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Belief in god or not?

meth,

I was confused about your wording, I guess.
Particularly the word naturally.

No one naturally seeks God?
It is not in our nature to seek answers?
It is not in our nature to seek God?

I very much disagree.

nat·u·ral·ly—used to describe something that happens or exists by itself without being controlled or changed by someone

Yes, there are other definitions


If God is always in control, what about those who seek God where He cannot be found? (Idolators.)
As a literal Christian, surely you don't believe that every religion is correct?
Also, don't some people seek God for the wrong reasons?
God is in control in respect to his plan is what is going to happen.
If you seek God you will find God.
The journey begins with revelation to you.
It's not my business to judge what happens to others.
Just to be obedient to God.
 
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Good points,
from you and meth.
I ... as a human being, cannot say everyone knows God does, or doesn't exist… This is where I was coming from.
Also, we are only speaking from our own worldly perspectives (everyone = human beings).
So, within this realm, everyone on this planet… in your opinion reaches a point where they question if there is a god? I understand. :)

How is agnosticism like people being robots? I might see agnosticism as people being okay living in not knowing. Is it necessary to make a decision?
 
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Forever said:
Atheism is impossible. (You can't know God doesn't exist.)
Agnosticism is practically impossible. (People are not robots.)
That only leaves deism & theism. (You can know God.)
The stars must be aligning cause I agree with totally☺



Foreverafter said:
That analogy is positively awful.
No its not. I'm showing how unrealistic it is to think we can understand God's plan in totality.
 
No.

Nature is creation. Species procreate. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Everything - individually - comes from something else, so we assume that everything - as a whole - must also come from something else. The assumption that something created everything is just as plausible - if not more so - than the assumption that nothing created everything... based on everything we know about the functionality of life in the universe, not just human technology.

As for the clockwork theory: it goes hand in hand with evolution.
(If you believe in both evolution and God, that is.)
It doesn't have anything to do with clocks.

As we become more advanced as a species, we create things other than our children.
Less advanced species only procreate. Humans create.
At the upper end of this scale is God, the - theoretical - omnipotent creator.



Maybe Descartes was less confused than you are.

Maybe I should've been more clear. What I was dismissing in my post was, for the most part, the idea of a God, as a creator (not procreator) seperate from human beings, who created the universe.
Now there views toward nature that are more along the lines of what I was saying about the world before technology, where human beings are seen as part of nature, part of the universe, and not seperated from it.
You said that because everything (individually) must come from something else, we must assume
that everything as a whole must come from something else.
This, I do not understand. What do you mean "everything as a whole"?
If you are speaking about everything as a whole, which you cannot do in the first place (do to language, a human invention which closes the mind into thinking about only things that we can talk about) then that means you are not including something else - a god or creator - which is seperate from the whole, which of course makes no sense. There is nothing that can be seperate from the world as a whole because then the world wouldn't be a whole. It needs a god, which is exactly what I was saying earlier. Humans who use language will automatically hang on the belief that there must be a creator seperate from the world because that's how they think.
Of course some do not, and still use language as a tool of course but do not take it to mean that it alone can explain the world.

Language, and further down the line even more abstracting technologies like written language, gives people the power to split things in the world apart. When I speak, like if I say the name of an object, that's great because I can now talk about that object with you, but then that necessarily leaves every other thing in the universe out of the picture. This gives us the feeling that it is possible for there to be a whole (The Universe), and then something outside of that whole. Which, obviously, is completely absurd.

You stated Newton's third law in the beginning of your response. Now that's fine for explaining individual things, like you said. But to use that to explain that the universe was created by something else is completely ridiculous.
As I (I hope at least) made clear already, the whole cannot come from something else (whatever it is. God, creator) because then your leaving out something and you can get into a very long game continuously asking yourseld questions about "Well if God made the universe who made him? Another god? Well who made that god? And that god?" And that would obviously get you nowhere.

The universe could not have possibly come from "something". Because then we would not be talking about the universe but only part of the universe.
The universe could also not have come from nothing because of the reason thatyou stated in your post. (Which I agree with)

This is a paradoxical dualism created by abberations in the mind that come from the inventions of language ( and by a lesser extent time keeping devices like the clock ).
And yes the Clockwork universe idea does have a lot to do with clocks themselves. Not necessarily the idea itself, although the clockwork universe i'm sure would have made no sense to someone not living during that time or after. But in the way that
(again had stated in my post) all cultures use the techology of their present time to explain the universe.
And no, Descartes may have been a genius, and i'm sure he wasn't very confused about his own ideas, but, to my mind at least he was very off the mark.
 
You: "Im not sure what notion humans had before or after they begin to write things down.
How do we know why they believed in a creator?
But logically intelligence comes from intelligence.

Me: Well we can choose to stay in ignorance about some things or we can use our common sense about how the interface between mind and technology works (not that i'd expect many people to have thought about something as weird, but also as meaningful to humans, as that)
Maybe those humans still did believe in a creator, but personally I think that it makes perfect sense that they wouldn't have had the notion of a creator seperate from the universe. I don't even they that they could have possible thought of such a thing at all.
As for the intelligence thing. Yes. I think that nature is intelligent. But like I said to ForEverAfter, the idea that the universe had to either come from something or nothing at all is a ridiculous idea. Both, as much as i've tried to twist my mind either way, are impossible. They're both toxic ideas brought up through the human urge to fragment the world.

You: Quantum physics shows vibrations play a key role in universe. What is sound but vibrations.
What are spoken words?

Me: This, I'm sorry, sounds utterly meaningless to me. To say that "vibrations play a key role in universe", if what you're saying specifically is the creation of it. We get back to the idea that there must be something outisde of the universe (the whole) to have created it. Here using vibrations in place of, or as, a god.
Spoken words are a lot of things, including vibrations yes. To animals, and machines or tools used to measure sounds, only vibrations. To humans, they also have meanings attached to them which are used to fragment the world into singular terms which I can use to describe something to you but while describing that thing, or those things, to you, leaving out the rest of the picture. Again with trying to imagine something seperate from the rest of the universe. An utter impossibility, but still, useful to us as a tool to speak to each other...

You: God can exist in the past,present, and future simultaneously. God is, was, and always will be.
God's infiniteness allows this.
God transcends time.

Me: That is actually what I was saying earler about the 'is-ness' that pre-language humans must have felt with nature. Transcending time is losing time as a quality of life. "Forgetting" time, in a way.

You: Some knowledge comes at a price.
Wouldn't it be great to live in Garden of Eden without any technology.

Me: I think that would be great.
I do agree with you that knowledge comes at a price. I don't see the thousands of years of human history as just a waste of time, lives, trading our happiness for sadness, and loss of resources in the earth. I'm sure if I wanted to I could go find a nice cave to live in for the rest of my life. But i'm glad with the things that we know now because of what humans have done, including the distorting effects of technology.
I'm pretty positive that one day, we will able to transcend the old notions and ideas and memes that have caused humans a lot of discomfort and alienation from nature. Using the same force that created them too. Intelligence. And with the same tools. Technology.

Sorry I don't know yet how to do the quotation thing correctly, and i'm on my phone right now so i'm kind of botching the thing up. But I tried my best to explain.
 
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McTavish, you're entire argument appears to revolve around the assumption that the universe is everything.
In other words you're saying: "Logically God can't exist, because God doesn't exist," which isn't very convincing.
 
If I was forced to sing to Jesus when I was a kid, I doubt I'd be able to see beyond that. I'd probably hate everything about the church.


"Lord, we thank you. Lord, we praise you. Lord, we sing your holy song."


My sister is so Atheist she hasn't even had her children christened (like it could hurt, and it's more like a social tradition).

But there are actually some beautiful Christians who come out of genuinly Christian families (not Agnostic or Atheist). It's like it becomes a part of them from they're born and they can grow up to organise their whole life around it. It's surely strange to see as it's so far-out there for most.

These often have a strong relationship with Christ which no one can really understand. Many definitely have that sense of "The Holy Spirit" about them (used to be called "The Mysterious Force" in Christians).

It's a very pure and kind of crystalline looking energy.
 
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^
God is the one responsible for your knowledge of God.
No one naturally seeks God.

I don't know, I think it's a bit of both. I think you have a choice to some extent. But Peter Deunov said when you've gone too far from God he will start to "reel you in".

Only this is very different for each person, obviously. Some never seem to be reeled in and it's probably part of their fate.
 
If there is anything we could call 'God', i would say it's just nature herself.
Just as an intelligent being that pervades everything. I think nature is definitely intelligent.
And I would say that we are also a part of it. That nature (God) works through us humansfor it's purpose. Whatever that may be.
That's as far as i would go with it.

That's Pantheism :)
 
Ninae said:
when you've gone too far from God he will start to "reel you in"

There is definitely a slingshot effect.
(God loves a sinner.)

smoky said:
How is agnosticism like people being robots?

To achieve absolute neutrality is to not have an opinion. I don't think that's possible, unless you're a robot. All agnostics I've spoken to reveal the fact - after some interrogation - that they sway in one direction or another.

To sway towards atheism is to believe something, without any evidence / reason.
Nobody can know that there isn't a God. How do you prove that to yourself?

On the other hand: I know there is a God, because I have encountered Him.
I can prove it to myself.

Theism / Deism is based on evidence.
Atheism is based on nothing.

Before science proved that the Earth was spherically-shaped, the world believed it was flat.
The argument for atheism is similar: since we cannot prove it, we don't believe it.
We know only what we can see, now and here, and nothing else exists.

While people may insist - for various reasons - that there is no God, I give them more credit than that.
So called atheists are actually on a path towards God. (Via the slingshot effect.)

Why do people who don't believe in something spend so much time and effort discussing it?
I don't chase Elvis conspiracy nuts, and try and prove that he's dead.
I have no motivation to do so.

Atheists try a bit too hard to convince others.
It often seems like - maybe - they're really trying to convince themselves.

...

Does that (regardless of whether or not you agree with it) make sense?
 
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lol Atheism is impossible..

O..k..

I'm not even going to point it out.


Fuck me.


But the non-existence of God can't be proven to yourself, even if you believe it, while the existence of God CAN be proven to you (not necessarily because you believe it).
 
My sister is so Atheist she hasn't even had her children christened

This is a bit odd. I wasn't christened. I will not christen my children. I'm not an atheist.
The vast majority of the world's population are theists, and they do not christen their children.
 
It's still a common social tradition in Europe. Most who christen their children aren't really believers. They just like the ritual/party as it's still the norm. Like going through confirmation at 15. Mostly for the social aspect and to get expensive gifts and clothes.

When I "confirmed" my christening I was a confirmed atheist or the world had managed to convince me. Didn't last long. Sounds crazy, but everyone I knew (aside from some freaks) were the same.
 
But the non-existence of God can't be proven to yourself, even if you believe it, while the existence of God CAN be proven to you (not necessarily because you believe it).

How do you prove the existence of god to yourself? Why can't the nonexistence of god be proven to yourself?
 
LOL. Because there would be nothing to prove it. God can only be proven to you through experiencing some kind of direct inner contact (though this is subjective and not shareable).
 
How do you prove the existence of god to yourself?

By encountering God.

Why can't the nonexistence of god be proven to yourself?

It cannot be proven until either:

a) you die
or, b) there is irrefutable scientific evidence that there is no God
 
When you're ready, God will send some rays down, and you can receive them or not.

Encountering God through a personal mystical experience is very different from encountering God through religion - you use religion until you can connect with God by yourself.
 
So you've seen god? He talks to you?

You can't PROVE it though it's simply a choice to comfort you because you can't believe this is it.

There's many explanations for the chemical reactions in your mind that makes you see a bright light or hear voices telling you to do certain things or to live your life a certain way.

There's nothing in this world that can't be explained eventually. But its human nature to try to fill in the gaps when we encounter something unknown to us it doesn't mean what our brain tells us is right. We hear a voice we assume there's a higher power talking to us when in reality we don't know this and there is a logical explanation for what is happening.
 
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