being happy and content

[MynameisnotDeja]

It is really a question of just how well you want the medicine to work.

True, but it's also a question of a lot of things, such as personal beliefs. Some of us like to stick to keeping it natural as possible.

But to be fair, I don't like things like St. Johns Wort for depression either, and I view it in basically the same way as I view zoloft. While I feel its a much better choice in that it's healthier and has no side effects, it still is just treating the symptom and not the underlying cause.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

How was I half right? I know that some herbs exert positive beneifts on patients. What I also know is that it is more productive to isolate the desired chemical(s) and run assays as to determine what in the herb is effective and exactly how it is effective. This approach is what has led us to all our useful derivatives, and has allowed for endless studies into the mechanism of action.

Of course it's worthwhile. But it doesn't always yield a product with greater efficacy than the original herb.

By way of analogy, no one has been able to come up with a synthetic set of compounds whose taste could pass for natural chocolate. A way of capturing and processing digital video that's indistinguishable from the 'look' of celluoid, has proven a difficult engineering feat. Sometimes a substance in its raw and natural state gets closest to the desired effect.

It is always better to determine exactly what is interacting with the body and run tests to maximize efficacy. If an herb performs better because it has a mixture of chemicals, it is stupid to just stop there, isolate all of the chemicals and try mixing them together in various quantities and you can reproduce the effect with much more control. It is really a question of just how well you want the medicine to work.

Indeed, it is. If the effect is produced to the patient's satisfaction, it's a hit.

 

[Heuristic]

^ well, but chocolate itself is a product of isolation and refinement of a particular substance from a larger natural compound (the cacao seed) in conjunction with the combination of that particular substance with other compounds. While this is obviously much more primitive than what occurs at a pharmaceutical plant, it's still essentially the same type of production. There's simply less isolation and refinement.

I'm trying to think of recent natural remedies that have shown promise in testing for therapeutic uses... omega-3 fatty acids for triglyceride levels, certain flavinoids derived from grapes, etc., that aren't more effective when isolated. I can't.

What astonishes me, I suppose, is the insistence by some that the largely unregulated, untested, unexamined substance a person buys in a health-food store must somehow be healthier than the regulated, tested, examined medicine, because the former is "natural" and the latter is "synthetic." It's a distinction without a difference, as everything comes from nature.

Can one experiment personally with different herbs and such to see if one has a therapeutic effect? Sure. I wouldn't recommend it though. Should we rely on claims that aren't scientifically tested when treating ourselves? I don't think so, outside of a very narrow set of circumstances.

 

[Heuristic]

And St John's Wort has side-effects. For a partial listing, see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/st-johns-wort/NS_patient-stjohnswort/DSECTION=safety

Looks very similar to the side-effect profile of other anti-depressants, in fact... with the exception that we know much less about St John's Wort, what is in each formulation, etc.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

^ well, but chocolate itself is a product of isolation and refinement of a particular substance from a larger natural compound (the cacao seed) in conjunction with the combination of that particular substance with other compounds. While this is obviously much more primitive than what occurs at a pharmaceutical plant, it's still essentially the same type of production. There's simply less isolation and refinement.

Good point. Hard to argue that there's a distinct line to be drawn between processed and unprocessed, natural and man made.

I'm trying to think of recent natural remedies that have shown promise in testing for therapeutic uses... omega-3 fatty acids for triglyceride levels, certain flavinoids derived from grapes, etc., that aren't more effective when isolated. I can't.

Kava, marijuana, and ginger are three that I can think of. Many water soluble vitamins and ions are more bioavailable the less processed their source is.

What astonishes me, I suppose, is the insistence by some that the largely unregulated, untested, unexamined substance a person buys in a health-food store must somehow be healthier than the regulated, tested, examined medicine, because the former is "natural" and the latter is "synthetic." It's a distinction without a difference, as everything comes from nature.

Now this I agree with. Natural =/= good.

Can one experiment personally with different herbs and such to see if one has a therapeutic effect? Sure. I wouldn't recommend it though. Should we rely on claims that aren't scientifically tested when treating ourselves? I don't think so, outside of a very narrow set of circumstances.

Depends how adventurous you are

I'd certainly tell any patient of mine that herbals and unregulated supplements are potentially high return, but always high risk.

 

[Heuristic]

Well, just taking kava as an example, while much about how the herb works isn't understood, there is an increasing amount of research focusing on the precise compounds in the herb that have therapeutic properties (as well as on what might be causing numerous cases of liver toxicity). Once more is understood about the precise compounds of the herb that help, and those that hurt, the herb can be further refined, the helpful elements isolated, and perhaps a new medication can emerge.

With respect to nutrients, I agree that we do not know enough about how the body processes and uses the various components of foods to start living on concentrated food-pills.

Regarding adventurous: there's adventurous and then there's just pointlessly reckless. If you want an adventure go skydiving or mountain-climbing. Downing a lot of e.g. Kava and St John's Wort because these are "natural" and "may" help anxiety or depression, when there are safer, known alternatives? Eh...

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

^ Well naturally I don't recommend just taking herbs willy nilly, as if they're all just safe at any dose to anyone.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

I am not saying there is always complication, what I said was that it welcomes complication.

Okay, I read it wrong and I'm sorry. You are right, anything we take into our bodies could welcome side effects.

For the record, I am not about abusing herbs either! I consider herbs medicine, and while I might resonate better with herbalists than I do traditional doctors, it doesn't mean that all herbs are safe and I support eating them like candy. Not at all. I've spent a great deal of time studying different herbs and their uses, its something I take pretty seriously, I was even thinking of maybe trying to become an herbalist one day and start my own farm.

And St John's Wort has side-effects. For a partial listing, see http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/st-...SECTION=safety

Looks very similar to the side-effect profile of other anti-depressants, in fact... with the exception that we know much less about St John's Wort, what is in each formulation, etc.

You are right, I realized after I made that post that I should have said it didn't have side effects for me. I very much recognize it could have side effects and like I said, I am not a fan of it's use either.

It's one thing to nutritionally support the brain in the hopes that it properly balances. Such as taking in FOOD like fish with omega 3's and flax. It's different to MEDICATE the brain with something like zoloft or st johns. St johns is medicating, which I don't support.

Now this I agree with. Natural =/= good.

I obviously don't think natural always = good, as some plants are poisonous. But I do, for spiritual and other reasons, like to stick what is natural AND good.

Depends how adventurous you are

I'd certainly tell any patient of mine that herbals and unregulated supplements are potentially high return, but always high risk.

It is a high risk, but you know.. when I was really sick and doctors (after like 5 years of trying) did absolutely SHIT to help me, I got really desparate and did a lot of weird things to myself. I just did trial and error testing on myself with almost everything I could think of. Herbals, cleanses, diets, etc etc.

It certainly can be just as dangerous as doing trial and error testing on yourself with prescription drugs, but I mean, what the hell? Western docs failed me and it was either that or commit suicide. I had little to lose, and I ended up finding my way onto a healing path. I got lucky that I was able to figure out a lot about my body on my own. Some aren't so lucky.

I just think that a lot of people out there who speak very highly of western medicine don't know what it's like to have it completely fail them. It gives you a hell of a different perspective.

And yeah.. I'm still a little angry. It would be wrong to completely blow off western medicine all together, and I'm trying not to. But I trust what has worked for me, that's all I know.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

I am going to rumble here on my own, about a great path of getting off our raving rational mind and how to find your path to so called happiness through health and reducing using medications to find peace within. Don't mind me, just go on in your debate about happiness I will sit here and speak from the mind of a five year old in kidergarden, who don't analyze happiness but live it, and who demonstrate it fully, and if we the so called adults who lost connection with that part of our selves-the magical child within-lost the meaning of life and how to be all we need perhaps to get in contact with that part of ourselves once more. All one needs is to spend a week or so, with those little fellows to learn to let go their rational mind and find the wisdom of life within!

The chemical and electrical state of the brain when the mind is quiet, makes it available and receptive to information from within and around of itself. The chemical and electrical state of the brain when the mind is agitated makes it impossible for our intuition to function.

Meditation is a great tool, it enables us to live by our intuition, then we know effortlessly what to do, how to be, where to go, when to speak, when to reach out and when not to, when to stay silent, and when to stay with the anguish. Intuition is our greatest guide for living skillfully on the planet and it is the voice of the creating part of ourselves.
The mind quietens and becomes more peaceful, so your body relaxes. Meditaion is the state of simly being.

It has no religious connections, thuogh, it may be a profoundly spiritual experience. Through it, we find increased clarity, joy, spontaneity, creativity, wisdom, love, confidence, vitality, and humour. To find peace in ourself and in the world, to change our perception, and to seek for answers in ourselves.

There are places and people who exude a profound air of peace, whcih is a vibrating and rejuvenating energy, and it reminds us of something which we can find withing ourselves.

Meditations gives us greater presence of mind, that state of being when the mind is present to what IS rather then caught up in the inner world of idle mental chatter. We can then quiten the mind so that we can hear the voice of our intuition-our deep wisdom!

The more present we are embraacing each moment without judgment the more alive we become, connecting with the senses of the body can become our constant practice.

The mind is projecting into the world of what is not, by profecting into the future which has not happened yet. Access to our intuition is to everyone who brings mind to rest, it only funcions when the mind is quite.

The chemicals and hormones which produce stress, which our bodies secrete, there are also beneficial chemicals when we experience contemtment, peace, joy love and bliss. When the mind is anxious or stressed our bodies secrete many chemicals that are not beneficial to our health, they inhibit the natural functions of our bodies which directly affect ourhealth.

Our mind is not seperate from our body, our emotions are not separate from our body, we are human beings and as such we are an integrated whole!

The beliefs and thoughts we hold, affect the functioning of our bodies. The feelings that we have, whether acknowledged or ignored, have an effect on our bodies. They are our experience or reality and therefore are real for us, therefore each person's reality is unique to them.

We all have the capacity to change the beliefs we uphold, this gives us a tremendous point of power in that we can change the beliefs that cause us stress, depression, fear, resentment, hopelessness, powerlessness, frustration-into those which lay down the foundations for greater peace, fulfillment and joy in our lives.

In Meditation, the physiological responses to stress, have an opportunity to reestablish their natural equilibrium. We breath more slowly, deeper, the heart rate and blood pressure drop, our muscles relax and physiologcally we come to rest as the mind begins to settle and a sense of ease is experienced.

Brain imagery shows some of the biological changes that occur. It appears that it enables the brain to literally rewire itself in positive ways and that negative patterns of emotional reactions diminish, but it is not only the physical body that has sa natural tendency to heal. Our minds are likewise designe to let go of unuseful patterns that are not born of our essential nature.

Meditation returns us to the stillness that is beyond the mind's activity, to the silent observer within which witnesses without judgemnt preference resistance or aversion, it involves the conscious witnessing of our mind's activity, we let go and return to witnessing and being.

It is this calm and centred state fo mind which brings a profound hightened awareness and richness in ourselves and our daily life which is beyond words, and once we lose it, we are back into experiencing the tragedy of wanting to be happy at all costs, by means outside of ourselves, of that pleasure which is not what happiness is, so we reach out to medications and other means to sooth our discontent within.

Sorry for the rumbling, but I needed to get it out there!!

Apologies for all the errors in spelling....especially to the ones who find it profoundly offensive!!

 

[Heuristic]

Deja, I'm truly sorry you went through all that. You, unless I'm confusing you with someone else, said somewhere that you have celiac disease; we know what that is, what is required to avoid negative consequences, etc., because of Western medicine though.

And... here's the good news I suppose... as testing for it improves, it is becoming easier to detect. I believe that the FDA is now setting regulations, or has already, for which food products may be labeled gluten-free, and which may not, in order to better help those who have the condition to avoid gluten.

So I understand your anger. You feel like the doctors failed you. Perhaps they did. At one point celiac disease was difficult to recognize. But doctors generally are also doing right by you, as they recognize the problem, and are improving their detection and treatment of it; and the government is making it easier for you to determine what foods are and are not gluten-free.

As far as medicating the brain... like any other organ in the body, it can suffer defects, diseases, etc. Would you protest the use of insulin by a diabetic? The use of an antibiotic by someone with an infection? The use of a wide variety of anti-viral drugs by someone with HIV? Of course not. Well, sometimes the brain requires treatment as well; the problems can range from cancer to schizophrenia to various types of anxiety disorders to ADHD, etc. These are real medical problems, that require real treatment. I don't think you're opposed to these things... it sounds more like you have some lingering distrust, and anger, about doctors and medication, since in the past they were ineffective in your particular situation.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

You, unless I'm confusing you with someone else, said somewhere that you have celiac disease; we know what that is, what is required to avoid negative consequences, etc., because of Western medicine though.

Totally. Science is awesome. I'm not putting down science studying the body.

As far as medicating the brain... like any other organ in the body, it can suffer defects, diseases, etc. Would you protest the use of insulin by a diabetic? The use of an antibiotic by someone with an infection? The use of a wide variety of anti-viral drugs by someone with HIV? Of course not. Well, sometimes the brain requires treatment as well; the problems can range from cancer to schizophrenia to various types of anxiety disorders to ADHD, etc. These are real medical problems, that require real treatment. I don't think you're opposed to these things... it sounds more like you have some lingering distrust, and anger, about doctors and medication, since in the past they were ineffective in your particular situation.

No, I am not opposed to any one thing and I don't judge anyone else for doing whatever they feel is best for them. All I know is I trust my gut when it comes to what is best for me, and yeah I fully admit I am still angry about what I went through. I am not against all medicine at all, its more the "quick fix" mentality.

My problem with the part of what you said I put in bold is, I feel medication should be a LAST result for these things and IMO it is being handed out as a first try. Gluten was the cause of so many of my problems, and I feel anyone with ADHD like symptoms should try and gluten free diet first, or other dietary changes. I am in a celiac support group and a lot of the parents of small gluten intolerant children there talk a lot about how when their kids get gluten accidentally they freak out, throw uncontrollable tantrums, can't sit still, or have other difficulties. There is a link there and I bet there will be more studies to back it up at some point. Diet just effects so much and with how fucked off the standard american diet has become in the last 100 years its no wonder all these mental disorders are popping up.

I'm not saying it's the only cause, but like I said medication should be a last resort. And I don't only blame the doctors. People come in and see their doctor wanting a quick fix, they don't want to do the work of exercise and dietary changes, they want a pill that magically changes everything, especially after they see these pretty happy people skipping around in the tv commercials. Don't you see how the whole entire thing is just corrupt as hell. It's bigger than just the pharm industries desire to make money. Its a really messed up way of thinking that is plaguing our society.

 

[Enlitx]

True, but it's also a question of a lot of things, such as personal beliefs. Some of us like to stick to keeping it natural as possible.

But to be fair, I don't like things like St. Johns Wort for depression either, and I view it in basically the same way as I view zoloft. While I feel its a much better choice in that it's healthier and has no side effects, it still is just treating the symptom and not the underlying cause.

I guess I really don't see the point in keeping it natural. As I have already stated, science has provided us the tools to figure out exactly what is going on with natural supplements, therefore it is always better to try and isolate and use exactly what is working.

There are just as many natural things that can kill you or harm you as opposed to helping you. I mean, you could use poppy pods as a "natural" way to kill pain, but then you get all of the other alkaloids that have unwanted side effects. It just doesen't make sense to me.

 

[Enlitx]

Of course it's worthwhile. But it doesn't always yield a product with greater efficacy than the original herb.

By way of analogy, no one has been able to come up with a synthetic set of compounds whose taste could pass for natural chocolate. A way of capturing and processing digital video that's indistinguishable from the 'look' of celluoid, has proven a difficult engineering feat. Sometimes a substance in its raw and natural state gets closest to the desired effect.



Indeed, it is. If the effect is produced to the patient's satisfaction, it's a hit.

I am not opposed to using natural supplements if no other synthetic/isolated compound can work as well. That doesen't mean we should stop there though, we should just work twice as hard to determine why the natural compound is working better, and continue testing it until we have isolated the appropriate mixture of chemicals.

I really think the amount of natural remedies that are in this category is rather small. Certainly not enough to warrant a lifestyle that only utilizes natural medicine. I see people advocating natural over synthetic as the best option, when in reality you should only use natural compounds as a last resort, if every well researched drug has failed you.

 

[Enlitx]

MynameisnotDeja, I think you will find that most responsible doctors do advocate a healthy lifestyle as the best way to generate good health. I understand that some people view doctors as just pill pushers, but you can't let some experiences jade your whole view about the system. Some doctors do push pills, some will undermedicate you, and there are many in between.

Many studies have deomnstrated how proper diet, excercise, and healthy emotional relationships can improve health. These things are not relegated to alternative medicine. I just haven't seen any system that works better than the one we have now. It requires scientific testing, proof of efficacy, and safety trials before any treatment could be considered valid. Not only that, but scientists are always trying to determine exactly what is going on in the body so they can formulate better treatments. Keeping it natural or using alternative medicine will always retard your progress to those things that have already been produced naturally, with all of the good and bad effects. It has already been demonstrated just how much better health can become when you apply the scientific method to medicine, and it will only get better as we progress.

 

[Heuristic]

Deja,

I understand. I guess I would point out a few things:

I'm sure you know, but I'm going to say it out loud anyway. They can test for celiac disease; there's no need for kids to experiment with a gluten-free diet to see what happens. If a child presents with the kinds of symptoms you would see with celiac disease, that can be tested for. And it's unlikely a parent would JUST notice behavioral symptoms and not the other symptoms that accompany the disease.

I agree about the problem of people accidentally ingesting gluten. That's exactly why the FDA is in the process (or has---you probably know better than I do) of setting standards for what foods will labeled gluten-free and what won't.

Re over-medication of ADHD... sure. But I don't agree that SSRIs, various anti-psychotics, etc., are over-prescribed. In the case of SSRIs, they're not a quick fix, come with very noticeable and annoying side-effects, and therapy is always recommended as adjunct to them.

If anything, to be honest, I think our country continues to underestimate and ignore mental health problems, despite the increase in the last decade of prescriptions of psychiatric medications.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

They can test for celiac disease; there's no need for kids to experiment with a gluten-free diet to see what happens.

They can test, but some people are still gluten sensitive that don't actually have genetic celiac disease. That's the problem with the testing, it's not always accurate or at least fully accurate.

in reality you should only use natural compounds as a last resort, if every well researched drug has failed you.

Yeah.. well that was the case for me. *shrug*

MynameisnotDeja, I think you will find that most responsible doctors do advocate a healthy lifestyle as the best way to generate good health. I understand that some people view doctors as just pill pushers, but you can't let some experiences jade your whole view about the system. Some doctors do push pills, some will undermedicate you, and there are many in between.

You are right I am sure there are good doctors out there. There are plenty of doctors who work with both western and alternative medicine as well. The problem for someone like me, on the bottom of the economic food chain with no health insurance, is that I will never have ACCESS to one of these doctors. This is really something for another thread, but I also want to point out that the reason I went with alternative medicine is I simply couldn't afford throwing thousands (literally) of dollars away on doctors who did nothing to help me. Thousands of hard earned dollars spent and NO results. And this is over a 4-5 year period. And then spending relatively little on alternative medicine and I leap forward light years in health... So when it comes to keeping it all natural or alternative or whatever, I can't help feel the way I feel because of my experiences.

Had I had awesome health insurance, a good job and plenty of money to find a decent and intelligent doctor to help with my problems, perhaps I'd be singing a different tune. But the doctors at the low income clinics simply didn't give a shit about me nor did they seem to understand wtf was going on. So while there probably is decent medical care out there, its only for the privledged.

Until we are all equal and receive equal care, some of us are on our own. I'm just glad I've learned how to take care of my body on my own so I don't have to die because I can't afford a decent doctor.

Keeping it natural or using alternative medicine will always retard your progress to those things that have already been produced naturally, with all of the good and bad effects.

I can only speak for myself, but I have never had any bad effects. There may not have been clinical studies on everything, but a lot of these home remedies have been used for centuries. People pass things down through the generations for a reason.

If a child presents with the kinds of symptoms you would see with celiac disease, that can be tested for. And it's unlikely a parent would JUST notice behavioral symptoms and not the other symptoms that accompany the disease.

Thats not really true, a lot of people only have behavioral symptoms. Behavioral symptoms are at the top of my gluten reactions. Some people don't get the intestinal symptoms at all or skin symptoms either. I have a friend who's son is sensitive. He tends to bite other children when he is glutened and throw over the top temper tantrums.

But I don't agree that SSRIs, various anti-psychotics, etc., are over-prescribed. In the case of SSRIs, they're not a quick fix, come with very noticeable and annoying side-effects, and therapy is always recommended as adjunct to them.

Perhaps things have changed since I was a kid. I sure hope so. All I can say is, back in the day, they were over prescribed.

 

[Heuristic]

^ other things passed down through the generations: rain-dances, exorcism, bleeding as treatment, human sacrifice, and so forth.

I'm not exactly sure what you did to get better, but at some point, obviously, someone diagnosed you with celiac disease---and that's how you know to avoid all gluten. Otherwise... who knows.

Sometimes people win by using purely natural treatments. Sure. But they're just gambling.

Regarding testing for celiac disease, genetic testing is only one type of test. It's not as accurate as it could be, because a large percentage of those with the gene will not have celiac disease. But if you don't have the gene, then you don't have celiac disease, ruling it out as a diagnosis. However, there are several other tests that can be done as well. And obviously there is a way to definitively diagnosis.

That said, the behavioral problems you're referencing, even in the absence of any other physical symptoms, are certainly possible markers of a nutritional deficiency, which is something that can be run down, and should lead a doctor through further investigation to celiac disease.

Getting into medical school and becoming a doctor is a difficult proposition in the United States. You'll run into bad doctors sometimes, but the overwhelming majority are extremely competent, intelligent, and well-trained, regardless of whether you're paying with medicaid or medicare or you're paying with some amazing private insurance program.

They're certainly a better bet than going out and eating various plants without any scientific or medical guidance.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

I diagnosed myself with celiac. I never went to a doctor for it. Like I said, I don't have a doctor.
I couldn't afford the testing even if I wanted to (but there is no reason to get it now, I KNOW thats what it is)

Well technically I guess I didn't diagnose myself with official "celiac" but I diagnosed myself gluten intolerant. I learned to avoid all gluten as a last resort, because I was going to kill myself and someone suggested maybe it was celiac. So I went gluten free and it was like being reborn.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Part of the appeal of natural remedies is the cost, and the literally grassroots availability of many of them. It's empowering to be able to grow your own medications, or get them from somebody who completely circumvents Big Pharm.

Herbals are old-school medicine -- there are some (many) conditions for which they're just no match, that people in the olden days just didn't consider treatable problems. But I can see why many people, on principle, choose them over modern pharmaceuticals whenever possible. There will always be people who have reason to trust what's older and more traditional, more than what's new and innovative, even if the latter promises better results.

Granted in many cases this act becomes purely symbolic, rather than efficacious, with patients spending as much or more for bottled herbal preparations, made and sold by companies owned by big corporations. But I must say I like the idea of being able to grow something that can take care of my minor aches and pains on my windowsill, and Deja, I respect you taking diagnostic and treatment matters into your own hands, regarding celiac disease.

Enlitx, I agree with you that changes in diet and activity should be the centerpiece of any treatment regimen for most psychological diagnoses. Drugs, even when indicated, are mainly to enhance the effect of changes made to diet and lifestyle. I feel rather similarly about recreational drugs -- they can add a lot to many activities, but none are worth basing a whole lifestyle around.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Granted in many cases this act becomes purely symbolic, rather than efficacious, with patients spending as much or more for bottled herbal preparations, made and sold by companies owned by big corporations

True, and that's no less corrupt than the pharm industry. There is tons of corruption all around. The desire to make money off something immediately makes it less pure, IMO. I only buy herbs from a trusted person who has been operating a small, organic herb farm and a family owned business for many generations. I don't really take vitamins, beyond fish oil.

Most of the alternative medicine I practice is stuff that you do yourself through diet, or exercise or whatever. I don't fall for scam bullshit. Anything that's legit can be done yourself.