being happy and content

[Heuristic]

I don't mean that all knowledge within western medicine is a scam, of course not, I didn't put that right, and Im sorry.

Fair enough. It's easy to misstate oneself on forums like these.

I mean that the pharm industry is somewhat corrupted in that they do PUSH all these new medications they come up with. They do. Like I said, they wouldn't be advertising this shit on television if they weren't trying to make money. They would simply create the medications in the hopes of helping people and trust the doctors to offer it to patients who they felt truly needed it.

Don't you think?

Seeing these ads on television disgusts me. These pills should be a last resort and these bullshit filled commercials (usually showing beautiful, healthy looking people prancing around in fields of flowers or something equally unrealistic and enticing) push people into wanting that quick fix instead of actually getting healthy.

I see. Yeah, the commercials are manipulative. BUT, on the other hand, they are giving patients information about a potential treatment. A patient who might otherwise have never thought about seeing his doctor for a cholesterol test sees a commercial for Crestor, for instance, gets a cholesterol test, discovers that it's outrageously high, works out, eats better, comes back, and it's still outrageously high; takes Crestor, and it falls back to a normal range very quickly.

So while commercials are manipulative, they also alert patients will ailments about possible treatments, encourage them to see their doctors. It's a business, but it doesn't mean that they're selling a product that the patient would not benefit from.

But it's also completely lacking on the holistic side of things, which is why the best approach combines the knowledge of western, eastern, and alternative medicine. The problem there is a lot of western medicine docs don't have a clue about the other half of things. There are good docs out there, but until I find one, in general I don't trust the western docs because the ones I've dealt with didn't treat me well and didn't help me at all.

My personal view is that when I want bone surgery, I'll go to an orthopedic surgeon, and when I want life advice, I'll go to a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists and psychologists today generally---not all of them but generally---have a reasonably good grasp of what makes us tick.

Really? Most people I know do nothing but bitch and complain about everything.

Okay. Do they also laugh and joke?

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Okay. Do they also laugh and joke?

I get what you're saying, but once again, as per usual in this thread, it just comes down to my definition of what happiness is not = everyone else's. If you mean does almost everyone on earth enjoy themselves sometimes, sure! Totally, at least I hope so. But I do think this is different from a deep inner peace that lasts.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

That is an extremely broad assertion that is only valid in some cases. There are all kinds of other reasons people could end up with depression, including random mutations in DNA that codes for an enzyme that produces catecholamines, thus causing it to malfunction.



I don't know what you mean by grew a healthier structure. People are chemical manufacturing/manipulation bodies if biology and chemistry have taught us anything in the last 200 years.

The last part was pretty confusing, could you write it a little more clearly?

Your growing experiences and how they formed you or repress you, how your body/mind changes according to your immediate environment-how your instinctual/emotional and mental structure formation takes shape according to how you are forced to perform or denied expression etc. etc.

 

[ThaiDie4]

I think it's important that we all remember that the consensus of most neuroscientists and psychologists is that genetics AND environment play a role in many diseases\disorders (whatever you want to label depression as).

There is situational depression, and then there is biological depression. Everyone is temporarily sad or depressed at certain moments (a death of a loved one, loss of job, etc.). But you cannot deny that many people have constant depression, for no apperent overt reason... studies have shown that when there is a shortage of seretonin being produced, or seretonin is not being properly recieved by receptor sites, depression is the result. Environmental factors can certainly affect levels of depression, however the ultimate source is a brain malfunction.

If we look at happiness as an overall sense of joy in life, even when facing adversity, I don't see how a person with severe depression could feel this. They may have a positive outlook, which would certainly improve their mood, but in the end if the chemicals in the brain are off, this person will still be depressed.

Now, I certainly am not suggesting that we are powerless to depression... there are definently techniques that one can learn to gain control over negative thoughts, or at least some control. Every form of therapy has its own methods of how to do this, and some emphasis one end of free will (you can change if you want to!) vs. deteminism (your fate is pretty much already determined) more than others.

Basically, I am just trying to point out that there is a balance. Some people can live fullfilled lives using therapy technics, but others need medication... not everyone will respond to therapy in a postive way. Those with high levels of agression and low levels of openess typically will not respond well to therapy, and a lot of those traits are determined at least partically from genetics and are not easily changed.

I just think its best to maintain an eclectic view on matters like this. An all or nothing attitude rarely works for anyone.

And lastly, I appologize if this post seems off-topic, but I guess in my view of the semantics, I see "depression" as the opposite of "happiness", so I feel its important to address it.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

I guess the question is, sorta like the chicken or the egg. Which comes first?

Is the chemical imbalance causing the emotional problem?

Or is the emotional problem causing the chemical imbalance?

Or both?

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Life is always a two way "biofeedback" and not one way street! They are interelated!

 

[New]

Well, there reaches a point where it doesn't matter anymore. That's where I was at. And even with my chemical functioning somewhat stabilized, there are still problems that I need to sort out that I couldn't possibly sort out alone, but with someone tuned into me well enough to know what I know - someone who can keep up with me and possibly be a step ahead.

 

[ThaiDie4]

Deja- Very good question! I wonder this myself. As far as I know, those in the medical field don't really have an exact answer for what causes chemical imbalance.

I tend to think that chemical imbalance can occur despite favorable outside factors. This is based from my own expierences, which I realise have no sort of bearing on actual science, because I cannot see how exactly my brain chemistry works. But I was more depressed in a time of my life with few external problems than I am currently even though many environmental factors have worsened for me. I think a big difference is how I percieve things has changed slightly... and I cannot determine how this has happened.. do I percieve things more positively because my brain chemistry has changed, or is it due to something else external that I have overlooked??

Until science gives us a definate answer, I try my best to keep an open and balanced view of it. I think therapy can do wonders for some people, others have improved drastically with medication, some use both.

EDIT: LIvingInTheMoment, I totally agree!

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Well, there reaches a point where it doesn't matter anymore. That's where I was at. And even with my chemical functioning somewhat stabilized, there are still problems that I need to sort out that I couldn't possibly sort out alone, but with someone tuned into me well enough to know what I know - someone who can keep up with me and possibly be a step ahead.

Perfectly said! Love and devotion and a little bit of help from my friends!

 

[ThaiDie4]

Deja, I would also like to add that dispite the fact that certain aspects of our views differ (although my views are always changing, I don't think anything I believe is totally concrete) your positive attitude toward life is quite contagious I am currently stressing (its exam time!) but I've enjoyed reading your posts and getting insight to a POV that I'm not usually exposed to... its been a good pick me up!

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Yay! Happy to help in any way I can.

 

[Heuristic]

"A deep inner peace..." I don't happiness can really be described like that, in my view. I view laughing, joking, enjoying themselves with others, as important components to happiness; I also view striving towards goals, struggling, fighting, as important components to happiness.

And I view the usual complaining and bitching as unavoidable and minor things we all encounter in life. They're usually resolved with some humor.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Yes, sense of humor is so important! I don't care if you are the future leader of the free world or the antichrist himself, without the ability to laugh at yourself, you are taking yourself too seriously.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Newsflash: You are a chemical factory too. To be clearer, you are a composition of chemicals in a steady state that resists the forces of entropy. That is what the entire branch of physiology/medicine is based on.

100 years ago many people weren't cured of all kinds of diseases, did that mean science was wrong, or just not there yet in terms of research? How about 50 years ago, 25 years ago? There is a reason countries all around the world spend R&D money scientific research about our biochemistry, because it is real and extremely obvious for anyone who takes the time to look.

Diseases go into remission all the time, and people tend to credit god/Eastern Medicine/their dog... whatever they were around that they want to attach meaning to. Viruses can cause tumor remission and the person may think that it was that spiritual healer down the road. Remission is normal, that is a very poor example to support your ideas.

I refute people who don't actually put in the work and time to understand subjects but go around and act like they have. I am not hear to tell you your ideas are just as good as anyone else's, we are not in kindergarten anymore. It just isn't the way the world works.

Deseases also occur for many other reasons, this is why Medical Practitioners have been also using Alternative Medicine in combination these days more and more.

>I refute people who don't actually put in the work and time to understand subjects but go around and act like they have. I am not hear to tell you your ideas are just as good as anyone else's, we are not in kindergarten anymore. It just isn't the way the world works.

Hmm, my knowledge is not to be desplayed here, on a happiness thread!
This is a philosophical discussion and why it is in this forum and not in the health forum.

We had pharmaceautical companies, coming to the clinic and pushing their newest drugs to be pushed forward, and gave enormous amounts of royalties and many other benefirs, in order to do that, even expensive overseas trips. I am not sure if working with 16 medical preactitioners and having a background in it, whether I know or not that I am also a chemical factory. Unfortunately you dismiss everything else and that includes "the person" in the body....besides the chemistry.

I rather be considered in kindergarden, as this issue of happiness is demonstrated there most accurately-but I would definately not want you as a teacher in it.

There is a book by the way, called "Everything I needed to know I learned it in kindergarden".

Insults thrown to a person indiscriminately-display your ignorance of where that person comes from.

Don't take their different views as a proof of your imagined ignorance!
Nor their way of expressing themselves coming from a different language and translating constantly conceps which are the other way around in their own language and rushing while on the internet where the time is restricted.

When I am in a theosophical debate, I rather speak from the part of being in kindergarden if that is how you like to classify people.

 

[masonyoung]

Better Living Through Chemistry?

We had pharmaceautical companies, coming to the clinic and pushing their newest drugs to be pushed forward, and gave enormous amounts of royalties and many other benefirs, in order to do that, even expensive overseas trips. I am not sure if working with 16 medical preactitioners and having a background in it, whether I know or not that I am also a chemical factory. Unfortunately you dismiss everything else and that includes the person in a human body....besides the chemistry.
QUOTE]

Therein lies the truth...The 'kickback' in the Medical Profession is unconscionable. I use the term "Profession'' loosely, it's a business. They want you to need the drugs, they don't do well if you have 'peace of mind'.
Your emotions and intellect control your physical disposition. There 'are' predisposed cases of illness and 'dis-ease', but that's another topic. The World has deferred responsibilty for personal well-being to a bunch of money hungry suits. (and try spell check, it will improve your credibility)

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

^ Pfft. If I open a private practice, it's going to have a 'no solicitors' sign on the door. I'll be all about prescribing the less expensive treatment option, and am always going to emphasize dietary changes over drug regimens, when possible. Won't be hard if I'm serving underserved populations, who need to be frugal about health care.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

therein lies the truth...the 'kickback' in the medical profession is unconscionable. I use the term "profession'' loosely, it's a business.

qft.

 

[Heuristic]

Doctors aren't saints, but they're not simply businesspersons either.

Certainly it's already established practice to use the least possibly harmful treatment, which is effective. But frequently medication is indicated (people rarely visit a doctor's office on more than an annual basis unless something isn't going well), and I don't see the problem with it being prescribed.

As far as pharmaceuticals marketing their products... if they do so accurately, within regulations, I also have no problem with it. I do agree that pharmaceuticals should be further restricted from offering amenities to doctors, and I think that's being done now.

 

[Enlitx]

Your growing experiences and how they formed you or repress you, how your body/mind changes according to your immediate environment-how your instinctual/emotional and mental structure formation takes shape according to how you are forced to perform or denied expression etc. etc.

You are describing the field of developmental psychology. There is no need to say this is "beyond" science, as scientists have been studying this for decades and decades.

 

[Enlitx]

I think it's important that we all remember that the consensus of most neuroscientists and psychologists is that genetics AND environment play a role in many diseases\disorders (whatever you want to label depression as).

There is situational depression, and then there is biological depression. Everyone is temporarily sad or depressed at certain moments (a death of a loved one, loss of job, etc.). But you cannot deny that many people have constant depression, for no apperent overt reason... studies have shown that when there is a shortage of seretonin being produced, or seretonin is not being properly recieved by receptor sites, depression is the result. Environmental factors can certainly affect levels of depression, however the ultimate source is a brain malfunction.

If we look at happiness as an overall sense of joy in life, even when facing adversity, I don't see how a person with severe depression could feel this. They may have a positive outlook, which would certainly improve their mood, but in the end if the chemicals in the brain are off, this person will still be depressed.

Now, I certainly am not suggesting that we are powerless to depression... there are definently techniques that one can learn to gain control over negative thoughts, or at least some control. Every form of therapy has its own methods of how to do this, and some emphasis one end of free will (you can change if you want to!) vs. deteminism (your fate is pretty much already determined) more than others.

Basically, I am just trying to point out that there is a balance. Some people can live fullfilled lives using therapy technics, but others need medication... not everyone will respond to therapy in a postive way. Those with high levels of agression and low levels of openess typically will not respond well to therapy, and a lot of those traits are determined at least partically from genetics and are not easily changed.

I just think its best to maintain an eclectic view on matters like this. An all or nothing attitude rarely works for anyone.

And lastly, I appologize if this post seems off-topic, but I guess in my view of the semantics, I see "depression" as the opposite of "happiness", so I feel its important to address it.

I totally agree. I guess the vibe I get from people here is that just because there are techniques that can help depression that don't involve drugs, that somehow depression isn't a biochemical phenomenom. It still is. Environmental stimuli and throught patterns directly affect what balance of neurotransmitters you have in your head. So, all CBT therapy is really doing is to strengthen neural pathways that promote a more healthier balance of neurotransmitters. This idea falls in line with the quantam holographic view of the brain because keeping your brain in certain quantam states (thinking happy thoughts, learning how to deal with problems, becoming a more balanced person), thus causing molecules to stay in an excited state, causing ion efflux and eventually strengthening neural networks.

That is why you can give a person an SSRI and see some improvement, because you are releasing feel good chemicals all over the brain. The reason this isn't a cure a lot of the time and CBT is necessary is because without the SSRI, you will revert back to your neural pathways that don't stimulate the proper neurotransmitter release.

Again, this isn't outside of science. Living a balanced life and being healthy isn't relegated to some spirtual field that science could never challenge. So many people here have said that I am too analytical and that I won't understand things like this. In reality, I am trying to understand these things in a much more precise way that can be used in standardized treatment. Drafting a protocol based on empirical data will result in a much better method to treat depression instead of listening to one person here and there tell you what they did to get better, with actual results varying wildly.

I am not saying that one person helping another through personal experience can't be helpful, but trying to take it to the next step and consolodating a lot of people's personal experience, determing the mechanism behind their success, and researching the physiology behind it will result in much better ideas.