Stimulants Benzedrex liver toxicity

[LandsUnknown]

For perspective, I know what a weekend of modest binge drinking does to my liver enyzmes: the ALT and AST soar into "dangerous liver damage" territory, but going clean for just a week restores them to normal levels.

I don't think this is accurate information. In fact, it can't be. I get drunk nearly every night and have been doing this for a long time, with no problems honestly. Never throw up or black out or anything like that. To me, alcohol is kind of a dual purpose thing, it helps me chill out and relax at the end of the day. The night before my last blood test, I got a bit drunk. Certainly at the level that the CDC would consider "binge drinking". If I remember correctly, I had four cans of Trader Joe's Double IPA (8.5 percent, so equivalent to probably "6-7 standard drinks" or so. Above the threshold of "binge drinking". Part of the reason for my alcohol habit is to chill out and relax (and also to sleep, as I have a way of staying up very late on nights that I do not drink, but I can go a day or occasionally even two or three without drinking and have no negative symptoms from it other than sometimes wanting a beer) And at the time of my blood test, I drank this amount of alcohol for around 6 months or so every night without fail. Prior to this, I cut back to drinking two beers a night for a year or so until I began drinking more heavily again which I still am. Prior to that, I had drank this amount on a nightly basis as well for several years. Given my alcohol habit, I was somewhat concerned about the liver test and even googled "symptoms of liver issues" due to being a bit of hypochondriac.

Despite this, my doctor not only said that my liver enzymes were in the normal range but that my "liver and kidneys are in excellent condition", indicating that not only was it in the normal range but in the upper end of the normal range. Therefore, clearly liver enzymes are not universally elevated by heavy drinking. In order to become more informed about health risks of my alcohol habit that I very much do not wish to give up, I have done a lot of research on the subject online. Around 80% of very heavy drinkers do not develop liver issues at all to a medically significant degree (even if they drink very large amounts of alcohol). These people effectively are not going to need to worry about having a problem with it no matter how much they drink. However, the other 20% or so of people can develop very serious, even fatal liver problems from heavy drinking and it often does not take as much alcohol as one may imagine. And if someone stops drinking altogether, yes the liver can heal if it hasn't progressed too far. But if it has, the damage can be permanent. Unfortunately, there is no way to know whether or not one is vulnerable to develop problems.

However, if OP was told that his liver function was in the bottom 1%, that sounds like a problem. As a result, I would be concerned. If I were in this position, as difficult as it may be for me, I would stop consuming alcohol altogether. I also would get a second opinion from another doctor. If this second opinion said that the first doctor was wrong and my liver was fine, I'd probably stop for a beer on the way home from the doctor's office. But until I got the official word that the doctor was wrong, I wouldn't attempt to speculate about the possibility of the doctor that gave the bad news being wrong. Because in my research, one can have severe liver damage and no symptoms. No jaundice, liver pain, nausea, nothing at all. Generally feeling well but suffering from serious liver problems that could become extremely severe and swiftly. Liver damage in general is nothing to fuck around with. If you are concerned about your doctor lying, that's even more reason to get a second opinion. Sadly, I can't say it is impossible. So, get a second opinion. However, don't assume that your doctor lied or is wrong. They may be, but they could also be right.

To expedite things, you could ask for your own bloodwork results from the other doctor and take them with you to an appointment to the other doctor. And act very concerned on the phone, I would be too if I were in that position. And ask for the soonest appointment. Go in with the results and ask the other doctor what they think of the situation. And say that you were on a binge at the time of the test. If they say it looks fine, then they're likely correct. Perhaps, they'll order more tests. And if so, I'd just go through with it. Hopefully, that doctor was wrong or lying. But since you don't know that, err on the side of caution as difficult as it may be.

To Scrofula, for HR sake, don't encourage him to ignore this doctor's advice due to the mere possibility that he/she was wrong or lying. There is no clear evidence of this, therefore assuming that the doc is lying or wrong is taking a very serious chance with what I would personally consider to be an unacceptable level of risk and many people would agree with this.

 

[Scrofula]

To Scrofula, for HR sake, don't encourage him to ignore this doctor's advice due to the mere possibility that he/she was wrong or lying. There is no clear evidence of this, therefore assuming that the doc is lying or wrong is taking a very serious chance with what I would personally consider to be an unacceptable level of risk and many people would agree with this.

To Landsunknown, FFS, don't give me advice about something I didn't do--encourage him to do anything other than stop drinking and get therapy. His doctor didn't even give him advice to ignore.

If that sounds bitchy, it's cause it's been repeated a dozen times in this thread.


Cyberius does NOT have severe liver damage. How do I know? As I've said, and won't say again, he is not in a hospital. He would not have left the hospital if his liver was severely damaged. Dude left without even a script or instructions. Therefore his liver is fine. IOW, with healthy living it'll heal right up all on its own. Like I said.

"But Scrofula," some users seem to think, "My Aunt's partner left the hospital and two days later her liver exploded, you're a bad man for telling Cyberius to do keg stands." Yes, and there's a reason I don't post in CEP anymore.

If folks want to argue the relative "fineness" of one's liver as it relates to standard blood panel results, they're welcome to do so in this derailed thread, just drop the part where you accuse me of ordering OP to do vodka colonics to clean out his pristine liver.

 

[cyberius]

To Landsunknown, FFS, don't give me advice about something I didn't do--encourage him to do anything other than stop drinking and get therapy. His doctor didn't even give him advice to ignore.

If that sounds bitchy, it's cause it's been repeated a dozen times in this thread.


Cyberius does NOT have severe liver damage. How do I know? As I've said, and won't say again, he is not in a hospital. He would not have left the hospital if his liver was severely damaged. Dude left without even a script or instructions. Therefore his liver is fine. IOW, with healthy living it'll heal right up all on its own. Like I said.

"But Scrofula," some users seem to think, "My Aunt's partner left the hospital and two days later her liver exploded, you're a bad man for telling Cyberius to do keg stands." Yes, and there's a reason I don't post in CEP anymore.

If folks want to argue the relative "fineness" of one's liver as it relates to standard blood panel results, they're welcome to do so in this derailed thread, just drop the part where you accuse me of ordering OP to do vodka colonics to clean out his pristine liver.

I've been drinking heavily for the past month, I'm not that bad off *shrugs*

My doctor said if I have another drink it'll kill me... I physically can not do drugs or I will die, those were his words. I'm siding with scro on this one

 

[Tubbs]

Me too, doctors lie when it comes to drug users. I od'd on morphine back in 2014, when I came to doc said I wasn't breathing when i was brought in. 2 nurses and one of the paramedics later told me i had never stopped breathing. So I'm inclined to say doctors do try to white knight and fear monger.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

To Landsunknown, FFS, don't give me advice about something I didn't do--encourage him to do anything other than stop drinking and get therapy. His doctor didn't even give him advice to ignore.

If that sounds bitchy, it's cause it's been repeated a dozen times in this thread.


Cyberius does NOT have severe liver damage. How do I know? As I've said, and won't say again, he is not in a hospital. He would not have left the hospital if his liver was severely damaged. Dude left without even a script or instructions. Therefore his liver is fine. IOW, with healthy living it'll heal right up all on its own. Like I said.

"But Scrofula," some users seem to think, "My Aunt's partner left the hospital and two days later her liver exploded, you're a bad man for telling Cyberius to do keg stands." Yes, and there's a reason I don't post in CEP anymore.

If folks want to argue the relative "fineness" of one's liver as it relates to standard blood panel results, they're welcome to do so in this derailed thread, just drop the part where you accuse me of ordering OP to do vodka colonics to clean out his pristine liver.

But Scrofula, doctors NEVER lie and NEVER exaggerate..... EVER.

Neither do politicians.....or police men..

You're just one if those conspiracy theory nut jobs....

(sarcasm detected.. sorry couldn't resist it)

 

[RedRum OG]

It's mostly the kidneys you need to worry about when it comes to processing/ filtering this stuff, and most stimulants in general.

Not to mention the cardiac system, and most importantly, your brain and potential neurotoxicity.

 

[Scrofula]

It's mostly the kidneys you need to worry about when it comes to processing/ filtering


Not to mention the cardiac system, and most importantly, your brain and potential neurotoxicity.

Nope. Your kidneys are pretty much spared when it comes to alcoholism, although I agree it seems logical, what with the filtering. Except it's mainly water.

And alcohol's not that neurotoxic. It's malnutrition and cardio issues that cause future dain bramage.

Cardio is a big one: if you have esophageal varices and one ruptures, you'll pretty much drown in your own blood before the ambulance gets there.

But really, number one killer for drunks is accidents and general mayhem.

Your liver goes last.

But Scrofula, doctors NEVER lie and NEVER exaggerate..... EVER.

Man, fuck every ER doctor who stares down his judgmental nose at you and lies to your face.

Like the one who looked me in the eye and told me there was nothing they could do, I was going to die in two days tops, and it'd be best if I called my family (he knew I was fine, he was "trying to tell me what I needed to hear" or some shit).

 

[Tubbs]

Scrof man. Redrum was talking stims not alcohol, so you're both right.

 

[Scrofula]

I wasn't trying to give him a hard time.

Sometimes I'm merely forceful in my delivery. We're talking safety here, people.


But thank you, Mr. Rum, for agreeing the liver isn't the primary concern for stims users.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Cyberius does NOT have severe liver damage. How do I know? As I've said, and won't say again, he is not in a hospital.

I deleted some of my posts that sounded preachy and wasn't intending to post in this thread again, but FFS that's some horrible faulty reasoning. I'm with Lands on this one. Just because someone isn't in the hospital is hardly indicative of whether they have sustained severe liver damage or not. For some it is, but it's entirely possible for someone to have bad liver damage but not exhibit any classic symptoms until it's really bad or too late. There's a lot of factors like genetics, metabolism, etc. For some their blood work won't even appear very abnormal until their down to a small percentage of their liver functioning. This thread is honestly a disgrace to any sort of harm reduction.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Nope. Your kidneys are pretty much spared when it comes to alcoholism

And alcohol's not that neurotoxic.

How does alcohol harm the kidneys?

Your kidneys filter harmful substances from your blood. One of these substances is alcohol. Alcohol can cause changes in the function of the kidneys and make them less able to filter your blood. In addition to filtering blood, your kidneys do many other important jobs. One of these jobs is keeping the right amount of water in your body. Alcohol affects the ability of your kidneys to do this. When alcohol dehydrates (dries out) the body, the drying effect can affect the normal function of cells and organs, including the kidneys.

Too much alcohol can also affect your blood pressure. People who drink too much are more likely to have high blood pressure. And medications for high blood pressure can be affected by alcohol. High blood pressure is a common cause of kidney disease. More than two drinks a day can increase your chance of having high blood pressure.

Chronic drinking can also cause liver disease. This adds to the kidney's job. The rate of blood flow to your kidneys is usually kept at a certain level, so that your kidneys can filter your blood well. Liver disease impairs this important balancing act. In fact, most patients in the United States who have both liver disease and associated kidney dysfunction are alcohol dependent.

https://www.kidney.org/atoz/content/alcohol

The neurotoxicity of alcohol.
Harper C1.
Abstract

Patterns of drinking are changing throughout the world and in many countries this will be detrimental to the health and welfare of the local population. Even uncomplicated alcoholics who have no specific neurological or hepatic problems show signs of regional brain damage and cognitive dysfunction. Many of these changes are exaggerated and other brain regions damaged in patients who have additional vitamin B1 (thiamine) deficiency (Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome). Quantitative neuropathology techniques and improvements in neuroimaging have contributed significantly to the documentation of these changes but mechanisms underlying the damage are not understood. A human brain bank targeting alcohol cases has been established in Sydney, Australia and provides fresh and frozen tissue for alcohol researchers. The tissues can be used to test hypotheses developed from structural neuropathological studies or from animal models and in vitro studies. Identification of reversible pathological changes and preventative medical approaches in alcoholism should enhance rehabilitation and treatment efforts, thereby mitigating debilitating morbidities and reducing mortality associated with this universal public health problem.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17439928

Alcoholic malnutrition and the small intestine.
World MJ, Ryle PR, Thomson AD.
Abstract

Malnutrition is common in chronic alcoholics, although its severity may depend on the social characteristics of the patient group under study and their severity of alcohol dependence. General malnutrition is often reflected in body weight loss, mainly of adipose and muscle tissue. This loss of nutritional reserves is partly due to inadequate protein intake in the face of continued alcohol ingestion. However, there is also evidence that ethanol is relatively ineffective as a source of calories, in spite of its high theoretical calorific value. An increased metabolic rate and tissue oxygen consumption following alcohol ingestion, without parallel increases in phosphate bond energy production or anabolic processes demonstrate the poor value of ethanol as an alternative calorie source to carbohydrate, fat or protein. This situation of nutritional imbalance is often compounded in chronic alcoholics by the effects that ethanol has on gastrointestinal function. These include increased mucosal permeability which may lead to 'leakage' of nutrients from the blood to the gut lumen, increased gut motility with increased transit times, and impaired salt and water absorption. Alcohol inhibits absorption of vitamins and nutrients by active transport processes, an effect that may be crucial in precipitating specific nutrient deficiencies (e.g. thiamine) in the alcoholic, in addition to the role of reduced dietary intake of vitamins and minerals in alcoholics that also contributes to such deficiency states. The end result may be severe functional impairment and tissue damage in other organs, notably the liver and the brain, as a consequence of specific vitamin and nutrient deficiencies arising in chronic alcoholics by these mechanisms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4052163

 

[Scrofula]

I appreciate your change of tone on those posts, I took out a couple of my responses. If there's another one that bothers you let me know and I'll look into it.

Otherwise, I'm not going to continue defending a position that has nothing to do with the OP and wasn't even a major point.

His liver should not be his priority.


EDIT:
OH, fuck, nutty, you drop that while I'm still trying to edit this one.

Again, what is your crusade here?

THe kidney thing doesn't exactly contradict me, and the other two back me up.

I thought Mr. RedRum OG was talking about alcohol, but he was talking about stims. Still, far as I know, I'm the only fucking drunk here, the one with actual steatosis and multiple complications.

Fact is, Cyberius doesn't need to worry about his damn liver.

But I'm glad you're doing your research, and other than the kidney blurb, cite primary sources.

I'm always going to correct the record when I'm wrong, I always like hearing new research.

But you don't know any more than I do, and are doing some serious fear-mongering. It's unhelpful, and you need to knock it off. If you want to discuss it with me further, we can do it in PMs.

 

[nuttynutskin]

You sound like you're in denial honestly. I'm just calling it like I see it. My only current "crusade" is calling out false and potentially dangerous information. If people want to risk it with their already bad health that's fine but they should at least know the potential consequences. I don't think saying things like "Fact is, Cyberius doesn't need to worry about his damn liver" is particularly helpful or in the order of harm reduction. And as far as discussing anything I don't think I need your permission when what I posted isn't breaking any rules.

Oh, and I've been to the ER more times than I can count from alcohol related problems, so don't act like you have some exceptional expertise on the subject. Just because you've maybe had doctors lie to you about the seriousness of your condition isn't any excuse to advocate throwing caution to the wind. Especially in an HR forum.

 

[Scrofula]

You can't call it out as false when you don't know what's true, or anything about his health whatsoever.

Do you do this with any information you hear? A parent sees their kid playing in the park, fall, cry, show them the booboo, and then says, "you'll live".

I suppose you march over and sternly upbraid the parent, because, how can she say that? The child could be susceptible to flesh-eating MRSA and is now doomed to die.

I feel like I gave you plenty of space to complain, and pointed out the "PM" system available to you.

Please stick to that for all your "cyberius liver gonna 'splode" chastising needs.

By which I mean the "unapprove" button will get dusted off.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

You sound like you're in denial honestly. I'm just calling it like I see it. My only current "crusade" is calling out false and potentially dangerous information. If people want to risk it with their already bad health that's fine but they should at least know the potential consequences. I don't think saying things like "Fact is, Cyberius doesn't need to worry about his damn liver" is particularly helpful or in the order of harm reduction. And as far as discussing anything I don't think I need your permission when what I posted isn't breaking any rules.

Oh, and I've been to the ER more times than I can count from alcohol related problems, so don't act like you have some exceptional expertise on the subject. Just because you've maybe had doctors lie to you about the seriousness of your condition isn't any excuse to advocate throwing caution to the wind. Especially in an HR forum.

I wanted to pm you about something but your mailbox is full

 

[CFC]

Cyberius: there's scarce little research on benzedrex, so it's all going to be rather speculative.

As others have said though, stimulants (in general) aren't as hard on the liver as they are on the cardiovascular system or brain.

However I've repeatedly suffered acute cholangitis (inflamed bile duct) from stimulant abuse, which is rather disconcerting and clearly not great for the liver. Although the liver can stand up to a lot more abuse than most other parts of the body.

In either case, if you're having liver problems (chronically elevated liver enzymes etc), then you'd self-evidently do well to avoid most unhealthy things.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

Cyberius: there's scarce little research on benzedrex, so it's all going to be rather speculative.

As others have said though, stimulants (in general) aren't as hard on the liver as they are on the cardiovascular system or brain.

However I've repeatedly suffered acute cholangitis (inflamed bile duct) from stimulant abuse, which is rather disconcerting and clearly not great for the liver. Although the liver can stand up to a lot more abuse than most other parts of the body.

In either case, if you're having liver problems (chronically elevated liver enzymes etc), then you'd self-evidently do well to avoid most unhealthy things.

A good cocktail of methyltestosterone, oxymethalone and fluoxymesterone is what you need to sort that liver out bro

OK...well maybe not...but you'll be banging out 5 plates for reps no problem....until your liver explodes that is....

 

[Slow_Mobius]

It sounds like Cy has figured out his situation, and this discussion has gotten OT.

Closed