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Becoming understanding of spirituality

Pans-Advocate said:
And to claim that nobody has ever or will ever describe it more "closely" is very obviously silly.
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where did i make this claim? there are thousands of descriptions given to us by realized beings, all i said was that tolle uses the most accessible and clearest language possible, rather than using allegory, metaphor or burdening his messages with undue complexity.
my point was only that your pronouncement that eckhart tolle is "insufferably simple" was backwards. i did not discount the teachings of others in any way. and im always opened to checking out new ideas on the subject.. where can i get that pdf?


Changed said:
It's ignorant because I questioned the motivations of a religious figure? I guess we should just buy what he says because he says is so elegantly, right?
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no it's ignorant because a) tolle is not a "religious figure," and b) to reduce his work to a "jumble of pre-existing philosophies" you are either not as familiar with his work as you would have us believe or you have just missed the point entirely.
either way it was an obnoxious statement. if you would like to start a debate questioning his motivations, why not present a logical argument for it and open it up for discussion rather than just posting snide comments and trying to get a reaction out of people?


Raw Evil said:
Whoa there. At the end of the day, he's just a person who's figured something out, and is explaining it to other people - and while that's a commendable action, I certainly don't think it comes anywhere near grounds for worship.
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raw do you even know what god realization is? of course hes a just a person, in fact hes so real hes more ordinary than most people.. which, paradoxically of course, is what makes him special. where exactly did i call for him to be worshiped? judging from your other thread you seem to be confused about what enlightenment actually is.
 
Doc, I think you're assuming that we all share certain understandings that haven't really been established yet in this discussion. I'm pretty sure all of us share a lot of the beliefs that you're putting forth, but the way you're describing them is not the same as the way we would, which is where the apparent "disagreements" are arising.

First of all, you did claim that:
DocLucid said:
he comes as close as you possibly can to explaining the nature of consciousness in words.
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I took this to mean that you believe he has done a better job than anyone ever has or will ("as close as you possibly can"), which obviously is not a supportable statement ... nobody here has read everything that has been written on the subject and it's silly for any of us to make that claim about anyone. "As close as you possibly can" is simply not the right way to describe what you're trying to say. That's OK, I think we all kind of get what you mean anyway, I'm just being nitpicky. Don't mind me.

I share the view that Tolle's work can be reduced to a "jumble of pre-existing philosophies," but that's really just because the truth of the matter has been presented in different ways by a variety of different people, and jumbling together a bunch of pre-existing philosophies is the only way to get to the truth ... sure, for someone with clear perception, much of what is true is very much self-apparent, but everyone's got their own history of exposure to different ideas, so there's no way to really get straight to the truth without wading through a bunch of other people's writings and philosophies, and anyone who DOES get straight to the truth is going to find it very, very difficult to describe it or reference it without parroting a lot of stuff that older philosophers have said.

When you say "do you even know what god realization is," I think you're making the assumption that everyone's going to use the same vocabulary as you to describe what you believe, which is just not going to work. There is no verbal description of what "god realization" or "enlightenment" ACTUALLY is. It's an experience. To describe it IS to be wrong about what you are saying. It is, as they say, ineffable. Word choice is not a useful thing to argue over in this discussion.

Bottom line is, I think we're all on the same page ... there are just a few semantic barriers because we haven't established a common vocabulary yet.
 
Speak for yourself, man, I love this shit! Getting really precise and particular about the language we use when we talk about God and spirituality and that kind of stuff is one of my favorite things to do.
 
yea lol i dunno man i guess im not really up for dissecting these posts line for line anymore. just thought it would be interesting to have a discussion but we're clearly not on the same page and now its just getting insufferably complicated.
 
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Some people similar to Eckhart Tolle that may help are Adyashanti and then I also love the "Papaji lineage" Papaji met the famous Ramana Maharshi and had an awakening and then many seekers went to India to find him a few of which awoke and started teaching after being with him namely Gangaji, and Mooji. Mooji being my favorite as he is such a sincere, genuine guy hes funny, wise, and has a great Jamaican voice and his words just ring truth.

I love hearing the truth simply, and with complexity exploring the various pointers and nuances of teachings. Its like a love affair with truth. But all the while knowing the words, the books will never add anything to you nor really help "you" get anywhere. Because ultimately you are already awake, as so many say in so many different ways you are already that. Thou art that. You are that which is seeking. We are the awareness or consciousness or God in which everything happens... so the seeking, the reading, the bliss, the getting it, the not getting it, the pain, the love, sensations, thoughts, emotions, teachings, the world it all appears in what we timelessly are. What we are is not an experience its whats aware of of all things coming and going yet it is not an object or a concept.

Nisargadatta Maharaj is another check out the famous I am that for starters. I got off topic and went on and on but eh hope this helps someone.
 
@Doc: I just lent a friend my copy of Prometheus Rising; in exchange he lent me his copy of The Power of Now. I'll let you know what I think.
 
anonymous1419 said:
interesting. do tell.
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I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of the Zen koan? The 'Master' asks the 'Student' a question that cannot be answered with rational thought: "Show me your original face before your mother and father were born." The beginning student thinks about the question day and night, attempting to find a logical answer. He goes back to this room at night, straining to find the answer to the question. He tosses and turns in his bed, dreaming of an answer to the question. The next day in his one-on-one talk with the 'Master,' the 'Student' answers in the most logical way he can. The 'Master' immediately shoots down his answer. Frustrated, the student continues this cycle for days and days. Finally, he comes to his interview with no answer. The 'Master' asks him the same question and out of frustration he simply smiles. The 'Master' smiles and says, "That is it...."

Life is a koan. You think you can solve all your problems or worries rationally-- but you cannot. Separating yourself from your problems or your enlightenment is the cause for your strife. Once you realize that the only way to overcome your troubles or 'attain enlightenment' is to simply let go, you'll be shocked at how easily attainable your goals were all along.

I encourage you to go to the library or bookstore, today, and read Alan Watts' book This is It. Keep in mind what you've read in this thread and you should find something in Watt's words.
 
Changed said:
Life is a koan. You think you can solve all your problems or worries rationally-- but you cannot. Separating yourself from your problems or your enlightenment is the cause for your strife. Once you realize that the only way to overcome your troubles or 'attain enlightenment' is to simply let go, you'll be shocked at how easily attainable your goals were all along.
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I find this very interesting because (and here I go thinking rationally again, but...) it seems that there are certain crossroads that every human being will face in his or her lifetime, something that demands making a tough choice. In these situations, how is the answer to enlightenment just "letting go"? It would seem that if you followed this philosophy you'd be in over your head in dilemmas, and while they may not necessarily bother you, they would still affect your life negatively.
 
Once 'you' realize that your problems aren't really problems at all, there is no dilemma or stress.



This is the problem with words: I cannot sit here and describe to you the entire process of becoming enlightened. I can tell you what it is like, but I can't make you see what it is. You simply have to experience it for yourself. You do this by ceasing your searching and simply realizing that right now, and in every moment, you are where you are suppose to be. Like an addict that cannot see the damage he is doing to himself, you will only realize these truths when you 'hit rock bottom.'
 
i disagree. you do not have to hit rock bottom to realize enlightenment anymore.. psychedelics can show you exactly what enlightenment is because they temporarily put you in an egoless state. many people have stumbled onto the truth accidentally simply through their exposure to psychedelic drugs like lsd.

the problem is that this taste of enlightenment will wear off after several hours.. but at least then you have an understanding of what enlightenment really is, of what you really are. the experience leaves you with a much clearer idea of what you have been looking for... and what you have been looking for has been there in the background all along.
 
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funny to see the crap you write, thinking you're right, then come back to it (or have in come back to you), and feel embarrassed for thinking you knew any of the answers at all...
 
Changed speaks truth.

There's no "practice" for enlightenment. Practice is time, it's a "getting somewhere", and ultimately, you're either here now or you're not, there's no "I'm going to reach enlightenment... If I practice enough"

I think the most intelligent question you could ask yourself is "who" is it that wants to be enlightened? Who is it that wants to feel the spiritual bliss? Because if you're identified with that "who", then you are the desire, and you are not free. But if you watch the thinker it instead, you realize that the thinker and the thought are one and the same. You realize that it wasn't you who desired spiritual bliss. It stops being "I'm listening to my thoughts" and it becomes "listening to my thoughts". There's no distance.

Be free from the desire of freedom.

It's an impossible concept to grasp, it can only be understood.
 
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