Belief in god or not?

[Ninae]

I doubt it.

I only see or perceive things in my inner mind with my inner senses. Nothing comes from the physical senses and I don't get it mixed up with that. I can surely tell the difference between what's spiritual and sensory input.

 

[Smoky]

But who has said they see a bright light or hear voices telling them to do certain things or life your life in a certain way?

The individual that sees and hears them?

 

[Smoky]

OK... I'll give into temptation... Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha, Daniel, Noah, Jesus... :D Should I go on?

Valid example!

 

[methamaniac]

But the bible says, "Thou shalt not kill" - do we interpret that to mean murder is wrong but killing is fine? It seems quite apparent God had no compunction about making the Hebrews kill innocent men and women - he even wiped out almost all humans himself.

My example is not fallacious, because it says, "But what if the child was the first person in the world to have AIDS and you know 20 million people will die from it in the next 2 decades?" The question is valid I think. It is asking 'if this situation, it that action still wrong?" And after all, we live in a world where the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, right? Isn't that almost a definition of Democracy?

I interpret it to mean murder is wrong which is backed up by Hebrew meaning and context.

I believe murder is unjustly killing.
A justified killing is not murder.
We don't determine ultimately what is justifiable.
We don't get to judge ourselves.

 

[Ninae]

Valid example!

Not really.

 

[Smoky]

No?

 

[ebola?]

Us trying to comprehend God and God's ways is kin to asking a robot to comprehend the person that makes it.

That analogy is positively awful.

Maybe. It seems like we're on the verge of the emergence of generalized AI, so indeed, "robots" who hold the ability to understand their creators (at least to the degree that we can understand ourselves, which appears somewhat meager).

What does this say about humans' potential relation to the processes of creation at work in the universe in general?

ebola

 

[Ninae]

No?

No, what makes you think so?

Just because he's read a theory that people with experiences of God can hear voices or see bright lights doesn't mean anyone posting in this thread do or that any of those biblical figures did. There's no real connection between those 3 things. That's just something that's been assumed for the sake of argument.

Are you going to move the goalposts now?

 

[Ninae]

Maybe. It seems like we're on the verge of the emergence of generalized AI, so indeed, "robots" who hold the ability to understand their creators (at least to the degree that we can understand ourselves, which appears somewhat meager).

What does this say about humans' potential relation to the processes of creation at work in the universe in general?

ebola

I don't agree with this robot ideology. I think a better comparison would be to compare it with a human being and a cat. And we can't make cat-robots.

 

[The Doc.]

I can prove it to myself, as much as anyone can prove anything.
It's not something I want to believe, for comfort sake.



I didn't hear voices or see a light.
What you're describing sounds like psychosis.
You're making assumptions.



Maybe. I don't really know how you can say that with any certainty.
And, God isn't in this world.



My brain didn't tell me anything.



I'm not making any assumptions. You are.
Nobody mentioned hearing voices. But it makes us sound crazy, doesn't it?

It's difficult, nigh impossible, to explain if you haven't encountered God / had a fully transcendental divine experience.
I don't expect you to take my word for it and I have no intention of attempting to explain it to you.

I will say this, however: before I encountered God, I was a skeptical "non-believer".
I didn't want to believe in what I'd experienced and I tried as hard as I could to find some other explanation.
I didn't seek out God.
God found me.

I have seen and experienced extraordinary things, that I cannot put into words.
The atheist argument is, often: concisely explain the ineffable or it doesn't exist.

I have experienced psychosis.
Encountering God is nothing like psychosis.
God is clearer and more certain than anything in this life. It is not a matter of faith.
Some people who haven't encountered God, have faith that there is a God.
You could argue that those people believe what they want to believe.
Me: I don't have faith; I don't believe; I know.

It's a little revealing that you assume so much.
How do you know about something you haven't experienced?
It seems like you - for whatever reason - really don't want to believe.
Stop making assumptions about the divine. It's foolish and patronizing.

If you think "we" hear voices, ask us.
Don't just assume "we're" psychotic, for convenience sake.
It says more about you than it does about "us".

Well when people say they have had direct inner contact with him I assume that means god reached out to the person. I suppose you can feel a presence without hearing it or seeing the entity but then again a person having a strange feeling they interpret as god contacting them, to me isn't proof of a higher being. But that's just me I look for a logical explanation I don't just say oh I feel great at this moment it must be god contacting me. I think oh look my natural endorphins are releasing or it must be those drugs I took a while back. I suppose it does make me cynical and close minded, but I need proof or I can't trust god. How can I trust some entity that I've never seen or heard? That's how I look at it.

And did I not ask a question? I asked do you hear voices? Or see god? Then your response was a defensive one. I simply gave an example of a religious person hearing god talk to them. Since you arnt going to explain how you experience god then I won't go any further with this. From the things you said and how defensive you got it also says a lot about you. The way you refuse to believe everything has an explanation also says much about you, mainly that your committed to your belief's and won't listen to reason. But as long as we go through life believing our theory on life is correct all I know is its a great feeling to have no matter what stance you take.

I will always believe there is an explanation for everything. I believe some just choose not to care or it doesn't matter to them to find the truth. Either that or they have strong belief's in what they think is true.

But me I believe there are explanations besides god for peoples so called "touched by an angel" experiences.
Just as humans once thought the earth was flat then discovered the truth later on.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your faith I just wanted to know how you experience God. I learnt long ago I can't reason with religious people, the same way they can't get through to me.

I'm not saying your psychotic but like you siad I do believe if a person hears voices then there is a medical explanation. Such as being psychotic. Again im not saying you do, like you said you just have a feeling in your body/mind that God is with you and if that's what you choose to believe then go right ahead. Its good to have belief you stand up for like this. I go through life thinking my view on the world is correct, but you know what? so do you so who cares. This debate could go on and on but the point is I don't think any of us are willing to change our beliefs because somebody said so. I just always wonder how someone believes and trusts something they have never seen in their life and am curious as to what keeps their faith.

 

[Ninae]

You don't think "Oh I feel great it must be God" you think "I feel God so I feel great". The stronger it feels the better you feel. It's the other way around, the physical world doesn't inform you about God, God informs you about the physical world.

 

[The Doc.]

That's great but I don't feel him even when I was religious and read the bible as a little one until I started to get a mind of my own and away from my mother's belief's. My mom used to tell me stories about praying to god asking for him to take away her pain and he would. She even claims he got her to walk overnight when she needed leg braces as a kid. Now I have seen my mom getting more messed up over the years and its one thing after another so it seems god has left her side. Me I never felt any inkling he existed besides what others tell me so how can I trust him? Trust has to be earned you don't get trust by hiding in a closet

 

[ForEverAfter]

Will respond tomorrow.

 

[AustinAllenRaney]

I believe in evolution, but I also believe in a afterlife as in the astral plane or something, I also believe heavily in karma. idk ima mixed up person I guess...

 

[AustinAllenRaney]

im agnostic personally

 

[Journyman16]

I interpret it to mean murder is wrong which is backed up by Hebrew meaning and context.
I believe murder is unjustly killing.
A justified killing is not murder.
We don't determine ultimately what is justifiable.
We don't get to judge ourselves.

So in the example given, which of the killings are justified? How right is the man to kill someone who is going to kill millions? How right is it to kill HIM and let millions die instead?

We DO get to "determine ultimately what is justifiable" even if we pretend not to by abdicating our responsibility to God - we choose which God for a start, even within a given Religion. Some people choose the merciful version of their God while others go for the stern God who metes out punishment.

In such manner we determine ultimately what is justifiable.

As for "We don't get to judge ourselves" who else is better qualified? AFAIK even at Judgement Day you get to review your life and choices - if we do not judge ourselves then there is no justice at all. If you judge me guilty and I don't feel I am, conflict ensues.

 

[Ninae]

That's great but I don't feel him even when I was religious and read the bible as a little one until I started to get a mind of my own and away from my mother's belief's. My mom used to tell me stories about praying to god asking for him to take away her pain and he would. She even claims he got her to walk overnight when she needed leg braces as a kid. Now I have seen my mom getting more messed up over the years and its one thing after another so it seems god has left her side. Me I never felt any inkling he existed besides what others tell me so how can I trust him? Trust has to be earned you don't get trust by hiding in a closet

But this is all normal. Most people go through this process. I also believed in God in a fairy-tale like kind of way when I was a child and discovered it wasn't as simple. He didn't respond when I talked to him, he didn't give me what I asked for, etc.

It's not supposed to be that easy, or there would be nothing to accomplish. The whole nature of this life is living in a world apart from God, where we have to fend for ourselves, and God residing in a higher and often inaccessible dimension. It's normal to lose faith in religion and turn to a more scientific outlook when you hit adolescence. Your mind is just too simple to understand and most also dislike the sense of limitation and judgement they can feel religion imposes on them and gets in the way of living out their life.

This also fine, as at that age your job is more to re-orientate yourself from the spiritual childhood state to a more wordly state and immerse yourself fully in this life, and this tends to last for a while. Some might also not have it as part of their destiny to live a religious life, they might aim to live a life where they focus on a carreer/family/hedonism, etc. for the experience, and if you forget all about the spiritual dimension it's a stronger and more real experience.

Then many turn to God at the end of their life when they only have death to look forward to, but many don't. It's so individual two people can't really compare outlook at all. There's also a problem in people over 50 trying to teach people still in their youth as young people have a completely different focus and drive than people late in their life do.

So it's not really that easy, but a lot of it also depends on how you feel and how strong your desire to experience God is. He's not going to force himself upon someone who doesn't want it. If you believe God doesn't exist you'll likely have experiences that will enforce it and will focus on that.

 

[Ninae]

If you judge me guilty and I don't feel I am, conflict ensues.

This doesn't really happen at high states of consciousness as everyone knows what is wrong and not. You're not going to argue with God or anyone else if you did something wrong in your life. There wil be full agreement.

 

[ebola?]

I don't agree with this robot ideology.

Lol. What "robot ideology" did I put forth?

I think a better comparison would be to compare it with a human being and a cat.

I disagree vehemently--cats don't construct things, let alone cultural artifacts in the image of their own goals, worldviews, etc. If we posit the existence of a monotheistic god for a second, we're more similar to this god we've posited than this cat, at least in terms of our ability to realize potentialities for emergent understanding and transformation of the universe.

ebola

 

[Ninae]

It wasn't addressed to you.

BUT cats have life-force, consciousness, and an ability to connect with God. As opposed to robots which are just machines run on electricity that have no relation to human beings. Cats also don't shortcut in the rain.

Not that much use in a robot. Not much of a friend, is it? And suddenly it's gone.