973 was constructed and stands to this day.

Don’t get me wrong, I was not referencing the entire CSA, and I also misstated my point a little bit.

I mean, I believe benzos are appropriately scheduled relative to opioids. That is, opioids should be much more tightly regulated than benzos.

I have been addicted to benzos for about 5 years so I do understand what it’s about. And yes, once you get up to high doses of benzos the positive effects are replaced entirely by negative effects.

I suppose my experience is actually shaped by the fact that I only use illicit benzos (ie purchased from street dealers, not from an rx).

There are drugs designed for dependence, primarily all opioids for maintenance and in cases of terminal illness.

What I didn’t get across correctly is that I do not believe scheduling should be based on the severity of withdrawals nor the prescribing habits of physicians. I believe scheduling should be based on likelihood of dependence, risk of death, and societal harm.

Marijuana is the obvious outlier and I am certainly not in favor of legalization but CI, that’s absurd...

 

[Keif' Richards]

Firstly, let me say that I respect your opinions, especially after you elaborated a little bit. One thing I think we disagree on is the actual total harm caused by Benzodiazepines in our society. Keep in mind, Americans consume the most drugs of any nation, with Europe close behind. We're always going to be an example of "what can go wrong" with psychoactive drugs, because we are the primary consumers.

Benzodiazepines wouldn't be harmful if they were prescribed properly. That is the basis of the whole problem though. They are not prescribed correctly. There might be a few rogue psychiatrists who go by the book, but as a man who has plowed through PsyD's throughout New England for over a decade and as someone who has bought Benzodiazepines off the street for a decade, I feel I can say that this is not typical. Can I speak for all doctors? Of Course not. However, I feel I understand the foundation of the "Psychiatry Industry" pretty well at this point. These days are behind me, but the practices seem to remain pretty static.

When a Psychiatrist or more rarely these days, a GP prescribes a Benzodiazepine, it's more often for a month. Again, I'm not speaking universally here, but this is a noted trend. When a patient begins the medication and their anxiety magically disappears, they go back. Provided a patient is not a visible junkie or something, they will typically be given a refill. Let's say even after just one month, you're cut off flat. Those problems they were medicating are going to seem magnified. I'm not saying withdrawal, but it's not exactly a pleasant feeling either. I can say that 14 days of 2mg Clonazepam left me a shaking, anxious mess when I was cut off for maybe 48 hours.

Benzodiazepines are highly addictive and these prescribers who unscrupulously write for this stuff do not typically open with a sales pitch like "by the way, this could eventually destroy your nervous system, rob you of your sanity, leave you unable to remember your own name and enslave your body". That is for real. This is not some D.A.R.E. bullshit, the irony being that I doubt those guys even talks about this stuff.

It's pointless to dance around the fact. Someone who struggles with anxiety, stress, panic or what have you who is given a pill that can take that all away, well, that's pretty enticing. When a prescriber starts someone like this off with a month's worth of daily Bnezodiazepines it is game on in my opinion. Kudos to everyone who has managed to keep their usage under control, but I am more concerned about the folks who are hopelessly dependent and can't find a way out. It is not a quick or easy dependency to break.

 

[Jungo871]

My GP is against benzodiazepines and he has tried to get me down from 30mg of valium to around 15mg. I know how addictive and destructive these drugs can be and know where the GPs are coming from, but once addicted it isn't for psychological relief but rather just not to feel ill without them. IMHO people are better on this stuff than say opioid drugs as these are far more destructive and addictive than benzos could ever be.

 

[Jungo871]

Sorry Keif' Richards I didn't see your post. I know what you mean, I have used a ton of different benzodiazepines over the years and can say I know about the Ashton manual being the dose dependant article that every benzodiazepine addict should read. But with diazepam the long half-life is one of the benefits, not having to redose regularly but I just don't get the kick out of it like I used to and I've tried it various different ways, from sublingually to oral (never snorted it as does nothing and is a waste) and all I get is a feeling I'm on it but very dull feeling. Xanax which isn't prescribed in the UK, is by far imo in terms of recreation is stronger and hit harder than valium. That being said if I had the choice to be on either it would be diazepam mainly because it's in your system WAY longer than alprazolam. With around 6 bars of Xanax I already had a tolerance to benzos and that stuff has way more amnesia than diazepam and can make you blackout. I haven't blacked out on valium for years now and have tried from 150mg to 300mg maybe more (don't try this if you have no benzodiazepine tolerance or at all) which was stupid as it didn't feel any different than say 20mg. I don't bother when I take my dose as it's still in my system the next day. But what worries me more is why people want to mess around with these potent drugs, without a script and end up in a living hell. Comparing the two is I'd say Benzos do the job limited euphoria, bad withdrawals, worse than probably any other drug except for the obvious like barbs slightly off topic but with opioid addiction there's more euphoria but worse addiction psychologically and bad but not life threatening physical withdrawals. All in all benzos are worse drugs, have rattled off alcohol but would hate a benzodiazepine withdrawal. As for the cannabis, I stopped because I was on it from morning until night and it got me craving stronger drugs like alcohol after a while. I love cannabis but I don't crave it the same way I do other drugs. One of my favourites is ketamine but it's hard to get in my area.

 

[Lorne???]

No ones mentioned cocaine and meth are scheduled 2, yet weed is still s1

Good to states that's have legalized it